Are POF good guns, great guns, or some of the best of the best?

I had a Patriot Ordnance Firearms upper and I really liked it.  It was a very good quality upper.  It was their Gen 1 18" upper.

I was going to buy a POF rifle from EE a few years back. I called POF and asked if they would still honor the warranty....the guy laughed and said why would they honor the warranty or a POF gun sold via private party. I understand they cannot vouch for the rifle but perhaps offer to sell me a warranty or offer to check it out, but nada.

Kinda turned me off.

This prompted me to pose a question on the POF Industry forum regarding their warranty. I own a P-415 that has been nothing but 100% reliable. I believe you get what you pay for and even though POF is not a household name(ie. Colt, KAC, LWRCI, HK) their product is comparable. That being said, there's something wrong if a company doesn't stand behind their product regardless of whom, when or where it was purchased.
I'd like to give POF the benefit of the doubt in the above instance and hope this occurred during that period when their CS was very questionable. If this is their warranty policy then one must take that into consideration in the decision making process.

OP, if you like the design, then go with a Hogan Rifle as they are the original designers & manufacturers of this system.  The customer service is top notch.  Their rifles are the best imo.  Their pricy, but you get what you pay for.

Hope you get a positive answer! This was back in August-Sept of 2010 so perhaps it was a transitional period for them. I was bummed because I really wanted this rifle too. *Ended up buying an LWRCI

I would like to know if the owner of Hogan guns agrees with the complete statement you just made for him-"they-(Hogan) are the original designers & manufacturers of this system" If he stands by that statment, I would like to see it here for all to see-made by him personally. I have nothing against Hogan Rifles, but I'm getting tired of hearing both sides of the story and someone not from the company address this again and again. No offense to you Artic warrior, and I know the CS problems of the past that you had regarding POF-I understand your frustrations.

It sure would clear up a lot of questions if Paul came on and made the same statement you have. I don't believe he can, but maybe I'm wrong. Let's find out. There is no argument about POF's on and off CS, but its beyond old to hear the statement you make without the owner chiming in and making the same claim once and for all.

MP

MPaul,

Paul isn't the owner of Hogan Guns, Robert Hogan is.  From my understanding, Robert isn't the original designer of the rifle, Chris DeSomma is.  Robert Hogan dies hold the patent rights to this rifle design though.  IDK, perhaps I'm wrong and will gladly correct my statement if I am.  Chris is Frank's brother and he left POF to go and work with Hogan.  That should tell you something right there about Franks personality.  Hogan used to manufacture the parts for POF.  All POF did was slap it together and ship it out.  I dn't recall seeing Robert posting on here.  That man is busier than Charlie Sheen with an 8 ball in a hotel-room full of hookers.  I'll give him this though, he's dedicated as I called up on a Sunday a couple months ago expecting to leave a message.  He personally answered the phone, ON A SUNDAY.  Those guys work their asses off.  I don't work for them or get paid by them, I'm just a very satisfied and loyal customer.  Their level of customer service should be an example for the industry to follow.  

Hogan Patent

It appears the proof is in the pudding. My post on the POF Industry inquiring about their warranty has been deleted with no reply.
Looks like a good time to sell mine and join arctic warrior on the POFs suck bandwagon.

I have a POF. I bought it from another member. I had to send it in to POF. Got it back 3 weeks later. No charge and I told them I bought it from a forum member. If the Hogan is anything like the POF then they are top quality rifles.

I'm not disputing your bad experience with POF. It was the original design of the rifle and thats where my comments were directed to. I am aware of Frank's presonality, but it still doesn't dispute that POF builds top quality rifles that will hold their own with an average bolt action rifle and are 100% reliable. They are not going anywhere. If Hogan does the same, good for them. I have seen some major issues with both in the past that don't need to be drug up here again. The quality of mine are second to none and they do pick up the phone as much as any other AR builder in this industry right now. Thier all busy as you descibe, but I must admit I've never called them on a Sunday before. My issue is still the original design-Hogan did not design it like you made it sound.

MP

I must retract this post, read this thread and you will understand why.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_206/228516_.html&page=1&anc=1902321#i1902321

edit: OP, IMHO one of the best of the best.

You are a well balanced man.  I like that.    Actually, Frank didn't design the rifle.  His brother Chris was instrumental in that IIRC.  Chris left POF in the split and went to the Hogan side of things.  That right there is a monumentally huge statement.  When one brother leaves, takes the design, and goes over to help grow the competition, then there was a problem.  If you follow the court proceeding and law suites, you will see that POF failed to pay their bills, among other issues, which resulted in Robert Hogan refusing to supply POF until paid in full, then parting ways.  Hogan Guns holds the patents to that rifle design.  They are the only legal manufacturers of that exact design.  I never would have taken the stance that I have taken had Frank not treated me like such a POS.  

