User Panel
Posted: 10/11/2016 4:21:58 PM EDT
Sirs and Madams,
I am making an M16A1 3D model, which I'm trying to get just right. I have learned a lot from these forums but sometimes, I have a few questions, I was hoping you could answer. Here's a couple that struck me today:
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The 603 model would be correct for a legacy M16A1, and many were still in issue at that time, though the M16A2 had officially been adopted 3 years earlier in 1982.
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M16A1 would be correct for the time. Many units didn't get M16A2's for 4-5 more years. As for writing on the heatshield? No.
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In 86 I never had a new rifle
till I deployed in 91. It was a brand new A1- Hydra-Matic made in 1966. And I was in West Germany and then Germany. If that helps you in your quest. |
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welcome
I was stationed in German in the mid 80s so Colors: Would these all be black or would the be a mix of grey and black? Or? View Quote grey finish with black handguard, stock, pistol grip and grey M14 sling ]M203: Would these also have the same color and which color would they be? View Quote same color as the M16A1 Would there be any kind of personalisation? Like writing on the 203 heatshield? View Quote never, the only marking that was ever on M16 was the rack number stenciled on the stock. in my unit the color of the rack number denoted what platoon that rifle was to ie. red for 1st platoon, blue 2nd platoon etc... but that was just our Bn SOP. other battlions may have used one color, white, for their entire rifles |
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Thank you very much for your time and insights.
I'll return when I'm a little further down the line. I've done the upper, lower and butt stock. I should be able to finish the rest within the week and will post here for accuracy. Thank you again. And thank you for making sure we are not having this conversation in Russian, Polish or German. |
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Quoted: Thank you very much for your time and insights.
I'll return when I'm a little further down the line. I've done the upper, lower and butt stock. I should be able to finish the rest within the week and will post here for accuracy. Thank you again. And thank you for making sure we are not having this conversation in Russian, Polish or German. View Quote You could put a left-handed shell deflector through the carry handle if you wanted some flavor. |
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Several months ago I found some vintage left hand she'll deflectors at Burns Surplus on I44 in Missouri. They had a bucket of them for $8 each. I bought one because I used one in 1989 on my M16A1 H&R rifle.
The A1 clone I have today is a Canadian upper so I just have the deflector as a conversation piece. |
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In 86 I never had a new rifle till I deployed in 91. It was a brand new A1- Hydra-Matic made in 1966. And I was in West Germany and then Germany. If that helps you in your quest. View Quote Thank you for your service. Just an FYI.....GM didn't start making the M16A1 until 1968. GM was first awarded the contract for 240,000 rifles on 04-19-68 and the first shipment was made in November of 68. |
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I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines.
We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. |
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I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines. We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. View Quote That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? |
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In early '88 with 3-34AR of the Big Red Weeny (1st Infantry Div Forward) we had A2s.
As part of in-processing we were supposed to bring our issue rifle to zero. All of the support unit people still had A1's, combat arms A2's. We were close to the last active unit to have 1911's, I wonder who the last A1 user was in the active Army. |
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That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines. We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? Do you mean M60 instead of 240B? The M249 supplemented the M60 (and later 240B), it didn't replace it. |
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Nicely modeled, OP.
Don't know how detailed your game is, but if you're going to put the M249 in there, it can feed from either a belt or M-16 magazines. It likes new magazines w/ fresh magazine springs. I imagine (pure speculation here) that in 1985, the M249, when fed from late-Vietnam era mags, jammed a lot. |
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That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines. We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? Yes. at that date only armor units had the M240 in the tank mounted versions for coax and gunner's machine gun. 1!AD with brigades in Vilseck, Erlangen, and Bamberg got M16A2s in the summer of 1988, so everybody had A1s until than. |
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I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines. We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. View Quote In the 1980s the order of fielding of new equipment would usually be XVIII Corps 82 ABN 101 AA 10 MTN 24 ID III Corps 2 AD 1 CAV 1 ID (Conus) 3 ACR V Corps 3ID 3AD 1 ID (Forward) 11 ACR VII Corps 2 ACR 1AD 8ID I Corps 2 ID 25 ID 6 ID FORSCOM 4 ID 5 ID 7 ID 9 ID National Guard Roundout brigades for 24 ID and 1 CAV were equipped when the active duty brigades were equipped 49 AD Texas 29 ID Virginia / Maryland 42 ID New York 40 ID Califirnia 50 AD New Jersey I've forgotten the order from there, but fielding new equipment was a 25 year project for everyone to get it. People forget that the unit at Kent State in 1970 were using M1 Garands. |
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Yes. at that date only armor units had the M240 in the tank mounted versions for coax and gunner's machine gun. 1!AD with brigades in Vilseck, Erlangen, and Bamberg got M16A2s in the summer of 1988, so everybody had A1s until than. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines. We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? Yes. at that date only armor units had the M240 in the tank mounted versions for coax and gunner's machine gun. 1!AD with brigades in Vilseck, Erlangen, and Bamberg got M16A2s in the summer of 1988, so everybody had A1s until than. I was in 4/70 AR in Erlangen at that time and that was my experience. We traded in the A1's in April 1988 along with our M60A3 tanks and got the M16A2 as that was the issue weapon for the M1A1 tanks (vs. the m3 grease gun which was issued with the M60 series tanks.) Even though the new recruits we were receiving trained on the M9 pistol, we still had the 1911's when I left in Nov 89. They were still using them during Desert Storm also. |
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I'm confused - are we talking about the M240 or the M249? We have the M249 ready and the M60 in the pipeline.
