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cop3468
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Posted: 12/17/2011 12:30:34 PM
Which piston ar is better lwrc or pws?
The_Evil_One
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Posted: 12/17/2011 12:34:13 PM
Depends. In terms of short stroke pistons many will say LWRC. In terms of long stroke systems PWS.

I'd say though if I had to pick out of those two I'd go for LWRC. More features and superb quality.
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KILLERB6
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Posted: 12/17/2011 12:39:45 PM
Best for you to decide that for yourself, but I would:

1. Take a look at LWRC's forum for owner feedback.
2. Take a careful look at standard features of each; I can't speak to the PWS but while LWRCs may appear expensive, many of their standard features (rail, ACB, NiB coatings, Magpul, etc.) are options you would probably end up adding to another rifle so actual cost is reasonable.

I own two (purchased through Northwest Tactical; superb CS) and use a third M6A2 and have been thoroughly happy with each.
Sleeper396
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Posted: 12/17/2011 1:41:20 PM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2011 1:41:51 PM by Sleeper396]
LWRCI all day. I like my charging handle to not be attached to my BCG.
Wulfmann
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Posted: 12/17/2011 3:01:17 PM
[Last Edit: 12/17/2011 3:04:58 PM by Wulfmann]
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
Best for you to decide that for yourself, but I would:

1. Take a look at LWRC's forum for owner feedback.
2. Take a careful look at standard features of each; I can't speak to the PWS but while LWRCs may appear expensive, many of their standard features (rail, ACB, NiB coatings, Magpul, etc.) are options you would probably end up adding to another rifle so actual cost is reasonable.

I own two (purchased through Northwest Tactical; superb CS) and use a third M6A2 and have been thoroughly happy with each.


I don't know what ACB is but PWS has the others you mentioned so that hardly is a plus.
Look at the PWS web site,m see what it has included and compare that. mapul, quad rail, stock, grip, 30 rnd Pmag and back up sites come standard on a PWS

They are different concepts/designs. The LWRC is heavier and is muzzle heavy meaning it is not neutrally balanced which is one of the best things about a PWS
It is very light and because the piston is attached to the top of the bolt carrier it balances like a DI gun, a big plus.
The PWS piston is based on the AK47 piston which has proven very reliable in 65 years of use

LWRC is a fine weapon, well made and functions superbly but it does cost considerably more.

You might also consider the SIG 516 which happens to be even cheaper than the PWS and is an excellent AR/M4, very accurate and with rave reviews (well, except one, LOL)


Wulfmann



Airborne_Infantryman
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Posted: 12/17/2011 3:37:37 PM
This is a case of "BMW vs. Mercedes".......both are very good, and have lots of features. The difference between the BMW (PWS) and the Mercedes (LWRC), is the attention to detail.

I love my PWS MK114....very light and balanced....be advised though, that the coatings on the PWS's BCG and such are NOT FailZero EXO, but are MicroSlick, which is still very good.

My LWRC M6A2 DEA and M6-SPR MOD 0 have a noticeably higher tier of fit and finish than my MK114. You cannot have a $2300 rifle for $1500......

Either one will serve you very well, but if I had the funds, I'd go with an LWRC.

Also, take into consideration that PWS's barrels are of the 1/8 twist variety, and LWRC's are of the 1/7 variety. That may influence your decision.

The PWS also uses a proprietary barrel nut, which means your stuck with using PWS's rail if you do for some reason want to change it out.

LWRCs can fit a Samson rail, and a couple others IIRC. Also take into account that the PWS barrel is NOT free floated, whereas every LWRC except the M6-SL is free-floated.

Either one will serve you well, and are outstanding rifles. Just make sure you know which features you want, and take into consideration which rifles have the features you want.
45-Seventy
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Posted: 12/17/2011 4:10:11 PM
Six to one, half-a-dozen to another.

They are both extremely well made and designed, very accurate with bomb-proof reliability and excellent quality control.

I prefer PWS, but that's personal preference. If the AR-Fairy snuck into my safe and swapped out my Mk216 and Mk116 with LWRC I certainly wouldn't cry about it.
Wulfmann
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Posted: 12/17/2011 4:15:48 PM
Airborne, excellent comparison.

