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Posted: 11/30/2015 6:38:02 PM EDT
One of my favorite video game franchises is Metal Gear Solid. The one I enjoy the most is the one that is set in the mid-1960's: Metal gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. I won't go into a bunch of details, but I've made some props for it to use at conventions etc. After finishing my 604 build, I went and looked at some of the details they use in-game.
They have the main character using an "XM16" in 1964 and a bunch of the small details, things I would have never have noticed without you people, are wrong (the lower, muzzle device, etc etc). Since I refuse to deliberately make an incorrect retro and since I want to do something different if when I do another build, I figured I'd go to the next retro thing that is in the game.

The weapon used by one of the major bosses in the game...


The Patriot


If you aren't already reeling in a combined mix of "oh lord what is that monstrosity", it gets better. Aside from supposedly existing in 1964 and having all sorts of mixed up parts, it also had some just plain craziness to it.

The Patriot was a modified version of the XM16E1, with a shortened barrel and the stock removed. It was designed in order to create a carbine that combined the feel and quick handling of a handgun with the force of a rifle. The relatively light weight meant that the Patriot had a strong recoil, and was notoriously difficult to aim. The fact that The Boss used it one-handed was a testament to her skill. It used 5.56x45mm ammunition and was fitted with a hundred-round drum magazine, with the internal feed mechanism shaped like an infinity symbol (8). The blast of the muzzle was said to resemble the sound of a threatened rattlesnake, and that no one who heard the sound would live to tell the tale. The bullets didn't leave the gun straight; they flip and twist upon leaving the gun.
View Quote



Clearly this is where those myths of 5.56's mythical tumbling power comes from.

Some websites, such as IMFDB, claim it is based off of the M231, which is wrong. Aside from being way to early for the FPW, the selector is not correct and the receiver extension is too long. It is clearly some magically modified retro. Also, for those wondering, there is no front sight.

-----


I'm not the first person to want to do this, but if the Retro forum has taught me anything (and doing prop recreation), it is that the devil is in the details. That is why a bunch of the other attempts have me frustrated.

Company 1: Rocky Mountain Arms made a version of this that was offered with an A2 or flat-top upper, already noticeably wrong. The muzzle device was a standard flash hider, it used an A2 grip, and the sling attachment point is wrong. They did do a pretty good job on the handguard and the gas block though.

Company 2: Snake Hound Machine, also large fans of the series (Snake is the main character's code name, Hound references a group from the game, "Fox Hound"), made a version. Theirs used a Anderson MFG flat-top receiver set with a screw-on A2 carry handle, and then they made it worse by adding in all sorts of fancy new things: BAD-ASS ambidextrous safety, Raptor ambidextrous charging handle, some fancy pistol grip, some handguard that is way too short, and a commercial railed gas block. They did make their own custom muzzle device that is pretty spot on to the game.

Airsoft: A company makes airsoft external kits for this. It is just a muzzle device and a handguard, so it is up to the user to pick the correct receivers. The muzzle device is wrong, the handguard tube is a bit too small, and, well, it's airsoft. Anyone can do that more easily than making a real one. Not as much fun or impressive.


So here is where I step in. A bunch of time collecting screenshots, squinting, measuring things, and doing more retro research, I'm pretty sure I have the information I need to do this. Try not to cringe as I mash together a bunch of retros.

Upper: XM16E1. FA but no deflector. Original or NDS. Proper ejection port door and tear drop FA.
Lower: M16A1 "Full Fence". Probably going to grab one from NDS. As much as it would be cheaper to use an A2, the markings would bug me more than the incorrect profile.
Lower Parts: A1 pistol grip. Small parts are never really seen, but I'd assume a no-tick selector would be in order.
BCG: Parkerized with F/A cuts. Modern production would be fine here.
Barrel: Measurements say a 7" barrel, but I might have to go with a 7.5" just to make the thing work well
Receiver Extension: Measurements say it should extend ˜5.5" off the rear of the receiver. It also doesn't appear to have a castle nut. Finding the right thing here will be a bit of a pain.

Muzzle Device: If SHM still makes theirs, I'll grab theirs. if not, I've already gotten the proper measurements and could have it custom made if needed.
Gas Block: Images and measurements show this is basically a block. I'll have to get this custom made.
Handguard: This would have to be custom. Existing ones are too small ID wise to do the proper gas block and even then most aren't the correct length. I've drawn up an idea that would use some aluminum tubing with a step down at the end that would allow it to thread onto a YHM barrel nut. Not sure if it would be best to do it out of one piece and bore it out or two pieces and weld it together. Then add the proper grooves / knurling. Length would be dependent on what barrel I went with.
"Sling" Attachment Point: If you look at the first image, you'll see a rectangular flat patch by the rear of the receiver. That's a belt clip. Yeah.