Our game is an extension for the Squad game (www.joinsquad.com), so first person platoon/squad level action (50 players per side). So I gather a lot of the gear in 1985 would be left over from Vietnam and in some cases in a distressed or worn or even sad condition? It seems there was a slump after that conflict ended and things picked up mid/late 80s with the Bradleys, Abrams and the M16A2? Is this a fair assesment? It's a question of how much wear we should paint and model and the frequency of jamming/vehicle breakdown etc. |
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Quoted: That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I was in the 82nd ABN in 1985, and the M16A1 was the only version in service. The only A2's I'd ever seen at that point were pictured in gun magazines. We were generally among the first to get new toys, too. Ours was the first brigade in the Army to get the (then) new M249, for example. That's really interesting. So should we go for the M-60 instead of the M249 for Germany 1985? Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried. M60s still stuck around for a long time after that. |
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I'm confused - are we talking about the M240 or the M249? We have the M249 ready and the M60 in the pipeline. Our game is an extension for the Squad game (www.joinsquad.com), so first person platoon/squad level action (50 players per side). So I gather a lot of the gear in 1985 would be left over from Vietnam and in some cases in a distressed or worn or even sad condition? It seems there was a slump after that conflict ended and things picked up mid/late 80s with the Bradleys, Abrams and the M16A2? Is this a fair assesment? It's a question of how much wear we should paint and model and the frequency of jamming/vehicle breakdown etc. View Quote The M1 is fielding first in the 2Ad in 1980, by 1988, the production line was building M1A1s, and the first units to get the M1A1 was 1AD in 1988. Units in Desert Storm 1990- 1991 were reequipped with M1A1s, and the M1s brought into theater were given to the Marine Tank Battalions (The M60A1s the Marines had fire the same main gun ammunition as the M1). Bradley procurement ran about 18 months behind M1 procurement, so one of the brigades in 1AD did not have Bradleys by the time 1AD and 3 AD deployed from Europe, so a Bradley equipped brigade from 3ID went with 1AD. This is background to answer your question as to what equipment and how worn it was depends on the date portrayed and the unit represented. If you select a date of 1985, about half of USAEUR would have M60A3s, and about half M1s. Less than half of the units would have Bradleys, and the SAW and M16A2 had not yet arrived in Europe. Infantry units would be equipped with the M60 as well as support troops. The new stuff hit just before the Iron Curtain went down as a rule. Units in the north would have M1s and a good number of Bradleys. V Corps units had not yet gotten any new equipment other than the PASGT helmet. By 1988, the equipment situation had changed considerably because most procurement was shipped to Europe. |
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+1 on the post above.
My father served in the IT army and beetween 1983 and 1991 he worked with US army based in Camp Ederle (vicenza) Looking at the pics I have and the story told by my father the M16A1 and M60 were the standard. Things started to change slowly in 1984 with the newer PASGT gear and other stuff |
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Quoted: I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried. M60s still stuck around for a long time after that. I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008. Holy crap! I was a pig gunner [25th ID] on Ft Lewis in 1998 when we got our first M240B's new in the box.
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Holy crap! I was a pig gunner [25th ID] on Ft Lewis in 1998 when we got our first M240B's new in the box. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted: Believe it or not, the M249 replaced the M16A1s that the designated "Automatic Riflemen" in the TO&E carried.
