So LL left me some trinkets outside the bat cave for my XM16E1. An all original vintage Colt FCG. Who wants to hook me up with some retro parts for his picture. Look at that beautiful hammer trigger and selector. Can't see the original disconector in it. Oooooh ahhhhhh! Traded a chrome XM16E1 carrier and a original colt milled FPRP for it. Not cheap but now she is about as correct as the come other than the NDS lower and no auto sear. Everything else is correct! Ugh all the money and time spent working on this. Now it's done. Retro black rifle disease will ruin you financially! Beware!

WpnsMan sorry for my smartassed comments was pained by cutting my new retro original parts. Was humorous though. Also got a lot of opinions and great tutorial on modding M16 parts to Semi Auto legal spec!  Let the story begin. This story is epic!
CENSORED EVIL CLONE PIC REMOVED WORLD IS SAFER NOW !!! Thanks for your sound and thoughtful safety and expert legal advice on NFA regulations WpnsMan!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/695830_So_I_went_retro_shopping_at_the_bat_cave_in_Plugerville_Texas_Update_we_can_all_sleep_better_now_.html&page=2#i7192703

RANGE REPORT
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/695830_UPDATE_see_Latest_post_shopping_at_the_bat_cave_in_Plugerville_Texas_Update__RANGE_REPORT.html&page=3#i7193854

Awesome. Who did the engraving?

Justinbowser he is a member here lives near Fort Worth.

Nice!

You have one of the best XM16E1s on the forum, and it just got better

Thanks! So anyone wanna start the bid for LLs pic I was offered a A1 stock set from one member.

really nice

Thanks for the information, it looks like your engraver got the word "auto" in virtually the exact text or font as "semi" and "safe".
Some engraving that I have seen the font is significantly different, and when you're going for as perfect as possible, that difference really seems to matter.
I'll see if I can dig up his contact information, and see if you wants to do a couple more

Here check this out its the whole story! Does great work!

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=654752

IIRC, you're supposed to modify the M16 fire control parts before installing them in a semi-auto AR. Otherwise, she's a real beaut'!

It doesn't matter as long as it doesn't fire full auto. That's just extra insurance. It has no sear so it won't fire FA no matter what.bif it happens to fire FA I'm screwed but I'm willing to take the risk. Although
It's highly recommended by the ATF.

+1.  that's always been my take.  i can't bring myself to modify early colt parts.

I like your XM16E1 clone, nice to see the dimpled parts.  From the title of this post it sounds like you got to visit the firearms museum in Plugerville, is that right?  

Yes this is true, Boywonders bat cave is a highly guarded secret and yes you never get to see him. He leaves his wares at a secret dead drop area outside the cave entrance. But yes I know and have visited his secret hiding place. I also might have snapped a secret pic. Only people like Reed Knight have actually been inside. I did however get his pic secretly. I was hoping Matt would exchange it for one of his beautiful 607 stocks but I'm up for their offers. Lol.

i think only you and AR-10er could pick me out of a lineup

Bet i could BTW I like the style of your glasses....

So...is that an early XM? And is that the reason for the dimpled parts? Are the take down and pivot pins dimpled too? Very nice rifle . Did you have to go through a TSA "type" screening process to get in the "wonder cave"? A visit is on my bucket list.

Thanks and yes very very early see link below for pics. Also yes something like that you have to be screened LOL. I am sworn to secrecy!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/695686_Colt_will_be_producing__semi__XM177_and_M16A1_rifles.html&page=3#i7190318

I'm not trying to be a prude, but personal experience on a friends build, original parts  even without a sear will also run "faster" than usual when placed into the third position. The semi disconnector will keep you much safer than the long one with the tail on it.
Very nice build, enjoy it and thanks for sharing.

OMG, I am so jealous!  Lionel, BTW, is a great guy.

I understand the concern and the risk of visit to Club Fed if it goes full Auto. I don't shoot it very much and when I do its on private property far far away from any city polulace. Thanks for the compliments though. I think some early colts SP1s came with FA parts.

Only part I haven't sourced is the dimpled rear sight screw.  Need an original. The bat cave is fresh out. Can you believe that.

Engraving is spot on...is he taking new work?

Hit em up hey might be names Justinbowser on here.