So here are my questions for you guys:

  • Am I completely nuts for wanting to do this?

  • Is anyone here familiar with pistol buffer options?

  • Would I be OK trying to work with a "normal" machine shop for the gas block, muzzle device, and handguard? I've taken the critical tolerances from the M16 drawings I have and plan to use those

  • I am 99% sure that any upper I use is going to have standard feed ramps, not M4 ramps, and any barrel I use will have M4 ramps. For rifles I've read this isn't an issue, but what about in something this absurd?

  • I've found some inexpensive uppers, but they have small cracks in them. How costly are these to get re-welded? Would it be worth it for something like this?

  • This still counts as retro, right?




Enough words! Time for renders!
Ignore the A2 grip, the incorrect upper, and lack of knurling on the handguard. Also, the receiver extension is a bit too long and I might need to make the gas block a hair longer or add a bit of rear length to the muzzle device. In the game there is no gap between the gas block and the muzzle device.

Trimetric



Hooray for bad influences.


.
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 7:03:18 PM EDT
[#1]
A) You're not crazy for wanting to make this abomination, and it's certainly doable.  

I am both a certified RBRD patient, and as a video game artist.  From that perspective, I will say that games are terrible at following spec.  That gun is intended to be an M16.  The fact that it's not modeled to spec shouldn't throw you.  Most game artists don't have access to the real deal, and when they do, they're not using calipers to get things accurate.  They're looking at the thing, and then looking at their model.  If it looks good enough, it's good enough.  And I will say that guns are super restricted in Japan, and I almost guarantee you, that the Japanese game artist behind this model, has never seen an AR15 in person in his life.

So, with that, I'd say, don't worry about making it super accurate to the in game model.  Make it functional and based on the in game model where reasonable.  For instance, the game model doesn't have a gas tube.  Does that mean yours shouldn't have a gas tube? No.  That means, use a standard float tube for the handguard.  If there isn't one that's the right length, get one cut down.  Do it free float.  Draw up a gas block that looks the part, but fits within the space allowed by the handguards.

I live in CA, where SBRs are as rare as Unicorn testicles.  So, we have pistol ARs instead.  There are many commercial pistol buffer tubes available.  Most will have a castle nut, but you might be able to find one that doesn't.  Another option would be to use a rifle buffer tube, just without the stock (though I'm not sure where that gets into NFA territory?)


Edit:

Note that the handguards don't appear to be knurled so much as ribbed.




Here's a 1/6th scale model someone made for their GI Joe:
http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/forum/788725-post14.html

And another:
https://bmedicom.runboard.com/t13028,offset=0

And someone's custom prop for conventions and such:
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 7:04:36 PM EDT
[#2]
IDK, shooting 62 grain out of my 1:12 AR-180 had them instantly losing stability and keyholing at 25 yards.  Short barrel like that, maybe with a lot of rounds through it, I could see immediate keyholing being a thing. Instant fleet yaw terminal effects would be pretty nasty.






Get a 1:14 or 1:12 barrel and shoot 62+ grain, it'll act like the description.
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 7:12:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A) You're not crazy for wanting to make this abomination, and it's certainly doable.  

I am both a certified RBRD patient, and as a video game artist.  From that perspective, I will say that games are terrible at following spec.  That gun is intended to be an M16.  The fact that it's not modeled to spec shouldn't throw you.  Most game artists don't have access to the real deal, and when they do, they're not using calipers to get things accurate.  They're looking at the thing, and then looking at their model.  If it looks good enough, it's good enough.  And I will say that guns are super restricted in Japan, and I almost guarantee you, that the Japanese game artist behind this model, has never seen an AR15 in person in his life.

So, with that, I'd say, don't worry about making it super accurate to the in game model.  Make it functional and based on the in game model where reasonable.  For instance, the game model doesn't have a gas tube.  Does that mean yours shouldn't have a gas tube? No.  That means, use a standard float tube for the handguard.  If there isn't one that's the right length, get one cut down.  Do it free float.  Draw up a gas block that looks the part, but fits within the space allowed by the handguards.

I live in CA, where SBRs are as rare as Unicorn testicles.  So, we have pistol ARs instead.  There are many commercial pistol buffer tubes available.  Most will have a castle nut, but you might be able to find one that doesn't.  Another option would be to use a rifle buffer tube, just without the stock (though I'm not sure where that gets into NFA territory?)


