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Posted: 10/11/2016 4:21:58 PM EDT
Sirs and Madams,

I am making an M16A1 3D model, which I'm trying to get just right. I have learned a lot from these forums but sometimes, I have a few questions, I was hoping you could answer. Here's a couple that struck me today:


  • Is it correct to assume the Colt 603 for US Army in Germany anno 1985?

  • Colors: Would these all be black or would the be a mix of grey and black? Or?

  • M203: Would these also have the same color and which color would they be?

  • Would there be any kind of personalisation? Like writing on the 203 heatshield?



Thank you very much
Link Posted: 10/11/2016 5:07:34 PM EDT
[#1]
The 603 model would be correct for a legacy M16A1, and many were still in issue at that time, though the M16A2 had officially been adopted 3 years earlier in 1982.
Link Posted: 10/11/2016 5:24:51 PM EDT
[#2]
M16A1 would be correct for the time. Many units didn't get M16A2's for 4-5 more years. As for writing on the heatshield? No.
Link Posted: 10/11/2016 5:40:39 PM EDT
[#3]
In 86 I never had a new rifle
till I deployed in 91.

It was a brand new A1- Hydra-Matic made in
1966.

And I was in West Germany and then Germany.


If that helps you in your quest.
Link Posted: 10/11/2016 5:41:43 PM EDT
[#4]
welcome


I was stationed in German in the mid 80s so



Colors: Would these all be black or would the be a mix of grey and black? Or?
View Quote



grey finish with black handguard, stock,  pistol grip and grey M14 sling

]M203: Would these also have the same color and which color would they be?
View Quote


same color as the M16A1

Would there be any kind of personalisation? Like writing on the 203 heatshield?
View Quote



never, the only marking that was ever on M16 was the rack number stenciled  on the stock. in my unit the color of the rack number  denoted what platoon that rifle was  to ie. red for 1st platoon, blue 2nd platoon etc...  but that was just our Bn SOP. other battlions  may have used one color, white, for their entire rifles


Link Posted: 10/12/2016 3:37:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Thank you very much for your time and insights.

I'll return when I'm a little further down the line. I've done the upper, lower and butt stock. I should be able to finish the rest within the week and will post here for accuracy.

Thank you again. And thank you for making sure we are not having this conversation in Russian, Polish or German.
Link Posted: 10/12/2016 9:12:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Thank you again. And thank you for making sure we are not having this conversation in Russian, Polish or German.
View Quote




Link Posted: 10/12/2016 11:11:56 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  Thank you very much for your time and insights.

I'll return when I'm a little further down the line. I've done the upper, lower and butt stock. I should be able to finish the rest within the week and will post here for accuracy.

Thank you again. And thank you for making sure we are not having this conversation in Russian, Polish or German.
View Quote


You could put a left-handed shell deflector through the carry handle if you wanted some flavor.
Link Posted: 10/12/2016 8:21:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Several months ago I found some vintage left hand she'll deflectors at Burns Surplus on I44 in Missouri. They had a bucket of them for  $8 each. I bought one because I used one in 1989 on my M16A1 H&R rifle.
The A1 clone I have today is a Canadian upper so I just have the deflector as a conversation piece.
Link Posted: 10/13/2016 9:09:30 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
In 86 I never had a new rifle
till I deployed in 91.

It was a brand new A1- Hydra-Matic made in
1966.

And I was in West Germany and then Germany.


If that helps you in your quest.
View Quote


Thank you for your service. Just an FYI.....GM didn't start making the M16A1 until 1968. GM was first awarded the contract for 240,000 rifles on 04-19-68 and the first shipment was made in November of 68.
Link Posted: 10/14/2016 7:30:21 AM EDT
[#10]
I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.





We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.

 
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 8:50:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.

We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.  
View Quote


That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 9:00:09 AM EDT
[#12]
In early '88 with 3-34AR of the Big Red Weeny (1st Infantry Div Forward) we had A2s.

As part of in-processing we were supposed to bring our issue rifle to zero.

All of the support unit people still had A1's, combat arms A2's.

We were close to the last active unit to have 1911's, I wonder who the last A1 user was in the active Army.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 9:11:12 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.

We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.  


That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?


Do you mean M60 instead of 240B?  The M249 supplemented the M60 (and later 240B), it didn't replace it.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 9:22:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Thanks again, everyone.

Promised update:

Flat slip ring:


Should be the correct amount of grooves in the barrel nut. Some of these parts have lower levels of details since the gun will be seen mainly from the shooter's perspective.


Birdcage flash supressor and peel washer:


Full fence lower and pistol grip:




Buttstock cap:


Long range aperture. I know the diameter is way larger than real life but it won't work in-game.


Windage adjustment knob:


Front sight:


Am I supposed to do some forge maskings here? Some of the pictures I have seen have had severe marks, unsure.