The PWS can not be free floated as it is really almost the opposite in piston design.
That is; the piston is not sprung in a forward cylinder with a rod attached that drives back the BCG like the LWRC (LMT, POF, Sig, SR556 etc etc).
Instead the entire cylinder goes from the gas port to the chamber and the piston is attached to the BCG and is driven back as an entire unit.

Only LWRC owners have considered this inferior and history proves them wrong.

That is not to say the present LWRC piston/BCG is inferior to the AK/Daewoo/PWS design.
I would have complete confidence in the current (note I said current) LWRC BCG/piston.

However, be sure you buy the latest LWRC design because while some say the earlier designs were fine they changed them for a reason.
When i see a good deal on an LWRC and no mention of when it was made or which BCG it is I will ask for a photo of the BCG and every single time it is the older now outdated design that has been replaced.

I doubt you would be disappointed in either gun like driving home in the BMW or Benz you will drive with a smile in either.

Hmmmm, I chose the PWS myself but drive a Mercedes. Guess that was my compromise!!


Wulfmann
RUTGERS95
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Posted: 12/17/2011 6:54:44 PM
as long as you get a late 08 and newer, lwrc is absolutely fine with respects to timeline

air has a nice comparision but forgot the barrel. lwrc barrels are top of the line and designed to last much longer than other barrels, dispense the heat more evenly, and have other features.

the pws I held and fired was well balanced and I'm sure a fine firearm however, lwrc has been seen battle and passed the SEAL otb test.....
nineisfine
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Posted: 12/17/2011 9:42:05 PM
As mentioned, both systems are good.....I own LWRC and love em.
I'm gonna go inside, and I'm gonna get a shovel.
vugger
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Posted: 12/18/2011 9:38:50 AM
Unfortunately, LWRCi is referred to on many forums as being "heavy" or "not balanced" for all of the wrong reasons. Many individuals often refer to the "piston system", stating it causes the entire rifle to be heavy and out of balance. This is simply not true.

Why are they slightly heavier?

The reason that an LWRC rifle is a little more front heavy is because of the barrel profile. Nothing else. They use a heavier barrel profile because they want durability during sustained fire. Go to You Tube and watch the video of them running mag after mag through one of their uppers. Try and do that with a government profile barrel. Personally, I prefer a slightly heavier barrel profile, as it allows for a more rigid barrel, which is said to improve accuracy and does not heat up as fast during sustained fire. Also, balance can be fairly subjective, as my rifles with heavier barrel profiles "feel" more balanced to me than a government profiled rifle.

It seems like almost every post I see from Wulfman, he is discussing how heavy and out of balanced LWRC is and how well balanced his PWS rifle is. My personal opinion is comparing LWRC to PWS is not really a fair comparison. Mentioned above is the ACB, coatings, etc... but where LWRC really shines is their barrels. They are some of the best in the business.

And for those that do not wish to have a heavier profiled barrel... LWRC released the M6-SL model. My guess is this upper has the balancing "feel" that many are looking for.
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Chuck
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Posted: 12/18/2011 10:17:01 AM
I'm perfectly happy with my LWRC M6A1-S and M6-SL carbines. The M6-SL is "lightweight." Both are on mid-length gas systems.



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Wulfmann
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Posted: 12/18/2011 1:02:27 PM
Originally Posted By vugger:
Unfortunately, LWRCi is referred to on many forums as being "heavy" or "not balanced" for all of the wrong reasons. Many individuals often refer to the "piston system", stating it causes the entire rifle to be heavy and out of balance. This is simply not true.

Why are they slightly heavier?

The reason that an LWRC rifle is a little more front heavy is because of the barrel profile. Nothing else. They use a heavier barrel profile because they want durability during sustained fire. Go to You Tube and watch the video of them running mag after mag through one of their uppers. Try and do that with a government profile barrel. Personally, I prefer a slightly heavier barrel profile, as it allows for a more rigid barrel, which is said to improve accuracy and does not heat up as fast during sustained fire. Also, balance can be fairly subjective, as my rifles with heavier barrel profiles "feel" more balanced to me than a government profiled rifle.