Edit:

Note that the handguards don't appear to be knurled so much as ribbed.

http://i.imgur.com/buxN1.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/i99.photobucket.com/albums/l300/kman866/patriot.jpg

Here's a 1/6th scale model someone made for their GI Joe:
http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/forum/788725-post14.html

And another:
https://bmedicom.runboard.com/t13028,offset=0

And someone's custom prop for conventions and such:
http://img13.deviantart.net/c218/i/2013/016/f/1/patriot_by_gundam505-d5rql53.jpg
View Quote


Turner had no idea you were a video game artist. You should shoot me a pm and we can talk sometime so as not to derail the thread!
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 7:34:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Do it
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 7:53:49 PM EDT
[#5]





Rocky Mountain Arms Patriot pistol all I need is the drum















































it jus the upper it siting on my 635 lower that cane from morg it on a different lower now
 
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 10:15:47 PM EDT
[#6]
If you are looking for an upper call Indiana Army Surplus.Slim said that he had GM or H&R uppers. They are white uppers (no finish or a little finish on them that was not taken off). I bought two from him the other day. I think he now has four left but I could be wrong on that.

There is also a member here that I'm in talks with on buying a Colt and one that might be either a Colt or a GM or H&R upper. The member told that it was a bit different on the edges so I'm taking that it is more than likely a GM or H&R. He was reasonable on his prices too. One was finished with factor finish the other had been refinished at one time and might need it again.

This build looks like it will be a really cool build. It would be a different retro style build. I love all the retro builds and I have seen some in my search that do either retro build of movie guns, TV guns and now video game guns. So this is really an awesome idea and something new.

Keep us posted on this build. I can't wait to see it as it comes together.
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 11:04:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A) You're not crazy for wanting to make this abomination, and it's certainly doable.  

I am both a certified RBRD patient, and as a video game artist.  From that perspective, I will say that games are terrible at following spec.  That gun is intended to be an M16.  The fact that it's not modeled to spec shouldn't throw you.  Most game artists don't have access to the real deal, and when they do, they're not using calipers to get things accurate.  They're looking at the thing, and then looking at their model.  If it looks good enough, it's good enough.  And I will say that guns are super restricted in Japan, and I almost guarantee you, that the Japanese game artist behind this model, has never seen an AR15 in person in his life.

So, with that, I'd say, don't worry about making it super accurate to the in game model.  Make it functional and based on the in game model where reasonable.  For instance, the game model doesn't have a gas tube.  Does that mean yours shouldn't have a gas tube? No.  That means, use a standard float tube for the handguard.  If there isn't one that's the right length, get one cut down.  Do it free float.  Draw up a gas block that looks the part, but fits within the space allowed by the handguards.

I live in CA, where SBRs are as rare as Unicorn testicles.  So, we have pistol ARs instead.  There are many commercial pistol buffer tubes available.  Most will have a castle nut, but you might be able to find one that doesn't.  Another option would be to use a rifle buffer tube, just without the stock (though I'm not sure where that gets into NFA territory?)
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A) You're not crazy for wanting to make this abomination, and it's certainly doable.  

I am both a certified RBRD patient, and as a video game artist.  From that perspective, I will say that games are terrible at following spec.  That gun is intended to be an M16.  The fact that it's not modeled to spec shouldn't throw you.  Most game artists don't have access to the real deal, and when they do, they're not using calipers to get things accurate.  They're looking at the thing, and then looking at their model.  If it looks good enough, it's good enough.  And I will say that guns are super restricted in Japan, and I almost guarantee you, that the Japanese game artist behind this model, has never seen an AR15 in person in his life.

So, with that, I'd say, don't worry about making it super accurate to the in game model.  Make it functional and based on the in game model where reasonable.  For instance, the game model doesn't have a gas tube.  Does that mean yours shouldn't have a gas tube? No.  That means, use a standard float tube for the handguard.  If there isn't one that's the right length, get one cut down.  Do it free float.  Draw up a gas block that looks the part, but fits within the space allowed by the handguards.

I live in CA, where SBRs are as rare as Unicorn testicles.  So, we have pistol ARs instead.  There are many commercial pistol buffer tubes available.  Most will have a castle nut, but you might be able to find one that doesn't.  Another option would be to use a rifle buffer tube, just without the stock (though I'm not sure where that gets into NFA territory?)



-Most of the stuff in Metal Gear Solid is pretty close to spec, just some parts out of place. MGS4 was actually darn near spot on. While Japan has limited access, for a title this big I am sure they did field research. Maybe not full-on measurements, but that is why I am taking some liberties with my measurements. I'm scaling things off a major component of a known length: the receivers. From there if I get crazy dimensions of a part, like a barrel length of 6.927", I'm assuming it's 7".

-The Rifle buffer tube is an option if you modify it to prevent it from being able to have a stock anymore. Some are made that way specifically for pistols.