Ok, so let me get this straight once and for all. POF started a company building piston guns, using Hogan's equipment-(not rifle builder then) to manufacture the sub-parts. There were legal and finacial issues that needed to be addressed because these two deciced to part ways-and I could enter in multiple senerios here. For the sake of bandwidth, I won't address it any further for now. Now Hogan has POF's original patent design and POF is no longer able to build rifles designed like they started in the beginning. are you claiming this is the case?

The only reason I am not letting this go is because I don't want future buyers that are interested in buying POF rifles to be deturred because of unclear facts. Customer service might be another issue altogether for the potential buyer, but it's not because POF is going out of business and that they do not make a killer piston driven rifle,or don't honor thier own warranty. Thats the only point I'm trying to make here and I know there are others out there that agree with me but don't want to waste time here. I have held my comments long enough until now but it's gotten beyond old. Lets put the truth out there for all to see is all I'm asking here. Is POF still building the same rifle they designed from the beginning?

MP

Edit: I own or have owned many AR's over decades, and most have been great firearms. I don't work, or are related to POF but know of the company and it's progression and split. I happen to think it is one of the best piston rifles out there today. If you don't like the company, that's your decision-but you have made a couple of claims that I believe to be inaccurate about the original design and who owns rights to what now. If Hogan has the rights, then how can POF still manufacture the  same rifle as before-unless someone has made minor changes enough to clear a patent for themselves.

If this is the case, and I think it is, then I wish both companies the best of luck in the future. The overall design of this piston system and the barrels are up there with the best.

One thing is sure, I will never spend a dime with them, Scouts Honor.

Interesting...Makes one wonder though, is this for show, (as we know all good politicians are good at saying one thing) or a true business practice?

I guess the true test would be to call, explain that you purchased a gun from EE, tell them them the piston rod or something broke, and see if they cover it for free.

But interesting thread none the less. Those Hogan rifles look sweet.

Yes this is what I did. They told me to send it in. It was fixed and sent back under warranty. They were as good as any other company. It's kind of odd to see the same couple of members trashing them. Ok, you guys had a terrible experience with POF. Get over it. It's obvious POF and Hogans are the same rifle. I believe the Hogan rail is just fugly. So POFs best partner best friend Hogan steals POFs son in the split. Maybe it was money. Who knows. It says nothing about quality.

Is it common for AR15, etc manufacturers to warranty second, third owner's? That would be sweet! However, in 50 years of purchasing stuff with moving parts, I can't recall anyone (except autos) offering that type of warranty. Lots of folks sell due to screwing something up and hope the buyer doesn't find out until too late!!

That's not true. Most people sell things to move on to something else. My experience has been. That most manfufacturers with lifetime warranties will cover things. Unless its obvious that it was operator error.

what about the warranty questions posted here?  

oh and find me a 2 port brake in the drawer...lol

Merry Christmas all

what about the warranty questions posted here?  

oh and find me a 2 port brake in the drawer...lol

Merry Christmas all[/quote]


Long story short... I posted the warranty question in the POF Industry forum. The post was deleted and I responded with another post/rant ending it with I'm done with POF. Frank replied with an apology for "mistakenly" deleting my initial post. He said the deletion was meant for haters that had replied in the thread. He then went on a very in-depth explanation of how POF has in the past and will continue to stand behind/warranty their product line. After reading his response I came back to this thread and retracted a negative post leaving the link to Frank's post. Unfortunately the original thread with all of Frank's comments about their warranty has been altered.
No matter, I saved it and will post it as soon as I finish this post.

POF-USA Industry Partner
Joined: Apr 2003
AZ, USA Member
Posts: 1343

Link To This Post
User Blog  Media Collections  100% (24) Posted: Today 8:02:20 AM PST Quoted:
As a POF owner I asked a very simple question regarding POF's warranty only to discover not only was no reply given but the thread was removed. What gives? Only someone from POF can do such a thing. So your answer is to not answer the question and hopefully no one else will ask again and if they do will you delete the thread again? A real class act, not that you give a damn but you just lost another customer.


Sorry, We were trying to banned others that attack us and erased post by mistake.  

We don't have a issue with questions, but if it turms into a attack and continued
slandering of our company we WILL ban the person. Anyone can ask anything
of us. We are unable to use this forum in a big way with us needing to focus on
calls and emails at the company from customers. Please contact us direct anytime.

We have been very busy growing our business all year long,
moving into our new factory, adding more and more equipment, providing more and more
jobs for Americans in need of work, and we will continue to do do so if our government doesn't
take away our right to Bear Arms which is the most import issue we all should care about. We are all like
minded here and to attack each other is a waste of time when we all believe in the right to bear arms.
We now more then ever should stand together as one before we all lose our Freedoms.