Still have the bolt, ejection cover and forward assist to do + all the markings. It's super exciting.

I'm also looking for veterans that were there in the 80's to tell a story or two and make the whole deal a bit more tangible to the youngsters on our team. We have weekly meetings on Google Hangouts and teamspeak, so please do get in touch if you know anyone. It's a non-profit, so I can't offer much beside a beer or what have you.

Thanks for your time, would love to hear your thoughts.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 10:09:59 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?
View Quote

Yes.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 10:50:24 AM EDT
[#16]
Nicely modeled, OP.

Don't know how detailed your game is, but if you're going to put the M249 in there, it can feed from either a belt or M-16 magazines.  It likes new magazines w/ fresh magazine springs.  I imagine (pure speculation here) that in 1985, the M249, when fed from late-Vietnam era mags, jammed a lot.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 11:49:19 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.

We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.  


That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?

Yes. at that date only armor units had the M240 in the tank mounted versions for coax and gunner's machine gun.
1!AD with brigades in Vilseck, Erlangen, and Bamberg got M16A2s in the summer of 1988, so everybody had A1s until than.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 12:06:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.

We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.  
View Quote


In the 1980s the order of fielding of new equipment would usually be

XVIII Corps
82 ABN
101 AA
10 MTN
24 ID

III Corps
2 AD
1 CAV
1 ID (Conus)
3 ACR

V Corps
3ID
3AD
1 ID (Forward)
11 ACR

VII Corps
2 ACR
1AD
8ID

I Corps
2 ID
25 ID
6 ID


FORSCOM
4 ID
5 ID
7 ID
9 ID

National Guard
Roundout brigades for 24 ID and 1 CAV were equipped when the active duty brigades were equipped
49 AD Texas
29 ID Virginia / Maryland
42 ID New York
40 ID Califirnia
50 AD New Jersey
I've forgotten the order from there, but fielding new equipment was a 25 year project for everyone to get it. People forget that the unit at Kent State in 1970 were using M1 Garands.

Link Posted: 11/14/2016 1:10:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Yes. at that date only armor units had the M240 in the tank mounted versions for coax and gunner's machine gun.
1!AD with brigades in Vilseck, Erlangen, and Bamberg got M16A2s in the summer of 1988, so everybody had A1s until than.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.

We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.  


That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?

Yes. at that date only armor units had the M240 in the tank mounted versions for coax and gunner's machine gun.
1!AD with brigades in Vilseck, Erlangen, and Bamberg got M16A2s in the summer of 1988, so everybody had A1s until than.


I was in 4/70 AR in Erlangen at that time and that was my experience. We traded in the A1's in April 1988 along with our M60A3 tanks and got the M16A2 as that was the issue weapon for the M1A1 tanks (vs. the m3 grease gun which was issued with the M60 series tanks.) Even though the new recruits we were receiving trained on the M9 pistol, we still had the 1911's when I left in Nov 89. They were still using them during Desert Storm also.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 1:54:04 PM EDT
[#20]
I'm confused - are we talking about the M240 or the M249? We have the M249 ready and the M60 in the pipeline.

Our game is an extension for the Squad game (www.joinsquad.com), so first person platoon/squad level action (50 players per side).

So I gather a lot of the gear in 1985 would be left over from Vietnam and in some cases in a distressed or worn or even sad condition? It seems there was a slump after that conflict ended and things picked up mid/late 80s with the Bradleys, Abrams and the M16A2? Is this a fair assesment? It's a question of how much wear we should paint and model and the frequency of jamming/vehicle breakdown etc.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 1:56:44 PM EDT
[#21]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:


I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.





We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example.  






That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985?








Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried.





M60s still stuck around for a long time after that.








 

 
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 2:16:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:  Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried.

M60s still stuck around for a long time after that.
View Quote


 I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008.
Link Posted: 11/14/2016 3:14:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm confused - are we talking about the M240 or the M249? We have the M249 ready and the M60 in the pipeline.

Our game is an extension for the Squad game (www.joinsquad.com), so first person platoon/squad level action (50 players per side).

So I gather a lot of the gear in 1985 would be left over from Vietnam and in some cases in a distressed or worn or even sad condition? It seems there was a slump after that conflict ended and things picked up mid/late 80s with the Bradleys, Abrams and the M16A2? Is this a fair assesment? It's a question of how much wear we should paint and model and the frequency of jamming/vehicle breakdown etc.
View Quote


The M1 is fielding first in the 2Ad in 1980, by 1988, the production line was building M1A1s, and the first units to get the M1A1 was 1AD in 1988. Units in Desert Storm 1990- 1991 were reequipped with M1A1s, and the M1s brought into theater were given to the Marine Tank Battalions (The M60A1s the Marines had fire the same main gun ammunition as the M1). Bradley procurement ran about 18 months behind M1 procurement, so one of the brigades in 1AD did not have Bradleys by the time 1AD and 3 AD deployed from Europe, so a Bradley equipped brigade from 3ID went with 1AD.