-Any help with pistol systems you can point me to would be awesome. So far the best option for the receiver extension I have found is here.

-Those 1/6th scale ones, there are a few. One is not official, but there are two others that are made for the Metal Gear Solid action figure. One has tapered handguards, the other has a more correct tube.

-The convention one is foam. I've done the Knife and PTT/VOX box using similar measuring methods, but I did them out of additive manufacturing / "3d printing".

I already have CAD done for the gas block and the muzzle device. The handguard is what I'd be willing to give on the most since a custom one will most likely be a bigger pain.


Quoted:
Rocky Mountain Arms Patriot pistol all I need is the drum
it jus the upper it siting on my 635 lower that cane from morg it on a different lower now
 


The shell deflector and muzzle device irk me.
Link Posted: 11/30/2015 11:31:34 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm not sure what you mean by "pistol systems"?  The link you provided looks like exactly what you want.  Just toss a carbine spring and buffer in there and you're GTG.

For the handguards, they're pretty simple.  If you can source a foot long section of 2" stock, any number of the talented metal smiths around here with a lathe could probably turn down what you're looking for exactly.  You'd just need to give them the dimensions and the chunk of metal to work with.
Link Posted: 12/1/2015 2:37:04 AM EDT
[#9]
You can probably use an entry buffer tube...
Link Posted: 12/1/2015 3:33:26 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


-The Rifle buffer tube is an option if you modify it to prevent it from being able to have a stock anymore. Some are made that way specifically for pistols.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:   Another option would be to use a rifle buffer tube, just without the stock (though I'm not sure where that gets into NFA territory?)


-The Rifle buffer tube is an option if you modify it to prevent it from being able to have a stock anymore. Some are made that way specifically for pistols.


There is NO requirement to modify a buffer tube for a pistol build.  A rifle buffer tube works nicely as a cheekpiece, going over your shoulder, in fact.

What you don't want to do is ONLY possess an AR pistol, w/ a rifle or carbine buffer tube, AND possess the stock that goes on that tube, w/o any other AR lowers.

The myth that a pistol lower has to be engraved as pistol, and that special pistol buffer tubes have to be used, is a myth perpetuated by unscrupulous dealers who are selling pistol engraved lowers and special pistol buffer tubes.

OP, as someone else has has stated, you'd probably do well w/ an entry length tube.  If you can find the right length "pistol" tube that works for cheaper, do that.
Link Posted: 12/1/2015 11:14:28 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not sure what you mean by "pistol systems"?  The link you provided looks like exactly what you want.  Just toss a carbine spring and buffer in there and you're GTG.

For the handguards, they're pretty simple.  If you can source a foot long section of 2" stock, any number of the talented metal smiths around here with a lathe could probably turn down what you're looking for exactly.  You'd just need to give them the dimensions and the chunk of metal to work with.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not sure what you mean by "pistol systems"?  The link you provided looks like exactly what you want.  Just toss a carbine spring and buffer in there and you're GTG.

For the handguards, they're pretty simple.  If you can source a foot long section of 2" stock, any number of the talented metal smiths around here with a lathe could probably turn down what you're looking for exactly.  You'd just need to give them the dimensions and the chunk of metal to work with.


You answered my question. I didn't know if pistols needed some special buffer or fancy internals. I swear I've seen some with some specialized stuff, but I wasn't sure if that was needed or just people using it for reduced length.
As for the handguard, that was my plan. Get some stock or tubing, have it turned/bored to the right dimensions, and then add the threading for the YHM barrel nut.

Quoted:
You can probably use an entry buffer tube...


I'm guessing an entry buffer tube is what is used for the super-short fixed stocks like the Troy Battle Axe and some of the short ACE stuff?

Quoted:

There is NO requirement to modify a buffer tube for a pistol build.  A rifle buffer tube works nicely as a cheekpiece, going over your shoulder, in fact.

What you don't want to do is ONLY possess an AR pistol, w/ a rifle or carbine buffer tube, AND possess the stock that goes on that tube, w/o any other AR lowers.


Thanks for the clarification. I think I may have read that regarding having the components to assemble / only having that receiver and gotten it confused. Either way, the receiver extension I posted/found looks like it will be spot on to what I need.
Link Posted: 12/1/2015 11:43:31 AM EDT
[#12]
There are definitely some pistols that have special systems. The OA-93 is a good example, where they reengineered the gas and recoil systems so that they could ditch the receiver extension.   But you can make a pistol with a standard buffertube, no problem.