It seems like almost every post I see from Wulfman, he is discussing how heavy and out of balanced LWRC is and how well balanced his PWS rifle is. My personal opinion is comparing LWRC to PWS is not really a fair comparison. Mentioned above is the ACB, coatings, etc... but where LWRC really shines is their barrels. They are some of the best in the business.

And for those that do not wish to have a heavier profiled barrel... LWRC released the M6-SL model. My guess is this upper has the balancing "feel" that many are looking for.


You say that as if I have no experience with LWRC rifles but I do and think they are great.

As for the heavier profile barrels well I hate to break it to you but PWS uses the heavier profile barrels not the thin ones.

The balance reason is simple:
Put the mechanism up over the gas block and the extra weight offsets the balance toward the muzzle (LWRC)
Put the mechanism over the BCG and the weight remains neutral. (PWS)

This is a design issue not a manufacturing issue and I think the Mercedes comparison for LWRC is spot on.
They are beautifully made guns and one day I will buy one for that reason alone. Of course they shoot like a Benz drives.

This does not have to be one good one bad. They are both good but have some different attributes.

Everybody should own one of each!!


Wulfmann
socomxxx
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Posted: 12/18/2011 3:56:19 PM
LWRCi SPR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love Mine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
coloccw
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Posted: 12/18/2011 7:41:57 PM
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.
RUTGERS95
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Posted: 12/18/2011 7:48:24 PM
Originally Posted By coloccw:
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.


I don't mean to come across as questioning you or instigating you but I find your reasoning to be odd. LWRC has outstanding cs, accuracy and their barrels are now being copied by most manufacturers. In fact, they were one of the first to nitride the barrels and more (some discussed here) with respects to barrel manufacturing.

Note, I am currently looking at pws for a .308 so I'm not anti pws by any stretch. I just kinda chuckled cause people usually say what you said about lwrc that's all.



Rickymachinegun
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Posted: 12/18/2011 8:32:08 PM
I recently picked up an LWRC M6A3 as my first piston gun. I have a Noveske and a KAC both of which i absolutely love. I have no experience with a PWS but i can tell you the M6A3 is an outstanding rifle it has become my favorite very quickly
vugger
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Posted: 12/18/2011 10:58:19 PM
Originally Posted By Wulfmann:
Originally Posted By vugger:
Unfortunately, LWRCi is referred to on many forums as being "heavy" or "not balanced" for all of the wrong reasons. Many individuals often refer to the "piston system", stating it causes the entire rifle to be heavy and out of balance. This is simply not true.

Why are they slightly heavier?

The reason that an LWRC rifle is a little more front heavy is because of the barrel profile. Nothing else. They use a heavier barrel profile because they want durability during sustained fire. Go to You Tube and watch the video of them running mag after mag through one of their uppers. Try and do that with a government profile barrel. Personally, I prefer a slightly heavier barrel profile, as it allows for a more rigid barrel, which is said to improve accuracy and does not heat up as fast during sustained fire. Also, balance can be fairly subjective, as my rifles with heavier barrel profiles "feel" more balanced to me than a government profiled rifle.

It seems like almost every post I see from Wulfman, he is discussing how heavy and out of balanced LWRC is and how well balanced his PWS rifle is. My personal opinion is comparing LWRC to PWS is not really a fair comparison. Mentioned above is the ACB, coatings, etc... but where LWRC really shines is their barrels. They are some of the best in the business.

And for those that do not wish to have a heavier profiled barrel... LWRC released the M6-SL model. My guess is this upper has the balancing "feel" that many are looking for.


The balance reason is simple:
Put the mechanism up over the gas block and the extra weight offsets the balance toward the muzzle (LWRC)
Put the mechanism over the BCG and the weight remains neutral. (PWS)






This is my point - you keep referring to a "mechanism" as if it's some sort of weight tied to the end of the barrel. How much do you think an op rod setup weighs? A few oz.? In my very humble opinion, this is a poor argument for bad balance. If you want to say - "they use a heavy ass barrel and I don't like it", that would be one thing, but to suggest that the op rod system causes the rifle to be front heavy is a poor argument in my opinion.

