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Posted: 12/17/2011 7:30:34 AM EST
Which piston ar is better lwrc or pws?
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Posted: 12/17/2011 7:34:13 AM EST
Depends. In terms of short stroke pistons many will say LWRC. In terms of long stroke systems PWS.

I'd say though if I had to pick out of those two I'd go for LWRC. More features and superb quality.
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Posted: 12/17/2011 7:39:45 AM EST
Best for you to decide that for yourself, but I would:

1. Take a look at LWRC's forum for owner feedback.
2. Take a careful look at standard features of each; I can't speak to the PWS but while LWRCs may appear expensive, many of their standard features (rail, ACB, NiB coatings, Magpul, etc.) are options you would probably end up adding to another rifle so actual cost is reasonable.

I own two (purchased through Northwest Tactical; superb CS) and use a third M6A2 and have been thoroughly happy with each.
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Posted: 12/17/2011 8:41:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2011 8:41:51 AM EST by Sleeper396]
LWRCI all day. I like my charging handle to not be attached to my BCG.
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Posted: 12/17/2011 10:01:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2011 10:04:58 AM EST by Wulfmann]
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Best for you to decide that for yourself, but I would:

1. Take a look at LWRC's forum for owner feedback.
2. Take a careful look at standard features of each; I can't speak to the PWS but while LWRCs may appear expensive, many of their standard features (rail, ACB, NiB coatings, Magpul, etc.) are options you would probably end up adding to another rifle so actual cost is reasonable.

I own two (purchased through Northwest Tactical; superb CS) and use a third M6A2 and have been thoroughly happy with each.


I don't know what ACB is but PWS has the others you mentioned so that hardly is a plus.
Look at the PWS web site,m see what it has included and compare that. mapul, quad rail, stock, grip, 30 rnd Pmag and back up sites come standard on a PWS

They are different concepts/designs. The LWRC is heavier and is muzzle heavy meaning it is not neutrally balanced which is one of the best things about a PWS
It is very light and because the piston is attached to the top of the bolt carrier it balances like a DI gun, a big plus.
The PWS piston is based on the AK47 piston which has proven very reliable in 65 years of use

LWRC is a fine weapon, well made and functions superbly but it does cost considerably more.

You might also consider the SIG 516 which happens to be even cheaper than the PWS and is an excellent AR/M4, very accurate and with rave reviews (well, except one, LOL)


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Posted: 12/17/2011 10:37:37 AM EST
This is a case of "BMW vs. Mercedes".......both are very good, and have lots of features. The difference between the BMW (PWS) and the Mercedes (LWRC), is the attention to detail.

I love my PWS MK114....very light and balanced....be advised though, that the coatings on the PWS's BCG and such are NOT FailZero EXO, but are MicroSlick, which is still very good.

My LWRC M6A2 DEA and M6-SPR MOD 0 have a noticeably higher tier of fit and finish than my MK114. You cannot have a $2300 rifle for $1500......

Either one will serve you very well, but if I had the funds, I'd go with an LWRC.

Also, take into consideration that PWS's barrels are of the 1/8 twist variety, and LWRC's are of the 1/7 variety. That may influence your decision.

The PWS also uses a proprietary barrel nut, which means your stuck with using PWS's rail if you do for some reason want to change it out.

LWRCs can fit a Samson rail, and a couple others IIRC. Also take into account that the PWS barrel is NOT free floated, whereas every LWRC except the M6-SL is free-floated.

Either one will serve you well, and are outstanding rifles. Just make sure you know which features you want, and take into consideration which rifles have the features you want.
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Posted: 12/17/2011 11:10:11 AM EST
Six to one, half-a-dozen to another.

They are both extremely well made and designed, very accurate with bomb-proof reliability and excellent quality control.

I prefer PWS, but that's personal preference. If the AR-Fairy snuck into my safe and swapped out my Mk216 and Mk116 with LWRC I certainly wouldn't cry about it.
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Posted: 12/17/2011 11:15:48 AM EST
Airborne, excellent comparison.

The PWS can not be free floated as it is really almost the opposite in piston design.
That is; the piston is not sprung in a forward cylinder with a rod attached that drives back the BCG like the LWRC (LMT, POF, Sig, SR556 etc etc).
Instead the entire cylinder goes from the gas port to the chamber and the piston is attached to the BCG and is driven back as an entire unit.

Only LWRC owners have considered this inferior and history proves them wrong.

That is not to say the present LWRC piston/BCG is inferior to the AK/Daewoo/PWS design.
I would have complete confidence in the current (note I said current) LWRC BCG/piston.