Link Posted: 12/9/2015 8:15:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Thank you for your order from Palmetto State Armory.
AR15 5.56 7.0" 1:9 Nitride Barrel with M4 Extension - 45814
PSA 5.56 NATO 9310 Bolt Carrier Group
View Quote


Well, the science has started. I hate you all Thanks for the inspiration.
Once I get the barrel I can plan the custom parts around it.
Link Posted: 12/12/2015 5:26:52 PM EDT
[#14]
With the barrel and BCG on order, I figured I'd prepare by making the prototypes of the brake and gas block to test size, design, and proportions.
Didn't get a chance to do the gas block yet, but here is the muzzle brake. It was made on a lower end, "consumer grade" additive machine / 3D Printer with the "draft" print settings. The resolution isn't as good as it could be and the layer thickness is greater for print speed vs detail, but for my purposes that will be fine. I also didn't add in the wrench flats to the print model as it wouldn't gain anything from that.

Based on my research, the material for this should be 4140, heat treated to a core hardness and then a case hardness. Parkerized too, of course. Should be fairly easy to have it machined based on the required operations.


Here it is fresh of the printer. You can see the supports for the inside and overhangs.



Supports are removed, but it needs to be cleaned up where they broke off. Ok, it doesn't need to be for my use, but I felt like it.



Here it is after some light filing.



Link Posted: 12/13/2015 3:58:07 PM EDT
[#15]
How about a 300 bo with a fsb?


300 bo due to the real short barrel.
Link Posted: 12/13/2015 4:53:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How about a 300 bo with a fsb?
View Quote


What about it? A bit confused by the question.
Link Posted: 12/17/2015 9:39:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Here is the print of the gas block. As you can see, it is basically a block.




The barrel arrived today too! It is so damn tiny.


The prototypes are a bit undersized so I can't test fit them just yet. More updated models to come soon once I model the actual barrel I have.
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 1:17:11 AM EDT
[#18]
Twist that gas tube into a prezel, and loop it around the bbl a few times, perhaps?
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 10:49:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Twist that gas tube into a prezel, and loop it around the bbl a few times, perhaps?
View Quote


I've heard the pig-tail gas tubes are only particularly useful for a few applications. PSA sells and upper with this barrel and a standard pistol gas tube with no issues, so I am not too worried about function. Even then, there is nothing practical about this build. It is completely for fun and will be a range toy. Absolutely not a home-defense anything; I get the feeling that discharging a 7" barrel with a massive brake inside would leave me blind and deaf.

I got the plastic parts fitted last night after hitting them with a drill. Brake looks good but I may make the gas block a little longer as it looks to essentially meet the brake in the game. The concerns with that are potentially weight, as the gas block is literally just a block.
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 11:22:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 1:44:19 PM EDT
[#21]


















































now its on my polymer lower with a lazier you can see the gas block is keys to the barrel so it wont rotate





 
Link Posted: 12/18/2015 3:29:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

<A bunch of photos were here>

now its on my polymer lower with a lazier you can see the gas block is keys to the barrel so it wont rotate


 
View Quote


That gas tube and gas block position look a bit unusual! The gas port on the barrel I bought is a bit further back from the threading, although that gas block is certainly lighter than what mine will be.

If possible, could you get a good picture of the barrel nut, the handguard, and how they fit together? I am trying to figure out which barrel nut to use for my handguard and that looks like the YHM or MI one with the external threading. I'm currently looking at one of those thread-on types for the tube or the Seekins / Radical type where it bolts on with screws.

Link Posted: 12/19/2015 2:24:36 AM EDT
[#23]















































































































so you can see the ID of the tube is threaded and the barrel nut is threaded on the OD with a O ring to keep it from unthreading


old school free float I think I have an old OLMPIC upper that's set up the same way














sorrey the photos are crap we down to the cell phone killed or lost 3-4 cameras this year LOL








 
Link Posted: 12/19/2015 5:45:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so you can see the ID of the tube is threaded and the barrel nut is threaded on the OD with a O ring to keep it from unthreading

old school free float I think I have an old OLMPIC upper that's set up the same way
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
so you can see the ID of the tube is threaded and the barrel nut is threaded on the OD with a O ring to keep it from unthreading

old school free float I think I have an old OLMPIC upper that's set up the same way
 


Those are fine! That's the kind of system I was looking at adapting to.

Here is the first little assembly. I plan to extend the gas block out some to close that gap.


Quoted: <Some Crazy Video>
Is that the tip of the round I can see coming out of there? That's just plain crazy.
Link Posted: 12/19/2015 11:58:59 PM EDT
[#25]




















hears my carbine with similar set up they wear common in the 90s





 
Link Posted: 12/20/2015 12:06:00 AM EDT
[#26]



you'd have to cut the groves in it to look right


Link Posted: 12/20/2015 1:31:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
http://www.ftfindustries.com/product/AR-FFK-P.html


you'd have to cut the groves in it to look right


View Quote


That one is about 1" too short as well.
Link Posted: 12/20/2015 2:28:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Here is the barrel with the second version of the gas block. This one is 0.15" longer to reduce the gap between the brake and the end of the gas block. I also had it print in the roll pin hole and added a third set screw to the bottom.