There is a reason Colt developed the semi FCG. Just because the ATF has allowed FA Bolt Carrier's for the last decade does not mean you are OK with the FCG. It doesn't matter if you try to use it or not, with the parts currently in it, you are in violation.

The FA sear does not prevent FA if not installed, it ensures the bolt is fully in battery before it happens.

Neuter them or, take them out,

Wpns Man

Hey, isn't there a bday party coming up for P?

Dremel job done thanks for looking out! Man it's so much safer in the world and I feel so much better by doing my part!

Step one in making the world a safer place purchase dremel from local Walmart

Step two Locate evil vintage 52 year old NFA parts.







Step three chop of evil bits to make us all sleep easier at night with dremel cutting wheel destroying rare historical parts







Step four use grinding wheel to smooth out cutting marks and apply cold blue

Step five apply lubricant to non offending and safe AR15 spec parts to prevent corrosion.

Step 6 install non offending and safe AR 15 spec parts into semi automatic clone XM16E1




Step seven dispose of evil NFA M16 bits into garbage can

Step eight take picture of non offending AR 15 clone XM16E1 and post to Internet forum to make the world safer

If I'm "P" then YES. Send me retro toys!

You know with the US Property markings you could open yourself up to a theft charge if somebody thinks you might have stolen that from the army. Also the words auto and faux sear pin could cause someone unreasonable anxiety at the thought of you having a full auto and could cause you to get shot by a triggered LE officer therefore I suggest you grind off all markings to include the serial number just to be safe

She lQQks good, don't see a thing wrong with her

Nodak Spud has been known to be used by the armed forces. In fact I qualified at the rifle range with one the other day. Lol more internet lawyers and cops! Lol I thought you were serious for a min lol Let me fire that dremel up again! Your are so right about that!

OUCH, I could never do that to an original dimpled selector

I didn't want anyone to be scared and call the ATF, doing my part to keep the community safe! After all the weapon might fire more than one round with each trigger pull.

Sarcasm or Smartass..........not sure which.

The fact is that an unmodified FA FCG WILL allow it to slam-fire more than one round with each pull of the trigger. Don't let anyone tell you different or, delude yourself that it won't. Obviously you took heed so, good for you.

Having original FCG parts is irrelevant on a semi and does not increase the value of a retro as they have to be neutered to stay legal. I get using a dimpled and modified selector as I've done it myself. The only value I see in utilizing the FA FCG is they are better quality than 90% of the Semi junk being peddled today after being modified. Triggers are a pain to modify as they need to have the rear welded up but, I modify Hammers and Disconnectors when I can find them.

YMMV,

Wpns Man

An unmodified selector does NOTHING (wrong, bad, etc) as long as the other FC parts are neutered.  I find that the tail I remove from the disconnector is the perfect size for welding into the back of the trigger channel.

All of the above!

Not to start this argument again, but we've always prided ourselves on accuracy here and I have questions about the two statements in red above.

First, does the first statement mean that unmodified parts will always "slamfire," or that they will not prevent a slamfire if other circumstances cause one to happen?

And second, can anyone point me to the law or ATF letter which states these parts must be neutered?

Thanks.

Hey the positive side of this makes a great tutorial on how to nueter your FA parts. A lot of smartass injected of course but useful especially for the guys who ask about it. This is a classic situation of a thread deserving of a pin. What yah think Coctailer?

BROvet; It's all good

M16Indiana; I have also used the cut tail of the disconnector to weld into the open slot of the trigger, it is just a pain if you don't have ready access to a welder. Buying a Semi trigger is just easier for the average Joe. Unmodified Selectors will operate Safe, Semi and Safe with a semi or modified trigger. A Modified selector will operate Safe, Semi and Semi with any trigger.



AR-15's are so prevalent today that the economy of scale in manufacturing Semi FCG's makes using a FA FCG a non-issue in cost savings for a manufacture/assembler of AR-15's.

A FA FCG minus the auto sear will fire automatically when put in the AUTO position as the selector disengages the disconnector. After the first round, the hammer will follow the carrier forward with enough inertia to fire, I.E. Slam fire. It is not reliable or safe.