However, be sure you buy the latest LWRC design because while some say the earlier designs were fine they changed them for a reason.
When i see a good deal on an LWRC and no mention of when it was made or which BCG it is I will ask for a photo of the BCG and every single time it is the older now outdated design that has been replaced.

I doubt you would be disappointed in either gun like driving home in the BMW or Benz you will drive with a smile in either.

Hmmmm, I chose the PWS myself but drive a Mercedes. Guess that was my compromise!!


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Posted: 12/17/2011 1:54:44 PM EST
as long as you get a late 08 and newer, lwrc is absolutely fine with respects to timeline

air has a nice comparision but forgot the barrel. lwrc barrels are top of the line and designed to last much longer than other barrels, dispense the heat more evenly, and have other features.

the pws I held and fired was well balanced and I'm sure a fine firearm however, lwrc has been seen battle and passed the SEAL otb test.....
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Posted: 12/17/2011 4:42:05 PM EST
As mentioned, both systems are good.....I own LWRC and love em.
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Posted: 12/18/2011 4:38:50 AM EST
Unfortunately, LWRCi is referred to on many forums as being "heavy" or "not balanced" for all of the wrong reasons. Many individuals often refer to the "piston system", stating it causes the entire rifle to be heavy and out of balance. This is simply not true.

Why are they slightly heavier?

The reason that an LWRC rifle is a little more front heavy is because of the barrel profile. Nothing else. They use a heavier barrel profile because they want durability during sustained fire. Go to You Tube and watch the video of them running mag after mag through one of their uppers. Try and do that with a government profile barrel. Personally, I prefer a slightly heavier barrel profile, as it allows for a more rigid barrel, which is said to improve accuracy and does not heat up as fast during sustained fire. Also, balance can be fairly subjective, as my rifles with heavier barrel profiles "feel" more balanced to me than a government profiled rifle.

It seems like almost every post I see from Wulfman, he is discussing how heavy and out of balanced LWRC is and how well balanced his PWS rifle is. My personal opinion is comparing LWRC to PWS is not really a fair comparison. Mentioned above is the ACB, coatings, etc... but where LWRC really shines is their barrels. They are some of the best in the business.

And for those that do not wish to have a heavier profiled barrel... LWRC released the M6-SL model. My guess is this upper has the balancing "feel" that many are looking for.
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Posted: 12/18/2011 5:17:01 AM EST
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Posted: 12/18/2011 8:02:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By vugger:
Unfortunately, LWRCi is referred to on many forums as being "heavy" or "not balanced" for all of the wrong reasons. Many individuals often refer to the "piston system", stating it causes the entire rifle to be heavy and out of balance. This is simply not true.

Why are they slightly heavier?

The reason that an LWRC rifle is a little more front heavy is because of the barrel profile. Nothing else. They use a heavier barrel profile because they want durability during sustained fire. Go to You Tube and watch the video of them running mag after mag through one of their uppers. Try and do that with a government profile barrel. Personally, I prefer a slightly heavier barrel profile, as it allows for a more rigid barrel, which is said to improve accuracy and does not heat up as fast during sustained fire. Also, balance can be fairly subjective, as my rifles with heavier barrel profiles "feel" more balanced to me than a government profiled rifle.

It seems like almost every post I see from Wulfman, he is discussing how heavy and out of balanced LWRC is and how well balanced his PWS rifle is. My personal opinion is comparing LWRC to PWS is not really a fair comparison. Mentioned above is the ACB, coatings, etc... but where LWRC really shines is their barrels. They are some of the best in the business.

And for those that do not wish to have a heavier profiled barrel... LWRC released the M6-SL model. My guess is this upper has the balancing "feel" that many are looking for.


You say that as if I have no experience with LWRC rifles but I do and think they are great.

As for the heavier profile barrels well I hate to break it to you but PWS uses the heavier profile barrels not the thin ones.

The balance reason is simple:
Put the mechanism up over the gas block and the extra weight offsets the balance toward the muzzle (LWRC)
Put the mechanism over the BCG and the weight remains neutral. (PWS)

This is a design issue not a manufacturing issue and I think the Mercedes comparison for LWRC is spot on.
They are beautifully made guns and one day I will buy one for that reason alone. Of course they shoot like a Benz drives.

This does not have to be one good one bad. They are both good but have some different attributes.

Everybody should own one of each!!


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Posted: 12/18/2011 10:56:19 AM EST
LWRCi SPR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love Mine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: 12/18/2011 2:41:57 PM EST
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.
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Posted: 12/18/2011 2:48:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By coloccw:
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.


