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SharpsMilSpec
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Posted: 1/6/2011 12:38:46 PM EST
Announcing (with pictures) the Sharps 25-45

This is scheduled for full release at the Shot Show, but we wanted to give the folks on AR15.com a sneak peak.

We'll save load data and all that good stuff for after a show, but these are the first pieces of brass produced under the joint partnership between Federal Cartridge and The Sharps Rifle Company.

Basic specs:
-Fits Standard AR Bolt
-Fits in Standard 556 magazine (cants slightly due to wider neck, but feeds)
-Shoots flatter than the 556/223
-Heavier loads duplicate 30/30 150-170gr class energy levels

Sharps 25-45

Enjoy,

Mike
Sharps 2010, Way Beyond MilSpec.
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ArmaNotSoLite
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Posted: 1/6/2011 2:02:05 PM EST
Wow, that's pretty cool. That's going to be a sweet hunting round. Who's producing it?
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GB243
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Posted: 1/6/2011 4:25:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmaNotSoLite:
Wow, that's pretty cool. That's going to be a sweet hunting round. Who's producing it?


Looks like it says Federal Cartridge.
ArmaNotSoLite
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Posted: 1/6/2011 4:30:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By GB243:
Originally Posted By ArmaNotSoLite:
Wow, that's pretty cool. That's going to be a sweet hunting round. Who's producing it?


Looks like it says Federal Cartridge.




I couldn't see it on my phones screen.
I drink only the blood of my enemies! And the occasional strawberry Yoohoo. -Sarge

GB243
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Posted: 1/6/2011 4:36:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArmaNotSoLite:
Originally Posted By GB243:
Originally Posted By ArmaNotSoLite:
Wow, that's pretty cool. That's going to be a sweet hunting round. Who's producing it?


Looks like it says Federal Cartridge.




I couldn't see it on my phones screen.


I like it too , fellow in variants forum has had an almost identical (?) cartridge running for a little while . Commercialy loaded would be sweet.

VictorUnit
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Posted: 1/6/2011 5:09:48 PM EST
good!
320pf
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Posted: 1/6/2011 6:19:00 PM EST
Here is the link to what we have been doing with a similar cartridge.

25-223AR

Our version of this cartridge was inspired by Kurt's 25-40mm that is also discussed on the same forum.

I think that "25-223AR is a better name for the cartridge and would also market better.

I would have to see the actual brass... But I think that we did it better because we fixed the "cant" problem with the mags.

320pf
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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:58:35 AM EST
SWEET
MrEvoMan
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Posted: 1/7/2011 4:39:00 AM EST
Any side by side comparison pictures of the bullets?
SharpsMilSpec
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Posted: 1/7/2011 6:37:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By MrEvoMan:
Any side by side comparison pictures of the bullets?


Load data and loaded cartridge photos will be available post Shot. Federal is working on some bullets in their lines and we are working some up in our equipment as well.

Stay tuned.....

Mike

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320pf
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Posted: 1/7/2011 6:53:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2011 12:47:27 PM EST by 320pf]
The loaded cases will look something like this

25-223AR

Originally Posted By MrEvoMan:
Any side by side comparison pictures of the bullets?


Edit: Fixed link
SharpsMilSpec
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Posted: 1/7/2011 7:02:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By 320pf:
Here is the link to what we have been doing with a similar cartridge.

25-223AR

Our version of this cartridge was inspired by Kurt's 25-40mm that is also discussed on the same forum.

I think that "25-223AR is a better name for the cartridge and would also market better.

I would have to see the actual brass... But I think that we did it better because we fixed the "cant" problem with the mags.

320pf


It is tricky little issue to work with putting a new round in a pre-existing magazine and it doesn't ride out in all mags, just depends on how large the neck bolster is in the magazine or in the case of several companies the trick was getting around the center divider rib that they put in the front inside of the magazine. Troy Industries magazine is a perfect sample. Brought some prototypes over to see if we cleared it and we did, just barely, but we did and it made us very aware that we have bullet ogive limitations we have to abide by. However if they've got that rib that runs along the neck of the cartridge right out to the maximum so it actually touches the 223/5.56 neck. There is no way to avoid some tilt from contact with the neck expanded to take the .257 bullet with a standard length case.