M60s still stuck around for a long time after that. I was (briefly) humping the M60 around the woods of Ft Lewis in OCS - in 2008. Holy crap! I was a pig gunner [25th ID] on Ft Lewis in 1998 when we got our first M240B's new in the box. 3 years later I briefly served under 25th in Tallil. Good times. Then I got stuck @ Ali for 2 weeks in the tents. It turned into good decompression time. |
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I was an armorer for a while back in the mid 80's.
The M16A1 was common Colt and H&R receivers were common, maybe a rare Hydra-matic once in a blue moon. I saw receivers stamped XM16E1 and M16A1. There may have been one or two others I came across, but I don't remember, it was over 30 years ago Black and a gray-ish black were common finish/colour on the buttstock triangle handguards lower receivers were black to bluish/purple gray stock markings varied by unit. mostly indicated a company and rack number example " C51 " would mean Charlie Company #51 common marking types were spray painted stencil numbers on the side of the buttstock, hand painted and even Dymo labeled stickers on the top of the stock, near the charging handle I saw red, white, yellow and green paint used. Dymo label colours varied M203 hand guards were all black. white range markings on the flip up sight and don't forget the carry handle mounted sight if you add the M203 |
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We had a more professionally remarked Hydramatic "A2" in our arms room, but most of them were new-made Colt.
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Never mind, thispost told me all I needed to know. This community is a gold mine on many levels!
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You're making a computer game? I would like to visit a Scandinavian country, BTW.
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I was in the Security Police in the AF from 1981 to 1994. We had Colt M-16's. The original that did not have a forward assist. We had the XM-148 as a grenade launcher. We didn't get anything newer till the early days of Gulf-1.
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I was in the Security Police in the AF from 1981 to 1994. We had Colt M-16's. The original that did not have a forward assist. We had the XM-148 as a grenade launcher. We didn't get anything newer till the early days of Gulf-1. View Quote Super interesting. I've never seen that XM-148 before. Would it been in front line use in Germany in '85? We are assuming that a lot of old stuff would make it's way to the front as the shit hits the fan, ie M14s for Americans but also Garands for security troops on airfields and such. The same for the Soviets, once we are done with the shock troops and encounter reserves we are looking at T-55s (we've made one already), PPSHs etc. |
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Super interesting. I've never seen that XM-148 before. Would it been in front line use in Germany in '85? We are assuming that a lot of old stuff would make it's way to the front as the shit hits the fan, ie M14s for Americans but also Garands for security troops on airfields and such. The same for the Soviets, once we are done with the shock troops and encounter reserves we are looking at T-55s (we've made one already), PPSHs etc. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I was in the Security Police in the AF from 1981 to 1994. We had Colt M-16's. The original that did not have a forward assist. We had the XM-148 as a grenade launcher. We didn't get anything newer till the early days of Gulf-1. Super interesting. I've never seen that XM-148 before. Would it been in front line use in Germany in '85? We are assuming that a lot of old stuff would make it's way to the front as the shit hits the fan, ie M14s for Americans but also Garands for security troops on airfields and such. The same for the Soviets, once we are done with the shock troops and encounter reserves we are looking at T-55s (we've made one already), PPSHs etc. The Air Force is different from the Army in that small arms are not taken that seriously by the top of the organization. So very old weapons not in use by the Army will not be unusual in the Air Force. If you are portraying a front line Army infantry unit in Europe of 1985, the M16A1 is all that you will see, attachment would be the M203 grenade launcher. The only time the Army used a non forward assist version, would be the Project Agile guns in 1965. The Army thought the forward assist was necessary and it was a requirement for production weapons bought by the Army. |
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Excellent.
That particular grenade launcher I read as being used on the Commando version. We are also doing special forces a little later, so all this is super useful. |
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Forging flashes in the upper and front sights. Can someone explain a little about the process of manufacture and perhaps show me what they look like on the colt 603?
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You're modeling is looking fantastic on my small iPhone op!
And thank you to all you guys commenting from personal experience. Both in helpin op and for your service. |
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OP - some of your screen shots look like pictures of the actual stock. Pretty amazing.
M-60 was issued @ platoon level in the weapons squad, no? Or did they not have weapons squads in the 80's. |
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OP - some of your screen shots look like pictures of the actual stock. Pretty amazing. M-60 was issued @ platoon level in the weapons squad, no? Or did they not have weapons squads in the 80's. View Quote No, you're right, I just have apparently been out this way too long, and can't remember American units. Platoon of course, just not squad level, where the M249s went. |
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The bottom upper in the last picture of the above post is either a GM or a HRA upper.
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