I don't mean to come across as questioning you or instigating you but I find your reasoning to be odd. LWRC has outstanding cs, accuracy and their barrels are now being copied by most manufacturers. In fact, they were one of the first to nitride the barrels and more (some discussed here) with respects to barrel manufacturing.

Note, I am currently looking at pws for a .308 so I'm not anti pws by any stretch. I just kinda chuckled cause people usually say what you said about lwrc that's all.



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Posted: 12/18/2011 3:32:08 PM EST
I recently picked up an LWRC M6A3 as my first piston gun. I have a Noveske and a KAC both of which i absolutely love. I have no experience with a PWS but i can tell you the M6A3 is an outstanding rifle it has become my favorite very quickly
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Posted: 12/18/2011 5:58:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Wulfmann:
Originally Posted By vugger:
Unfortunately, LWRCi is referred to on many forums as being "heavy" or "not balanced" for all of the wrong reasons. Many individuals often refer to the "piston system", stating it causes the entire rifle to be heavy and out of balance. This is simply not true.

Why are they slightly heavier?

The reason that an LWRC rifle is a little more front heavy is because of the barrel profile. Nothing else. They use a heavier barrel profile because they want durability during sustained fire. Go to You Tube and watch the video of them running mag after mag through one of their uppers. Try and do that with a government profile barrel. Personally, I prefer a slightly heavier barrel profile, as it allows for a more rigid barrel, which is said to improve accuracy and does not heat up as fast during sustained fire. Also, balance can be fairly subjective, as my rifles with heavier barrel profiles "feel" more balanced to me than a government profiled rifle.

It seems like almost every post I see from Wulfman, he is discussing how heavy and out of balanced LWRC is and how well balanced his PWS rifle is. My personal opinion is comparing LWRC to PWS is not really a fair comparison. Mentioned above is the ACB, coatings, etc... but where LWRC really shines is their barrels. They are some of the best in the business.

And for those that do not wish to have a heavier profiled barrel... LWRC released the M6-SL model. My guess is this upper has the balancing "feel" that many are looking for.


The balance reason is simple:
Put the mechanism up over the gas block and the extra weight offsets the balance toward the muzzle (LWRC)
Put the mechanism over the BCG and the weight remains neutral. (PWS)






This is my point - you keep referring to a "mechanism" as if it's some sort of weight tied to the end of the barrel. How much do you think an op rod setup weighs? A few oz.? In my very humble opinion, this is a poor argument for bad balance. If you want to say - "they use a heavy ass barrel and I don't like it", that would be one thing, but to suggest that the op rod system causes the rifle to be front heavy is a poor argument in my opinion.

I have nothing negative to say about PWS. Their products appear to be very well made and priced competitively. I also agree that it would be nice to own both . My only reason for posting is to try and provide some clarity to the whole "balance" issue. This has been discussed to death on the LWRCi forums and Jesse (LWRCI's engineer) has provided an in-depth explanation on the weight of their upper receiver groups.
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Posted: 12/18/2011 6:21:58 PM EST
I have really enjoyed both my SPR and REPR, couldn't be happier. I really don't think you could go wrong either way as both are reputable companies. The LWRC piston system is extremely easy to clean and service. Their customer service is great and I have had zero buyers remorse despite them being the most expensive firearms I own. Good luck, I would imagine you will be pleased either way. I have had plenty of DI guns and sure they work fine but I really prefer the feel of the piston rifle, recoil is sharper and more positive, and just feels more solid. I'll take the weight and easy maintenance any day. If I was carrying the thing every day we'll then maybe the weight would be an issue, but for run and gun a couple times a month and bench shooting it's no problem at all.
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Posted: 12/19/2011 6:57:22 AM EST
Vugger, if PWS used a light barrel you might have a point but they use the heavier profile barrel and ask anyone who has handled both: The PWS is balanced like a DI the LWRC is not.

Not just the LWRC but all pistons that put the mechanism over the gas block. It is simple math

You say a few ounces, OK, add a few ounces down the barrel and the PWS a few ounces over the BCG. What do you suppose that does??

In the real world pick up a PWS and an LWRC and you feel the balance difference.

Now, to compound that most of these use aluminum quad rails adding more weight forward exacerbating the lack of balance.

I bought a Sig 516 Basic Patrol because it strips off the quad rail and while still a little muzzle heavy (compared to the PWS) it is better balanced than the same gun with the aluminum quad rail (and total weight is around 12 ounces less)

It would make more sense to just say the design of LWRC does create a muzzle heavy gun but the engineering qualities more than off set that and it handles so nice one does not mind it or notice it enough to be a problem.
But, to keep hearing "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" makes no sense.