Do we warranty all our products? YES
Do we stand behind our products? YES
Have we also stood by our products since 2004 being the First gas piston system.on the commerical market? YES
Have we never stood by our products? This answer would be NO
We have also assisted customers that purchased counterfeit products, thinking they purchased POF-USA products.

So I would state we stand by our products and assist our customers.
If you have a question please email us at: [email protected] or call our factory at 623-561-9572
If you need to contact me direct email me at: [email protected] or Call me oon my cell at: 602-451-1033.
I have always given my personal cell number out. Why because we have nothing to hide about or be ashamed of.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Frank
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc.
www.POF-USA.com
623-561-9572 wk.
623-321-1680 fax



God Bless America

Long story short... I posted the warranty question in the POF Industry forum. The post was deleted and I responded with another post/rant ending it with I'm done with POF. Frank replied with an apology for "mistakenly" deleting my initial post. He said the deletion was meant for haters that had replied in the thread. He then went on a very in-depth explanation of how POF has in the past and will continue to stand behind/warranty their product line. After reading his response I came back to this thread and retracted a negative post leaving the link to Frank's post. Unfortunately the original thread with all of Frank's comments about their warranty has been altered.
No matter, I saved it and will post it as soon as I finish this post.[/quote]

no worries, I only posted that cause a pof rep was here and failed to answer that question which I find odd

LALALALALALALALALALA!      

I own a POF P415 and a POF upper that I run on my registered receiver.  They are outstanding weapons. Both are extremely accurate and reliable.  Never had a reason to use POF's customer service.

I have used their CS before..it was always Chris helping me...they always took care of me...spoke with Frank on occasion...was always professional....

Arcticwarrior-still waiting for an answer from you on this question-not letting this go on-you must be the spokesman or am I mistaken-Let me repeat again-"Ok, so let me get this straight once and for all. POF started a company building piston guns, using Hogan's equipment-(not rifle builder then) to manufacture the sub-parts. There were legal and finacial issues that needed to be addressed because these two deciced to part ways-and I could enter in multiple senerios here. For the sake of bandwidth, I won't address it any further for now. Now Hogan has POF's original patent design and POF is no longer able to build rifles designed like they started in the beginning. are you claiming this is the case?"

I am still waiting for your's or Hogans official responce to this. This is the only question I am asking. You are responding like you have the final answer. If not it sounds like a C&D to me-lets get it out there for all to see.

MP

MP, I am not an official spokesperson for anyone.  I simply like Hogan Guns as after I got screwed & received not even good enough to be considered third rate customer service by Frank DeSomma and POF-USA, the guys over at Hogan treated me very well and sold me a beautifully functioning machine for a rifle.  Their level of customer service was/is excellent.  I don't, nor can I speak for Hogan Guns.  I have stated before, I am not compensated in any way, I'm just a guy that is a loyal customer.  I try to spread the word about them and how good they are as I'd love to see them get more business.  I'm a very satisfied customer & believe in Hogan Guns is all.  I detest the way that I was treated by Frank and simply have wanted to share my experience with others when asked.  They can make up their own minds from there.  I don't respond as I have the final answers.  I used GOOGLE to search Maricopa County Superior Court Records on this matter as could you.  They are open and available online for you to read.  I received a lot of answers to a lot of questions which helped me draw my own conclusions.  

I haven't answered your question or gone into any long explanations recently because Frank DeSomma went and cried to the mods about me.  He doesn't like people talking negatively about his company.    I am trying to be nice as I don't want to offend his delicate nature.........

BTW, if Frank had ever called me back to apologize for treating a customer like a POS or tried to rectify the situation in the first place, I wouldn't have taken the stance that I have today.  The man must think that his customers are beneath him.  All it would have taken would have been a simple call to explain everything, and to try and make it right.  However; I think his pride got in the way.  It's pretty sad actually.......  Customer service, some people have it and some people don't.......  That's all I have to say on this.

The man behind the design is Robert Davies....

I have an LE friend who is sponsored by POF and loves them. Of course, he gets them for free.

I cannot speak on POF's current position, but I can tell you that Hogan is top notch and they're customer service skills are second to none.  I see Arcticwarrior posting about them all the time and I completely understand why.  My search for a good 308 began with POF as well.  Like most, I could not get over their piss poor attitude and lack of communication skills.  After speaking with my new friends at Hogan, I quickly realized that we spoke the same language.  We are in complete agreement regarding what makes a high quality weapon and what it takes to support the end user, and I do run the hell out my H308 every chance I get.  I have never dealt with a better group of guys in the industry.  I definitely consider Paul and Chris both my friends.

The history between the 2 companies is immaterial to me.  Hogan are my go-to guys when it comes to this weapons platform.