Fortunately, as SAAMI members this will be a standardized release so it should ease adoption and distribution, plus having a partnership on it with Federal is obviously a huge plus. That more rounded weatherby style shoulder is nice, but a real frustration to mass produce. Key for us was to make sure Federal could run it straight through their current 556 production equipment with only a few die station changes. Folks like yourselves and others all the way back to Blackwell and Wooters in the 60's have been tinkering with a case of about this size with bullet in the 25 Cal arena. After playing with it for a while here, we decided to go ahead and push it through the system so everyone could get to play. Like all production items, it has a few compromises, but much of what look like compromises are retained and designed benefits for manufacturing, functioning in the rifles long term, and total ballistic performance. One example is the only way to completely circumvent the neck bolster issue entirely is to pull the case neck back pass the bolster so that the bullet contacts it directly, which since it is 0.257 and the neck on the 556 is 0.253 makes a perfect fit, however that singificantly shortens the case, levels a lot of bullet exposed and riding on the bullet leads to misallignment if its carried and banged around at all or even some variance could be seen by the bottom of the magazine if from the bench. So we played with the shoulder, neck positioning, etc., but just couldn't find a more consistent and reliable lay out that fit the widest array of currently available equipment in use by the shooters in the market place and delivered better performance.

We did tinker with the name too, 25-223 was on the list, but as that's been around for a bit and there are wildcat chambers marked that we rejected it. We finally went with the 25-45 Sharps as it was a tribute to the 5.56x45mm, plus our own name sake tradition of 40-70, 45-110 style naming convention, also its partner in process for release is the 50-70 Sharps Auto, so it made a good match for us. By no means was it an easy call, but it was the one that seemed to avoid the most confusion and in the end was the most Sharps.


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precisionpredators
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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:52:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2011 3:53:26 PM EST by precisionpredators]
Do you guys already have a die maker lined up that is producing dies for these and if so who? If not how long before they would be available?. Will you have anything for sale at the shot show related to this offering???
VaFish
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Posted: 1/7/2011 6:44:55 PM EST
Since I have one of 320pf's .25-223 barrels and have enjoyed working up some handloads for it, I'm eagerly waiting to see some commercial acceptance of my favorite new caliber.
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Posted: 1/7/2011 10:40:08 PM EST
If the case length is left at 45mm, that is going to severely restrict which bullets can used. I will reserve judgment until ballistics are posted.
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VaFish
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Posted: 1/8/2011 2:58:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
If the case length is left at 45mm, that is going to severely restrict which bullets can used. I will reserve judgment until ballistics are posted.


I will buy a bunch of brass and or ammo as soon as I can get my hands on it.

One of my fears when hunting with my .25-223 is getting jacked up by a game cop for an illegal caliber. My barrel is unmarked,my receiver says 5.56, and the brass says .223. Would be very nice to have brass that reflects.caliber.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 4:32:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2011 4:35:47 AM EST by precisionpredators]
Originally Posted By VaFish:
Originally Posted By chewbacca:
If the case length is left at 45mm, that is going to severely restrict which bullets can used. I will reserve judgment until ballistics are posted.


I will buy a bunch of brass and or ammo as soon as I can get my hands on it.

One of my fears when hunting with my .25-223 is getting jacked up by a game cop for an illegal caliber. My barrel is unmarked,my receiver says 5.56, and the brass says .223. Would be very nice to have brass that reflects.caliber.


Already been down that road. He started out as a complete jerk thinking he really had me. Once I got him to listen to me and look at the rounds I had on me he was very enthusiastic about my 6x45. In fact he said he was going to get once himself. Of course according to him it was still my fault for his wrong assumption.......

VaFish
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Posted: 1/8/2011 4:41:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By SharpsMilSpec:

Fortunately, as SAAMI members this will be a standardized release so it should ease adoption and distribution, plus having a partnership on it with Federal is obviously a huge plus.... ...Folks like yourselves and others all the way back to Blackwell and Wooters in the 60's have been tinkering with a case of about this size with bullet in the 25 Cal arena. After playing with it for a while here, we decided to go ahead and push it through the system so everyone could get to play.......




Is this going to be a proprietary round like the 6.5 Grendel where everyone has to pay you a fee to play or is it open to the world?

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Posted: 1/8/2011 4:52:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By SharpsMilSpec:

-Heavier loads duplicate 30/30 150-170gr class energy levels


Mike


What barrel length?