I could see someone saying in spite of the balance issue I prefer LWRC for (whatever) but no matter which one you like putting those two makes on a balance scale reveals the obvious.

And that goes for all piston guns of the same basic design: LWRC, POF, LMT, SIG, etc etc etc.

It would not keep me from buying an LWRC but I would not be in denial of the fact either

It is nice to have a civil discussion on these points and I appreciate the friendly responses and opinions.


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Posted: 12/19/2011 6:57:56 AM EST
I think they're both excellent, but I went with LWRCi fore my piston AR's and haven't regretted it at any point.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 3:27:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By coloccw:
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.


I don't mean to come across as questioning you or instigating you but I find your reasoning to be odd. LWRC has outstanding cs, accuracy and their barrels are now being copied by most manufacturers. In fact, they were one of the first to nitride the barrels and more (some discussed here) with respects to barrel manufacturing.

Note, I am currently looking at pws for a .308 so I'm not anti pws by any stretch. I just kinda chuckled cause people usually say what you said about lwrc that's all.





I've never seen a LWRC at any shooting event. Several top 3 gun shooters referred me to PWS. Their accuracy was what sold me. I've never shot a LWRC, however with a PWS being less money, less moving parts and springs to wear out or break, I was sold. I haven't regretted it.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 5:18:56 PM EST
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Posted: 12/20/2011 6:00:55 PM EST


Whose system is that?
Can someone show comparisons of the 2?
I have an early PWS and I love it. Not many rounds through it though.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 6:05:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/20/2011 6:06:27 PM EST by mouthpiece]


Whose system is that?
Can someone show comparisons of the 2?
I have an early PWS and I love it. Not many rounds through it though.
EDIT: Sorry DT.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 7:02:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By mouthpiece:


Whose system is that?
Can someone show comparisons of the 2?
I have an early PWS and I love it. Not many rounds through it though.

PWS
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Posted: 12/21/2011 5:18:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By cop3468:
Which piston ar is better lwrc or pws?


Define "better". I cannot say anything for or against the PWS system since I have absolutely no experience with it. I currently hve 5 LWRC uppers and rifles and I have been very happy with each. FWIW.
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Posted: 12/24/2011 1:20:41 PM EST
I have no weight issues or unbalanced issues with my LWRCi SPR . Must be the spiral fluted barrel . Its extremely accurate , and have had great customer service . No issues just stupid questions that I figured would tweak them out but they seem to take all the time in the world to try and be of help . Good Luck . I do remember a little while back some one posting they were having negative issues with there PWS . Youn should try and find that and read up .
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Posted: 12/24/2011 4:42:18 PM EST
I stay out of the "which is better" threads as much as possible, as what works best for me, may not work best for someone else.

I have owned an LWRC M6A1 and one of the first M6A3'sthat came out (both 16" 5.56 versions). I also have a fairly extensive amount of experience shooting other peoples M6A2's. I have sold them off over the years and currently shooting a PWS MK-114 as my primary rifle. This is my duty rifle.

I will say that there is a significant difference in the balance and weight between the PWS and LWRC rifles. The LWRC rifles seem to weigh more and that weight is farther forward on the rifle and subjectively the LWRC's I have used are noticeably more muzzle heavy. This is especially significant when a suppressor is hanging off the end of the barrel.

In July of this year, suppressors became legal to shoot in WA. Because of this, I have been shooting suppressed much more often. I found that when shooting full power duty loads suppressed, that the rifle was a bit over gassed and I would get the occasional stovepipe. I contacted PWS about the issue and they emailed me a shipping label to send the rifle back on their dime. I shipped it on Wed Dec 14th. They signed for it in the evening of Friday the 16th. On Wednesday the 21st, I got an email saying they had replaced the barrel, receiver, trunnion and various other parts, test fired the rifle with and without the supressor and gave me a tracking number showing me it was en route back to me. On Friday the 23rd, I got the rifle and everything is perfect when shooting suppressed now.

I truly could not ask for better customer service then that.

On the upper, the only parts that were not replaced are the left, right and bottom rails and the bolts holding them on and the bolt carrier group. Everything else is brand spanking new at no cost to me

I have never used the LWRC customer support, so I cannot comment on it, but Stacy and the crew at PWS are top notch and produce a great rifle.

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Posted: 12/24/2011 5:15:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By socomxxx:
I do remember a little while back some one posting they were having negative issues with there PWS . Youn should try and find that and read up .