Legal; the ATF has been back and forth on their rulings for years. Colt just didn't design proprietary semi parts for nothing when the SP1 was originally introduced. It was to satisfy the ATF. In the late 70's early 80's when other lowers became available, the only FCG parts readily available were surplus FA M16 groups. This prompted the extra selector stop nub or pin on the side of the lower to prevent a FA selector from being able to rotate into the Auto position. Remember, these were the Good ole' Days before they deemed DIAS as a NFA item. Then we saw Semi FCG's being manufactured and installed in all non-Colt AR-15's. Why, because the ATF ruled M16 FCG's a No-Go in an AR-15. Then they ruled that even one M16 part could be ruled as constructive intent to include the Bolt Carrier. While they later allowed FA carriers I've never seen anything to allow FA FCG components as being deemed OK.  

There are diagrams that show the difference between AR-15, M16 and properly modified M16 components out there. They are in use by Agents and other LE when you've actually done something to make them "care". That is the reason I wouldn't run an unmodified selector or hammer in an AR-15.

It's just not worth the potential problems to make your build into something it will never be, YMMV and proceed at your own discretion.

Wpns Man

Exactly.  Since most of our retro weapons are marked "SAFE, SEMI, FULL" I like the idea of NOTHING happening when the selector is rotated into the "FULL" position.  Just the ownership of a FA FCG and a semi AR15 COULD be construed by the BATFE as "constructive intent" if they want to get technical. The firearms laws are VAGUE for a reason. It's all about IF they want to get you for "something".

True, they are vague and ever changing.

I would venture that most LE out there will refer to the previously mentioned diagrams if there is any doubt and many will most likely operate on the No unmodified components allowed theory as that is the safe bet for them.

It would then be up to you to lawyer up and get a current opinion from the ATF to prove you are compliant. Just not worth the potential hassle and cost especially when the ATF opinion is ever changing and not etched in stone.

Wpns Man

I would venture to say the many LE out there would see the "FULL" position on out retro builds as a "FULL AUTO" and as such, it would be a safe bet for them to confiscate the weapon and contact the ATF.

It would then be up to us to lawer up and get a current opinion from the ATF to prove we are compliant.  Just not worth the potential hassle and cost especially when the ATF opinion is ever changing and not etched in stone.  

SO, to be SAFE (and able to sleep at night),  everyone should grind off the "FULL" markings and the fake auto sear pin holes on your builds

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying or alluding to. Do whatever your comfortable with........

With that, I'm out.

Wpns Man

I realize that, and I'm not trying to slam you personally.  I'm just saying that the SAME "logic" and "reasoning" can be applied to the "FULL" markings on our builds.

A friend of mine had a "non-gun" (toy) MP-40 in his car, and someone saw it at a gas station & called the police.  He TRIED to explain to them that it was only a toy, but they would no listen to him.  He spent four hours in a cell before the ATF arrived.  The agent picked up the MGC MP-40, said "toy" and walked out of the police station.  The police had held him because of the CHANCE that it might be an illegal machine gun.  What would those same police do if they saw the "FULL" markings on one of our retro builds?

Lawsuit against your local law enforcement might be justified!  Always good to have a lawyer on retainer and know how to deal with Police. Always invoke you right to remain silent and call your lawyer!

Why sue the law enforcement for "trying" to do their job in good faith?

+1

Depends on the situation if it is deemed harassment by your lawyer. Not all cops are bad but doesn't mean they follow the laws they are supposed to enforce. Or even know the law, but make assumptions. They need to know they have to obey the laws as well. They are not above them.

OK, then without further discourse into the ever-changing opinions of the ATF, let's focus on the technical detail in red above.  If the selector-disconnector interaction is the specific factor involved in this problem, then would the modification of the disconnector alone eliminate the possibility?

I'm not asking about what the ATF would say or an LEO might think.  I'm looking at this solely as a technical question.
Once that single piece is changed (disconnector tail is removed) does making any of the other mods have any effect on the likelihood of a multiple-round discharge?

Most lawyers will ALWAYS see "harassment" because THEY want a payday.  How does a police officer trying to do his/her/its job put them "above the law"?  Sure, if they tried to arrest you "multiple times" for the same NON offense, but not the first time.

Exactly I agree! No different than any other FCG except third position and more mass in hammer. Just SAFE SEMI SEMI