Link Posted: 12/21/2015 6:04:24 PM EDT
[#29]
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=531577968

Found this
Link Posted: 12/21/2015 7:43:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=531577968

Found this
View Quote


I appreciate it, but between the replica/prop people and the retro AR people, there is no way I could purchase that in good faith. Way too many details, big and absolutely tiny, are wrong with it for me to be satisfied.
Cool find though, and I'll definitely pass it on to some friends who might be interested.

On that note, I'm finishing up the drawings for the gas block and muzzle brake. I'm unsure who to check with to get them made. I don't know if John Thomas can do a full gas block, but he is pretty much first on the list.
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 5:43:55 AM EDT
[#31]
I'm not sure how far you want to go with regards to the technical aspects of this build, but here are a couple of thoughts:

If you want to actually achieve "bullets tumbling right out of the muzzle", a smooth-bored barrel would accomplish this quite well. It would also make the weapon "difficult to hit with", accomplishing another design parameter. A smooth-bored pistol is a NFA regulated firearm, so approval by BATFE would be required prior to assembly of such a device.

Another aspect of this weapon is its distinctive sound when firing, "like a rattlesnake", and the fact that anyone who heard it firing would soon be deceased. To me, this seems to indicate a rather QUIET discharge. A standard 5.56mm round fired out of a short barrel sounds like a deafening thunderclap, which can be heard for miles. Therefore, I would think this weapon would be more accurately based around the .22 rimfire round. Maybe even with a short sound suppressor, concealed under the handguard. This would go a long way toward keeping the sound of firing more in line with the stated description in this game.

In the interest of realistic appearance, the Black Dog Manufacturing (BDM) magazines have an external profile similar to a standard 5.56mm 30 round magazine, which would help with "the look". You might be able to incorporate a shorter, 10 round BDM magazine into a gutted Korean Beta Mag knockoff, or build a fake Beta Mag around the BDM unit.

So a smooth-bored, .22 rimfire chambered pistol, possibly with a suppressor. Sounds about right.

ETA: On second thought, the smooth-bore and the suppressor are mutually exclusive items. You don't want bullets tumbling through your suppressor, tearing up its internal baffles…
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 10:23:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not sure how far you want to go with regards to the technical aspects of this build, but here are a couple of thoughts:

If you want to actually achieve "bullets tumbling right out of the muzzle", a smooth-bored barrel would accomplish this quite well. It would also make the weapon "difficult to hit with", accomplishing another design parameter. A smooth-bored pistol is a NFA regulated firearm, so approval by BATFE would be required prior to assembly of such a device.

Another aspect of this weapon is its distinctive sound when firing, "like a rattlesnake", and the fact that anyone who heard it firing would soon be deceased. To me, this seems to indicate a rather QUIET discharge. A standard 5.56mm round fired out of a short barrel sounds like a deafening thunderclap, which can be heard for miles. Therefore, I would think this weapon would be more accurately based around the .22 rimfire round. Maybe even with a short sound suppressor, concealed under the handguard. This would go a long way toward keeping the sound of firing more in line with the stated description in this game.

In the interest of realistic appearance, the Black Dog Manufacturing (BDM) magazines have an external profile similar to a standard 5.56mm 30 round magazine, which would help with "the look". You might be able to incorporate a shorter, 10 round BDM magazine into a gutted Korean Beta Mag knockoff, or build a fake Beta Mag around the BDM unit.

So a smooth-bored, .22 rimfire chambered pistol, possibly with a suppressor. Sounds about right.

ETA: On second thought, the smooth-bore and the suppressor are mutually exclusive items. You don't want bullets tumbling through your suppressor, tearing up its internal baffles…
View Quote


Ha!
Some of the fancy descriptions are just kinda silly. If I wanted to do tumbling bullets, I'd just go with a 1:14 barrel and some long rounds.
In the game, it is very loud and has a massive flash (when the player fights it / uses it, unlike the screenshot from the cut scene).
Link Posted: 12/22/2015 3:31:44 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:  ETA: On second thought, the smooth-bore and the suppressor are mutually exclusive items. You don't want bullets tumbling through your suppressor, tearing up its internal baffles…
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Au contraire!  An integrally suppressed smoothbore bbl just vents gas into the suppressor surrounding the bbl, same as the shotgun suppressors.
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 10:39:09 AM EDT
[#34]
Here is an update to the prototype assembly.
I shortened the muzzle brake 1/4", all removed from the port area, because I went back and decided the port is closer to a square shape than a rectangle.