I remember that. The guy had fired a bunch of Wolf in his PWS and when he switched to brass cases he was getting stuck cases in the chamber.
Others suggested because Wolf steel cases do not expand and close up the chamber he was getting carbon in the chamber and if he cleaned the chamber really good he would be OK.
Never heard from him after that.
I also heard one guy and only one guy have a problem with his Sig 516
Then there was a guy having a problem with his LWRC and he was accused of being a troll because reporting anything wrong with an LWRC pisses off LWRC fans.

News flash. These are mechanical objects igniting projectiles at 55,000 pounds of pressure and doing so repeatedly.
It stands to reason once in a while something will malfunction and in any of them.

I keep hearing about how LWRC customer service is so great (and I am sure it is.)
Guess what, if they never have problems there would be no need for a customer service department.
We all know about good service departments because these weapons need service all of them from time to time.

Saying someone had a problem with a PWS in a manner that suggest they should not want one well, that goes equal for LWRC or any other weapon because there is always a possibility of a malfunction.

The fact I chose a PWS MK114 because balance and lighter weight was more important than to other piston buyers in no way means I think there is anything wrong with LWRCs or LMTs etc etc.

Fact is the economy has changed since I ordered my PWS in February and they are still 60 days back ordered.
Right now if I were to buy another piston (and I did) it would be (and was) a Sig 516.
They are a bargain and mine is flawless.
The cheaper version has no heavy quad rail and does not look as cool but is almost as balanced as the PWS (but the PWS has the very cool quad rail) and the function and accuracy is equal to the PWS.
Of course some say the 516 is an LWRC clone. Well, I can buy 2 516s for what one LWRC goes for.

You see there are all kinds of ways to have a pissing contest.

Gun brands remind me of religion. You can tell when someone truly believes he has a good gun because he does not have to trash someone else' brand to know his was the right choice.

Merry Christmas all and to all a good group


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Posted: 12/25/2011 4:40:55 AM EST
I know that you take this VERY personal Wolfy , but I was not trash talking any other brand . I was mearly pointing out that before buying the OP should read up on that post because I know it wasn't positive . I would want to read everything I could find before I bought .

Happy Holidays & Happy New Year to everyone !!
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Posted: 12/25/2011 5:30:55 AM EST
http://i42.tinypic.com/21n1gr5.png

Wulfman, I don't quite understand why you're saying the piston being attached to the bolt carrier would make a different balance wise. It's the same amount of metal (roughly) in front of the center of mass either way. SOmething being attached to something else doesn't affect where it will balance as an assembly, as you're not balancing the bolt carrier, but the whole rifle and all of it's components.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 5:52:55 AM EST
There is a noticable difference in the weight and balance between LWRC and PWS.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 5:55:41 AM EST
I doubt that is has to do with the function of the piston system, and more likely due to the weight of the components. I.E. if you welded the LWRC piston to the impingement key, it wouldn't change the balance, even though it would now function as a long stroke.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 6:49:19 AM EST
Actually I did not take any of it personal. I merely am pointing out all of these will have failures and considering the few we hear about it seems these are rare so saying one person had a problem with a PWS is as absurd as saying someone somewhere had a LWRC problem so beware.
I love the way disagreeing with an LWRC fan must indicate emotional distress. Physician heal thyself!

The quality of these rifles should not be an issue, they are all top end rifles

The buyer's concern should be what characteristics are more to his liking.

The poorly drawn comparison leaves off some major components.
The PWS does represent their system well enough.
What is missing from the LWRC is the piston over the gas block which is where the muzzle heavy manner the LWRC has.
The drawing leaving out that important factor is a head scratcher to me.

I have to chuckle when someone suggest the balance is the same. All one has to do is to pick them up and reality takes over.

Now if one were to say they believe the piston albeit muzzle heavy LWRC is a better design in their thinking so prefer that over the advantage of balance well that is great. Or, if they prefer the set up in some way or the way it feels to them, sure as the LWRC is a superbly made weapon..

But, from what I can tell the Sig 516 is basically the same gun (With the lighter barrel and with (Basic version)no metal quad rail better balanced) and is half the price of the LWRC.