This is background to answer your question as to what equipment and how worn it was depends on the date portrayed and the unit represented.

If you select a date of 1985, about half of USAEUR would have M60A3s, and about half M1s. Less than half of the units would have Bradleys, and the SAW and M16A2 had not yet arrived in Europe. Infantry units would be equipped with the M60 as well as support troops. The new stuff hit just before the Iron Curtain went down as a rule. Units in the north would have M1s and a good number of Bradleys. V Corps units had not yet gotten any new equipment other than the PASGT helmet. By 1988, the equipment situation had changed considerably because most procurement was shipped to Europe.
Link Posted: 11/16/2016 3:33:21 AM EDT
[#24]
+1 on the post above.

My father served in the IT army and beetween 1983 and 1991 he worked with US army based in Camp Ederle (vicenza)
Looking at the pics I have and the story told by my father the M16A1 and M60 were the standard. Things started to change slowly in 1984 with the newer PASGT gear and other stuff
Link Posted: 11/16/2016 3:44:10 AM EDT
[#25]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
 I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:  Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried.



M60s still stuck around for a long time after that.




 I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008.





Holy crap! I was a pig gunner [25th ID] on Ft Lewis in 1998 when we got our first M240B's new in the box.



 
Link Posted: 11/16/2016 11:48:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Holy crap! I was a pig gunner [25th ID] on Ft Lewis in 1998 when we got our first M240B's new in the box.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:  Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried.

M60s still stuck around for a long time after that.


 I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008.


Holy crap! I was a pig gunner [25th ID] on Ft Lewis in 1998 when we got our first M240B's new in the box.


3 years later I briefly served under 25th in Tallil.  Good times.  Then I got stuck @ Ali for 2 weeks in the tents.  It turned into good decompression time.
Link Posted: 11/16/2016 12:14:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 11/17/2016 6:39:58 PM EDT
[#28]
My very "new" condition A-1 in 1986.  (10th Mtn Div).

" />
Link Posted: 11/17/2016 6:43:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Sirs and Madams,

I am making an M16A1 3D model, which I'm trying to get just right. I have learned a lot from these forums but sometimes, I have a few questions, I was hoping you could answer. Here's a couple that struck me today:


  • Is it correct to assume the Colt 603 for US Army in Germany anno 1985?

  • Colors: Would these all be black or would the be a mix of grey and black? Or?

  • M203: Would these also have the same color and which color would they be?

  • Would there be any kind of personalisation? Like writing on the 203 heatshield?



Thank you very much
View Quote
Here's one that was converted to an A2, if you're looking for up close. This belonged to an Airman that was attached to us.


Link Posted: 11/17/2016 8:55:45 PM EDT
[#30]
We had a more professionally remarked Hydramatic "A2" in our arms room, but most of them were new-made Colt.
Link Posted: 11/27/2016 6:13:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Gents,

I have some problems trying to fit the charging handle latch. I've found a drawing for an AR-15 latch that doesn't seem to fit.



It might seem like a small thing but this will be in the players' faces 100% of the time, so I'd want it to be just right.

If anyone has a photo, one lying about...

Edit:



This will do :)
Link Posted: 11/28/2016 2:10:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Never mind, thispost told me all I needed to know. This community is a gold mine on many levels!
Link Posted: 11/28/2016 3:29:03 PM EDT
[#33]
You're making a computer game? I would like to visit a Scandinavian country, BTW.
Link Posted: 11/28/2016 7:15:39 PM EDT
[#34]
I was in the Security Police in the AF from 1981 to 1994. We had Colt M-16's. The original that did not have a forward assist. We had the XM-148 as a grenade launcher. We didn't get anything newer till the early days of Gulf-1.
Link Posted: 11/30/2016 4:05:51 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Never mind, thispost told me all I needed to know. This community is a gold mine on many levels!
View Quote


Yes, we are expanding the game Squad. And you are more than welcome, I'll show you around Copenhagen if you are ever in these parts :)
Link Posted: 11/30/2016 4:10:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was in the Security Police in the AF from 1981 to 1994. We had Colt M-16's. The original that did not have a forward assist. We had the XM-148 as a grenade launcher. We didn't get anything newer till the early days of Gulf-1.
View Quote


Super interesting. I've never seen that XM-148 before. Would it been in front line use in Germany in '85? We are assuming that a lot of old stuff would make it's way to the front as the shit hits the fan, ie M14s for Americans but also Garands for security troops on airfields and such. The same for the Soviets, once we are done with the shock troops and encounter reserves we are looking at T-55s (we've made one already), PPSHs etc.
Link Posted: 11/30/2016 11:05:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Super interesting. I've never seen that XM-148 before. Would it been in front line use in Germany in '85? We are assuming that a lot of old stuff would make it's way to the front as the shit hits the fan, ie M14s for Americans but also Garands for security troops on airfields and such. The same for the Soviets, once we are done with the shock troops and encounter reserves we are looking at T-55s (we've made one already), PPSHs etc.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was in the Security Police in the AF from 1981 to 1994. We had Colt M-16's. The original that did not have a forward assist. We had the XM-148 as a grenade launcher. We didn't get anything newer till the early days of Gulf-1.