I have nothing negative to say about PWS. Their products appear to be very well made and priced competitively. I also agree that it would be nice to own both . My only reason for posting is to try and provide some clarity to the whole "balance" issue. This has been discussed to death on the LWRCi forums and Jesse (LWRCI's engineer) has provided an in-depth explanation on the weight of their upper receiver groups.
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Easttnplinker
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Posted: 12/18/2011 11:21:58 PM
I have really enjoyed both my SPR and REPR, couldn't be happier. I really don't think you could go wrong either way as both are reputable companies. The LWRC piston system is extremely easy to clean and service. Their customer service is great and I have had zero buyers remorse despite them being the most expensive firearms I own. Good luck, I would imagine you will be pleased either way. I have had plenty of DI guns and sure they work fine but I really prefer the feel of the piston rifle, recoil is sharper and more positive, and just feels more solid. I'll take the weight and easy maintenance any day. If I was carrying the thing every day we'll then maybe the weight would be an issue, but for run and gun a couple times a month and bench shooting it's no problem at all.
Wulfmann
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Posted: 12/19/2011 11:57:22 AM
Vugger, if PWS used a light barrel you might have a point but they use the heavier profile barrel and ask anyone who has handled both: The PWS is balanced like a DI the LWRC is not.

Not just the LWRC but all pistons that put the mechanism over the gas block. It is simple math

You say a few ounces, OK, add a few ounces down the barrel and the PWS a few ounces over the BCG. What do you suppose that does??

In the real world pick up a PWS and an LWRC and you feel the balance difference.

Now, to compound that most of these use aluminum quad rails adding more weight forward exacerbating the lack of balance.

I bought a Sig 516 Basic Patrol because it strips off the quad rail and while still a little muzzle heavy (compared to the PWS) it is better balanced than the same gun with the aluminum quad rail (and total weight is around 12 ounces less)

It would make more sense to just say the design of LWRC does create a muzzle heavy gun but the engineering qualities more than off set that and it handles so nice one does not mind it or notice it enough to be a problem.
But, to keep hearing "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" makes no sense.

I could see someone saying in spite of the balance issue I prefer LWRC for (whatever) but no matter which one you like putting those two makes on a balance scale reveals the obvious.

And that goes for all piston guns of the same basic design: LWRC, POF, LMT, SIG, etc etc etc.

It would not keep me from buying an LWRC but I would not be in denial of the fact either

It is nice to have a civil discussion on these points and I appreciate the friendly responses and opinions.


Wulfmann
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Posted: 12/19/2011 11:57:56 AM
I think they're both excellent, but I went with LWRCi fore my piston AR's and haven't regretted it at any point.
coloccw
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Posted: 12/20/2011 8:27:01 PM
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By coloccw:
I was contemplating the same a few years ago. I ended up with a PWS due to the customer service and the guaranteed accuracy. With over 30K rounds through it, my 10.5" PWS upper is still sub-MOA with 55gr Rem, 62gr Win, and 77gr TAP. I couldn't be more pleased. The difference was in the barrels. The techs at each company can talk you though their strong points.


I don't mean to come across as questioning you or instigating you but I find your reasoning to be odd. LWRC has outstanding cs, accuracy and their barrels are now being copied by most manufacturers. In fact, they were one of the first to nitride the barrels and more (some discussed here) with respects to barrel manufacturing.

Note, I am currently looking at pws for a .308 so I'm not anti pws by any stretch. I just kinda chuckled cause people usually say what you said about lwrc that's all.





I've never seen a LWRC at any shooting event. Several top 3 gun shooters referred me to PWS. Their accuracy was what sold me. I've never shot a LWRC, however with a PWS being less money, less moving parts and springs to wear out or break, I was sold. I haven't regretted it.
Sleeper396
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Posted: 12/20/2011 10:18:56 PM
Nah
mouthpiece
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:00:55 PM


Whose system is that?
Can someone show comparisons of the 2?
I have an early PWS and I love it. Not many rounds through it though.
mouthpiece
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:05:32 PM
[Last Edit: 12/20/2011 11:06:27 PM by mouthpiece]


Whose system is that?
Can someone show comparisons of the 2?
I have an early PWS and I love it. Not many rounds through it though.
EDIT: Sorry DT.
Sleeper396
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Posted: 12/21/2011 12:02:11 AM
Originally Posted By mouthpiece:


Whose system is that?
Can someone show comparisons of the 2?
I have an early PWS and I love it. Not many rounds through it though.

PWS
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