I don't care what you buy it can fail. I have 4 carbines. Even K98k Mausers which are as close to indestructible as a rifle gets can break so I have back up springs, triggers, extractor even complete K98k bolts because with the economics of 2012 looming I want back ups for my back ups no matter what the brand no matter what they cost.
When Jesus comes back (happy Birthday Jesus BTW) and hands me a carbine and says; "Here, this will not fail you" I won't need a back up.
Until then I don't believe any of these are fail proof and I believe the chances of getting a rare bad one or having a rare failure is no different in a LWRC, PWS, LMT, Sig blah blah. If you do, buy that


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Posted: 12/25/2011 9:19:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2011 9:21:35 AM EST by Sleeper396]
So if there are parts failures, which system do you think will be faster and easier to fix? Which system's parts are more portable? Which system do you think would be cheaper to repair? Oh and the M6 SL which is like the sig you are trying to compare is only $500 more on a bad day and exhibits the same balance as the sig if not better. I think you need to play with all of LWRCI's offering before you make broad and dismissive statements about any of them.
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Posted: 12/25/2011 2:59:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
So if there are parts failures, which system do you think will be faster and easier to fix? Which system's parts are more portable? Which system do you think would be cheaper to repair? Oh and the M6 SL which is like the sig you are trying to compare is only $500 more on a bad day and exhibits the same balance as the sig if not better. I think you need to play with all of LWRCI's offering before you make broad and dismissive statements about any of them.


When it comes to cheaper easier to repair any DI AR will win.

I chose the PWS as a Primary weapon (no pun intended) because I had 15 years of flawless never a single failure in Daewoo DR200s and this use basically the same gas system but I agree with the never trust anything and I have more than one system

I paid $1,049 shipped on my CC for a 516 (and with a very cool tactical soft case).
What LWRC compares and please only list ones with no A2 front site they are useless to me
I would be interested in a new LWRC with no A2 front site in the 516 price range, seriously, I want to buy one if I can get that price range so link away

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Posted: 12/25/2011 3:39:27 PM EST
I would be curious to see what the weight differential is in the barrels between the two
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Posted: 12/25/2011 5:05:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2011 5:09:25 PM EST by Sleeper396]
Originally Posted By Wulfmann:
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
So if there are parts failures, which system do you think will be faster and easier to fix? Which system's parts are more portable? Which system do you think would be cheaper to repair? Oh and the M6 SL which is like the sig you are trying to compare is only $500 more on a bad day and exhibits the same balance as the sig if not better. I think you need to play with all of LWRCI's offering before you make broad and dismissive statements about any of them.


When it comes to cheaper easier to repair any DI AR will win.

I chose the PWS as a Primary weapon (no pun intended) because I had 15 years of flawless never a single failure in Daewoo DR200s and this use basically the same gas system but I agree with the never trust anything and I have more than one system

I paid $1,049 shipped on my CC for a 516 (and with a very cool tactical soft case).
What LWRC compares and please only list ones with no A2 front site they are useless to me
I would be interested in a new LWRC with no A2 front site in the 516 price range, seriously, I want to buy one if I can get that price range so link away

Wulfmann

Well I guess since you only want it in one configuration I guess you are kind of limited on the price you want. Too bad because M6SLs and A1-Ss on the street are going for just under $1500. Not bad when you compare it to similar rifles on the market and it definitely isn't anywhere near double the price. My PSD was only $1800 and $150 of that is for the Patriot Brown Cerakote job and I also got a bad ass range bag in the deal. There are fellas out there getting Cerakoted A3s for $1800. Again no where near the double the price for similarly equipped weapons. You just haven't been looking hard enough. Maybe sig is cheaper because they saved on R&D costs. You also never answered my questions, I didn't ask about a DI AR. I assumed you knew what I was talking about. Let me make it clearer for you. Between the PWS and the LWRCI system, which one is easier, cheaper, more portable, and faster to fix?
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Posted: 12/26/2011 6:40:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Wulfmann:


The poorly drawn comparison leaves off some major components.
The PWS does represent their system well enough.
What is missing from the LWRC is the piston over the gas block which is where the muzzle heavy manner the LWRC has.


I don't really understand the "piston over the gasblock" thing, and I own a couple LWRC rifles. The piston comes out the back of the gasblock.....from whence does the PWS piston come? Maybe if you posted pics of your system with the rail out of the way where we can see it clearly, we could grasp it. As it stands, I have to say that the PWS probably uses a thinner/pencil profile barrel to improve balance.


But, from what I can tell the Sig 516 is basically the same gun (With the lighter barrel and with (Basic version)no metal quad rail better balanced) and is half the price of the LWRC.

Yeah, SIG saved a lot by simply cloning portions of the LWRC, such as the carrier. Must be some Chinese involvement there. Other than that, anybody that sees a Nitrided, Cold Hammer Forged optimized profile barrel on one firearm and a phosphated, chrome-lined, M4 profile barrel on another - but doesn't see any difference...they've either got an axe to grind or they are comparing rifles based on looks alone. For instance, in addition to the vastly better barrel, the LWRC A2 comes with their Nickel Boron coated FCG and Bolt Carrier group, a real CTR and MIAD instead of MOE components, etc. Comparing a Sig 516 to an LWRC A2 is not apples to apples, and the price is going to reflect that.