Super interesting. I've never seen that XM-148 before. Would it been in front line use in Germany in '85? We are assuming that a lot of old stuff would make it's way to the front as the shit hits the fan, ie M14s for Americans but also Garands for security troops on airfields and such. The same for the Soviets, once we are done with the shock troops and encounter reserves we are looking at T-55s (we've made one already), PPSHs etc.

The Air Force is different from the Army in that small arms are not taken that seriously by the top of the organization. So very old weapons not in use by the Army will not be unusual in the Air Force.

If you are portraying a front line Army infantry unit in Europe of 1985, the M16A1 is all that you will see, attachment would be the M203 grenade launcher. The only time the Army used a non forward assist version, would be the Project Agile guns in 1965. The Army thought the forward assist was necessary and it was a requirement for production weapons bought by the Army.
Link Posted: 12/1/2016 1:31:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Excellent.

That particular grenade launcher I read as being used on the Commando version. We are also doing special forces a little later, so all this is super useful.
Link Posted: 12/1/2016 1:40:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Thanks.

I see bolts in both a black/dark blue parkerization and a light metal shade. Can you shed a light (pun intended), please? Which one should I choose and why are they different?

Here's what I have now on the bolt group:

Link Posted: 12/5/2016 9:44:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Forging flashes in the upper and front sights. Can someone explain a little about the process of manufacture and perhaps show me what they look like on the colt 603?
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 4:54:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Here's a little update on my progress:











I have so many questions for those that served in that period. For example: White phosphorous grenade M34? Issued in 1985 in case of  war with Soviets? To whom and in how many numbers? Or, designated marksman role in mechanized infantry squads: Normal? In how many numbers, issued M14s or scoped M16s? This is probably not the right context, so if anyone would like to act as an advisor or know someone that might - or can point me at a forum where these things are welcome, please do not hesitate to point me in the right direction :)

All the best for 2017!
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 5:29:55 AM EDT
[#42]
You're modeling is looking fantastic on my small iPhone op!

And thank you to all you guys commenting from personal experience. Both in helpin op and for your service.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 5:51:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Just some thoughts, others with more pertinent info from that era might be able to help.

The M60 was not issued at the squad level. It was a company asset. The M249 was to replace a role assigned to a guy with an M16A1.

If you want to go for authentic, not only would the aforementioned rack number help. But you need to damage the occasional handguard, and scratch it up a lot. The thin plastic on the projecting pieces forming the ventilation holes was very prone to breaking, was not unusual to see a piece snapped off by the time I joined up a few years later - my guess is it would have been the same then.

Bolt carriers were in a wide variety of shades of gray to black, perhaps based on manufacturer. Add to that you had the abuse put on them by the Army's concept of "cleaning."

I know the other guy mentioned gray slings, but all I ever saw were green ones, like so:

Link Posted: 1/2/2017 12:45:28 PM EDT
[#44]


I saw that and first thought was "That's an odd looking rear swivel." and then I realized it was a computer model and NOT a picture of a real stock!

So Top Props to OP!
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 1:35:44 PM EDT
[#45]
OP - some of your screen shots look like pictures of the actual stock.  Pretty amazing.

M-60 was issued @ platoon level in the weapons squad, no?  Or did they not have weapons squads in the 80's.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 1:41:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP - some of your screen shots look like pictures of the actual stock.  Pretty amazing.

M-60 was issued @ platoon level in the weapons squad, no?  Or did they not have weapons squads in the 80's.
View Quote


No, you're right, I just have apparently been out this way too long, and can't remember American units. Platoon of course, just not squad level, where the M249s went.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 2:14:46 PM EDT
[#47]
That looks amazing.  

US Army Bolt/carriers were parkerized, not chromed in the 1980's

also, the rear sling swivle looks wonky on this pic.



that looks like a newer CAV ARMS A1 copy

it should look like this...
















--------------

some receiver forging marks were cleaned up more than others....



Link Posted: 1/2/2017 3:02:30 PM EDT
[#48]
The bottom upper in the last picture of the above post is either a GM or a HRA upper.
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 3:32:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Your missing the third pin 
Link Posted: 1/2/2017 3:43:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The bottom upper in the last picture of the above post is either a GM or a HRA upper.
View Quote


yep

.
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