I contacted RAW and unfortunately John said that he didn't have the tooling to do the brake and wouldn't be able to take on the gas block because he is very backed up. He provided me with some good information on the hardness values and confirmed my material choices as well. He said he'd be able to parkerize them if I had them done elsewhere, so I've got a place to get that done as I don't know if the local machine shop my company uses can do Parkerizing.

I talked with a friend and he said he'd be able to do the gas block, but said the same thing about the brake. I honestly through the gas block would be the harder part.

The handguard I have no concerns about and I know the local shop we use at work can do it, including the black anodizing. Not really all that surprised considering it is literally poring out some hollow stock to a better ID and threading the back end.

I put out a WTB for uppers and got some responses a lot faster than I expected. I've waiting for the first person to respond, but from there I think I should be good in that respect.
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 12:17:36 PM EDT
[#35]
If you can get it heat treated send me the file for the muzzle break and I'll see if I can make one.
Link Posted: 12/29/2015 1:45:01 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
If you can get it heat treated send me the file for the muzzle break and I'll see if I can make one.
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I sent you a response in a PM, but didn't save it to my outbox so I don't know if it made it to you. It was also right before the holidays. I could get heat-treated stock and ground stock so the OD itself would be where I need it to be.

Still trying to verify the required hardness, especially since this is a very short barrel. I see specs all over the place, some of which I am sure is the surface coating. I haven't been able to find a drawing for the A1 or A2 device to see what they spec. "Worst" case, I can bring in one of my spares and use the hardness testing machine (something I didn't think of until about 30 min ago).
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 1:52:54 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:

I sent you a response in a PM, but didn't save it to my outbox so I don't know if it made it to you. It was also right before the holidays. I could get heat-treated stock and ground stock so the OD itself would be where I need it to be.

Still trying to verify the required hardness, especially since this is a very short barrel. I see specs all over the place, some of which I am sure is the surface coating. I haven't been able to find a drawing for the A1 or A2 device to see what they spec. "Worst" case, I can bring in one of my spares and use the hardness testing machine (something I didn't think of until about 30 min ago).
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you can get it heat treated send me the file for the muzzle break and I'll see if I can make one.

I sent you a response in a PM, but didn't save it to my outbox so I don't know if it made it to you. It was also right before the holidays. I could get heat-treated stock and ground stock so the OD itself would be where I need it to be.

Still trying to verify the required hardness, especially since this is a very short barrel. I see specs all over the place, some of which I am sure is the surface coating. I haven't been able to find a drawing for the A1 or A2 device to see what they spec. "Worst" case, I can bring in one of my spares and use the hardness testing machine (something I didn't think of until about 30 min ago).

never got your response IM, just sent you one.

I think prehard 4140 and a nitrite coating should be fine. only concern is warping while getting nitrided.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 2:44:04 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:

never got your response IM, just sent you one.

I think prehard 4140 and a nitrite coating should be fine. only concern is warping while getting nitrided.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you can get it heat treated send me the file for the muzzle break and I'll see if I can make one.

I sent you a response in a PM, but didn't save it to my outbox so I don't know if it made it to you. It was also right before the holidays. I could get heat-treated stock and ground stock so the OD itself would be where I need it to be.

Still trying to verify the required hardness, especially since this is a very short barrel. I see specs all over the place, some of which I am sure is the surface coating. I haven't been able to find a drawing for the A1 or A2 device to see what they spec. "Worst" case, I can bring in one of my spares and use the hardness testing machine (something I didn't think of until about 30 min ago).

never got your response IM, just sent you one.

I think prehard 4140 and a nitrite coating should be fine. only concern is warping while getting nitrided.


I got and returned your IM. My concern with nitride is color compared to parkerized (thankfully, being on the Retro forum, people won't think I am crazy for saying that). I don't know what the process takes or if warping would be an issue.
Link Posted: 1/6/2016 12:55:21 PM EDT
[#39]
I got an upper last week and it arrived on Monday exactly as described: finish wear on the outside, dust cover rusty, but nearly flawless inside.
Now this is going to sound incredibly silly to some of you, but I'm considering getting an NDS upper because I feel the finish wear will stand out against all the other pats, which will be newly made (I placed the upper on my current NDS lower and it does). If this were a different build I probably wouldn't care (especially since the inside of the receiver really is flawless), but since aesthetics are a big part of this build, I'm wondering what to do. I don't want to refinish it because I don't like monkeying with original parts. All I did was go over it with some CLP, a cloth, a nylon brush, and soaked the port door in CLP.