When Jesus comes back (happy Birthday Jesus BTW) and hands me a carbine and says; "Here, this will not fail you" I won't need a back up.

I'm pretty sure that anybody that buys a Sig 516 is probably NOT going to be talking to Jesus when He comes back.


Just kidding!





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Posted: 12/26/2011 7:00:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
You also never answered my questions, I didn't ask about a DI AR. I assumed you knew what I was talking about. Let me make it clearer for you. Between the PWS and the LWRCI system, which one is easier, cheaper, more portable, and faster to fix?


No, I don't know what you are talking about. To ask which would be easier to fix well neither has a reputation for needing much fixing and execpt for the piston systems i assume they are no different to fix being basically a typical AR. I know PWS uses their own bolt with a spring which is very neat but one can use a regular bolt as the internals in the BCG are standard AR. I assume LWRC would be the same.

Now we have to decide what has broken?? I have never heard of the piston rod breaking in either. have you??
That has to be where you are going because everything else is the same.

I hardly think that matter much. I could buy a complete BCG piston set up from PWS if I thought it would ever be a concern and it would be a super easy switch out but I don't believe that is remotely likely. I also have to assume a properly cared for LWRC piston will not malfunction or wear under normal use.

I was not referring to wanting a LWRC in one configuration. I was only stating I would not want one with a fixed A2 site. There must be a bunch that have Pic rail gas blocks. yes, no??? You tell me

I was shooting the Sig 516 again this morning likely the last time before it gets a Geissele trigger. I have to admit at this prcie with this function and accuracy had I had this option when I ordered the PWS I would have bought this 516 instead. Not knocking the PWS, love it but a $500.00 out the door difference is significant when the function and accuracy is in the same league.

Please link me to a $1500.00 complete price LWRC carbine with no A2 site.
I have not seen one for $1500.00 final delivered price (and with the current updated bolt not the discontinued bolt). Please post a link so I can see that is real.


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Posted: 12/26/2011 7:55:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2011 12:08:58 PM EST by Wulfmann]
nineisfine, here is a picture of the PWS BCG and piston rod from their web site


As you can see this is the Daewoo/AK47 concept a very different approach to a piston gas system. basically there is no piston when compered to the typical AR piston build.
What you have is a gas block and a hollow tube. The piston rod in the picture is the entire system except for the hollow cylinder tube
So, when a round is fired the gas drives this entire set up back as one unit. The heavier portion is welded to the bolt key whereas the LWRC, Sig, virtually every other piston AR has that heavier piston at the back of the gas block with is over the middle of the barrel.
The PWS use a similar (not sure if it is exact though) barrel contour as the LWRC. it is not a pencil barrel. Go to their site and check for yourself.

As for the Sig it does use the lighter (but not pencil) barrel than the PWS or LWRC and I mentioned that in my comparison and pointed out the differences. What I am saying is the Sig 516 is flawless in operation and very accurate. For the money it is, IMO, the best dollar for dollar bang for the buck of any piston being offered this week (next week maybe different)

The argument LWRCs are muzzle heavy and not balanced like a DI or PWS is because they use a heavier barrel is simply not accurate.
They are muzzle heavy because the added weight of the piston is over the barrel and the PWS has balance because that weight is transferred over the bolt key. That is because it is a completely different design.
Now, i admit i do not know the total weight of the barrels of these guns and perhaps the LWRC is even thicker than the PWS and that adds to the unbalanced feel but all typical piston guns are less balanced than a PWS because of the design.
Someone preferring the LWRC in spite of this, well, I can see that.
Someone saying they don't like PWS for whatever reason, that is fine, we have many nice choices and when we all wake up to an AR/AK ban from future purchases I want to have too many not too few

This has been one of the more civil exchanges on LWRCs as most of the time i don't want to post. This LWRC oder nicht attitude and anyone who disagrees is an idiot or too cheap to step up to real quality is a turn off.
I can afford LWRCs and came here a year ago asking for advise on which piston to get (and I was planning on that being an LWRC)
Someone mentioned PWS and I had never heard of them and I checked out all the recommended piston guns.

Because I had 20K+++ rounds of flawless shooting over 15 years in Daewoo DR200s and knew the gas design was a sound one I considered the PWS and once I found it was better balanced and lighter for the same type package plus I could save enough to buy an EOTech and Geissele combat trigger for what the LWRC was going to cost I decided PWS.