.30-30 is making ~1,800 ft lbs of energy. Gotta push the .25-223 pretty hard to get up to that. My current loads with the 87 gr bullet are only making about 1,400 ft lbs (16" barrel) From punching some numbers in a ballistics calculator looks like a 100 gr bullet needs about 2,900 fps to get to 1,800 ft lbs of energy. I think 320pf's loads are only getting 1,600 ft lbs of energy.

I really do want to see the specs. (I know, at or after shot show I'll have to wait a few more days) I would love to see it reach those levels, but I'm guessing not from a 16" carbine.



VictorUnit
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Posted: 1/10/2011 6:59:56 PM EST
good job ...the brass and most of the tooling is common to 556 so the costs should be affordable with a big increase in power ––awesome !
SharpsMilSpec
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Posted: 1/11/2011 2:40:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By precisionpredators:
Do you guys already have a die maker lined up that is producing dies for these and if so who? If not how long before they would be available?. Will you have anything for sale at the shot show related to this offering???


RCBS is online as part of our agreement with Federal/ATK. Should be online following Shot.
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Posted: 1/11/2011 2:53:35 AM EST


Last I checked the 6.5 Grendel still hasn't been standardized as of yet, but our picture is to use what control we have to influence and enhance supply. Examples, make sure that they actually put 25-45 Sharps on the barrel if they are making it not just 25-45 S. Make sure only quality makers are churning out components, etc. We are already talking, and have been talking, major players that I'm restricted by NDA to discuss, but who make thousands of rifles a month. So we going to do everything we can to get this round out there, and to the market, with as low of a cost as possible. Our belief is we'll do the best by making this as widely available at as practical of a price as possible. Case in point, Jamison and the WSM. I don't know what the fee was/is, but it was something like $5 a box. That's 0.25 cents a round. As a manufacturer I can say that is a huge price add and a price add like that at the initial manufacturing stage gets applied as it gets multiplied by the wholesaler's mark up, dealer's mark-up etc. We won't handicap this round like that.
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SharpsMilSpec
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Posted: 1/11/2011 3:00:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By VaFish:
Originally Posted By SharpsMilSpec:

-Heavier loads duplicate 30/30 150-170gr class energy levels


Mike


What barrel length?

.30-30 is making ~1,800 ft lbs of energy. Gotta push the .25-223 pretty hard to get up to that. My current loads with the 87 gr bullet are only making about 1,400 ft lbs (16" barrel) From punching some numbers in a ballistics calculator looks like a 100 gr bullet needs about 2,900 fps to get to 1,800 ft lbs of energy. I think 320pf's loads are only getting 1,600 ft lbs of energy.

I really do want to see the specs. (I know, at or after shot show I'll have to wait a few more days) I would love to see it reach those levels, but I'm guessing not from a 16" carbine.






Very good and smart comments here.....one thing to remember is the 30/30 is also standardized on a 24" test barrel, so a lot of the 30/30's published numbers are ballistic lab only occurrences. We are going to work through it, and I know Federal is working through it on their side too, and I'll promise you we will not only publish "lab" ballistics, but also do some heads up testing out of actual firearms, so you'll get to see what the field ballistics will be. Trust me, when I was on the other side of the table it always drove me nuts when the only thing you could find from a company were 24" test barrel numbers and the longest barrel you could find in a caliber were between 16 and 20 inches, so I'll make sure we don't do that to you.
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VaFish
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Posted: 1/11/2011 3:02:30 AM EST
Sounds like a very smart strategy
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Posted: 1/11/2011 4:38:35 AM EST
What bullets will work with this case and still be loadable to AR magazine well length (2.25")? Others and I have had good results with bullets up to 100gr (2500-2600fps from a 16" barrel depending on powder) out of the .25-223 and the 80gr Barnes looks promising as a hunting bullet but I'm not sure they will be usable in an AR without trimming the case back to the shorter 1.7" length used for the .25-223. What is the exact trim length of the .25-45? I'm assuming 1.75, like .223, but I would like confirmation.
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VaFish
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Posted: 1/11/2011 5:42:52 AM EST
Now that I have a chrongraph I can shoot the 30_30 and get some real world numbers on it to compare with my .25-223
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