I have a LE friend that decided he wanted to go piston and shot all my stuff and other pistons. he ended up buying a FNH FS2000. . For a walk around carbine that functions flawlessly and is very reliable that was his choice and I have one and they are great. had I bought one before any of the piston ARs I might have never bought an AR

I also considered the REPR in 308 and have decided on a Les Baer 308 AR sniper if I go that route as I consider the REPR too heavy to be a carry carbine and if it becomes a Bi-pod gun the LBC is superior by a long shot in accuracy


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Posted: 12/26/2011 8:07:02 AM EST
I was wondering what you do with the Sig 516 when it breaks ? I have heard they will not sell or ship any parts what so ever ! Do you have to go to a FFL and ship it back and wait ?? I think that will cost money and loose alot of time . LWRCi will sell you what ever you need . Just saying .
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Posted: 12/26/2011 8:50:21 AM EST
Sorry wulfman but the argument that LWRC rifles being muzzle heavy = heavier barrels IS ACCURATE. The piston parts weigh hardly anything. Compare an LWRC barrel to a competitor's barrel. Huge difference.
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Posted: 12/26/2011 8:51:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By socomxxx:
I was wondering what you do with the Sig 516 when it breaks ? I have heard they will not sell or ship any parts what so ever ! Do you have to go to a FFL and ship it back and wait ?? I think that will cost money and loose alot of time . LWRCi will sell you what ever you need . Just saying .


I agree, Sig not offering spare parts is a turn off.
But, this is an M4 and almost any part that requires a back up (IMO) firing pin, extractor, bolt, springs etc etc are all generic AR like most LWRC parts.

I have heard Sig CS turn around on repairs is very fast but that was one guy, the only guy so far to have any problem with a 516.

And, since this seems to be a LWRC copied AR (gas system/BCG) so I could always order a BCG from LWRC if i really wanted one or a spare piston.


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Posted: 12/26/2011 9:27:11 AM EST
Just out of curiosity, what are the dimensions of a LWRC barrel? I will measure the profile of my PWS and post up the results tonight. Anyone that can return the favor with a LWRC barrel both infront of and behind the gas block?
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Posted: 12/26/2011 10:49:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By coloccw:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By coloccw:
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.


I don't mean to come across as questioning you or instigating you but I find your reasoning to be odd. LWRC has outstanding cs, accuracy and their barrels are now being copied by most manufacturers. In fact, they were one of the first to nitride the barrels and more (some discussed here) with respects to barrel manufacturing.

Note, I am currently looking at pws for a .308 so I'm not anti pws by any stretch. I just kinda chuckled cause people usually say what you said about lwrc that's all.





I've never seen a LWRC at any shooting event. Several top 3 gun shooters referred me to PWS. Their accuracy was what sold me. I've never shot a LWRC, however with a PWS being less money, less moving parts and springs to wear out or break, I was sold. I haven't regretted it.


What shooters? How many events do you attend? Just out of curiosity...
I take issue with your implication that PWS barrels are better than LWRC. I have heard good things about PWS barrels, so I'm not knockin em.
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Posted: 12/26/2011 10:56:08 AM EST
I have an SPR and an A3 that I will caliper this evening.
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Posted: 12/26/2011 11:25:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By nineisfine:
I have an SPR and an A3 that I will caliper this evening.


Awesome, thanks for the assist.

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Posted: 12/26/2011 1:31:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/26/2011 1:32:53 PM EST by The_Evil_One]
Originally Posted By Wulfmann:

But, this is an M4 and almost any part that requires a back up (IMO) firing pin, extractor, bolt, springs etc etc are all generic AR like most LWRC parts.



Does this look standard?





Fuck I don't personally have an LWRC but my dad does and his is a great rifle. On top of that I run LWRC parts in my current rifle to include their advanced combat bolt and advanced cam pin. You would be hard pressed to find a more well engineered and thought out design ANYWHERE. LWRC parts incorporate a lot of features in them to ensure they far outperform their standard counterparts.

Do a little research before you start saying a lot of LWRC parts are generic because one thing that pisses me off is when people use what I like to call generalizing statements to criticize something so they don't have to give specifics.



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Posted: 12/26/2011 2:34:20 PM EST
This is not the first time Wulfy has been on here bashing LWRCi . I have read many posts were he is spreading hate about LWRCi . Its always the same peeps getting him back in line . Wulfy whats the problem man , why are you such a hater ? Really what you said about LWRCi parts being generic was way funny man .

I got an idea , sell your PWS & the Sig and get yourself a LWRCi SPR !!
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