I'm also still waiting to hear back on pricing to make the muzzle brake from a few other sources and my friend said his shop can most likely do the brake when he gets back from vacation.

The next step is ordering the small lower parts. I don't really care about all-Colt or not, but finding the parts in XM Grey still seems to be a bit of a question. I don't know how well the Navel Jelly thing works on things like bolt catches and magazine buttons and I'd still need a no-tick selector. AR15Sport has started offering several of these parts in XM Grey including the mag button and trigger guard, and they recently added no-tick selectors. I'd still have to figure out what to do for the pins, bolt release, and the other part of the magazine assembly though, so I'm not sure if it is worth it. I'll probably reach out to some people on the forums and potentially Indiana Surplus.

Details. Details everywhere.
Link Posted: 1/6/2016 2:54:06 PM EDT
[#40]

we'v ben parking our own the lower parts started out as cheep black Friday kits that wear coated black












Link Posted: 1/6/2016 5:52:46 PM EDT
[#41]
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Quoted:
we'v ben parking our own the lower parts started out as cheep black Friday kits that wear coated black
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Yeah, I considered that, but your post also mentions bead blasting, which is something I don't have the ability to do. Also, as an apartment dweller, I don't really know if I'd be able to do some of the steps at home. I have to visit my parents to install any barrels or muzzle devices.
Link Posted: 1/17/2016 9:34:55 PM EDT
[#42]
Got the upper in yesterday.

Technically the second upper. I bought a Colt but later decided that it was a bit more worn on the outside than I wanted. While looking for others, someone was in the reverse predicament: they had two new NDS uppers, but decided they wanted to go all-Colt for their reenactment rifle. So we traded.
Link Posted: 2/25/2016 1:27:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Got in contact with Model 1 Sales. They are willing to sell me the barrel nut for their free float handguards. I'm curious who makes it and where it is made. If it is just a rebranded one, I don't see why I shouldn't just get the generic one from Amazon for the same price that is a whole handguard for a bit less. Installation is going to need a batter armorer's tool; I've read that the aluminum ones are more safely installed when you use a wrench with more than just three pins so I am looking at the Brownell's tool.

I also snagged a pistol receiver extension that fit the "no castle nut" requirement and carbine buffer/spring from EE for a great deal. Needs some grey paint to match the NDS receivers but that was expected.

Other than that, not much progress but that will hopefully change. My ultimate goal is to have all the other parts ready to go for the glorious day when the NDS-16A1 lower arrives.

Link Posted: 2/27/2016 7:25:46 PM EDT
[#44]
Interesting project, OP. One thing in looking at the original drawing struck me; I just recently traded into a FerFrans S.O.A.R.-P 7.5" pistol upper (well, it's on my Spike's Crusader pistol lower, anyway so it is being used as a pistol upper) that was originally designed with a rate reducer built in for use a machine gun, along with the heavy 1/7 twist barrel and gas piston system. And honestly, if you had it parked in a retro upper rather than the flat top it came with (and a free float tube instead of the Samson pistol quad rail) then the gas block setup is pretty similar, except for the rail on top and the adjuster on the front. Even the flash hider reminds me of your drawing except this one has 3 slots instead of 1 on each side.

Point is, have you considered going with/looking at a gas PISTON system rather than a short DI version? Or perhaps, were the animators on the game thinking of a retro version of one of these maybe, since they are/were being used by the Philippines military as I understand it? Not nearly as much information on these FerFrans that I could find out there as I would like. But it does kind of look like a retro version of the same AR pistol I have. Sorta. (I know, I know- seems to be a LOT of "sortas" in this project so far) And the description of the "snake rattle" rate of fire would kind of match up with the effect of the rate reducer on this FerFrans unit, were it to be mounted up on a registered F/A receiver. Anyway, one more angle for you to look into.
Link Posted: 2/29/2016 11:26:34 AM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:

Point is, have you considered going with/looking at a gas PISTON system rather than a short DI version?
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Not really. I don't think the handguard would fit it and I don't even think a piston system is possible in an A1 upper.
As for the other stuff you mentioned, I have no idea what most of that is or if it was even around when the game was released in 2004.
Link Posted: 2/29/2016 11:56:03 AM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:  Not really. I don't think the handguard would fit it and I don't even think a piston system is possible in an A1 upper.
As for the other stuff you mentioned, I have no idea what most of that is or if it was even around when the game was released in 2004.
View Quote


Er, there's 4 or 5 drop-in piston systems on the market, they should drop into an A1 upper just fine.
Link Posted: 2/29/2016 4:56:10 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:


Er, there's 4 or 5 drop-in piston systems on the market, they should drop into an A1 upper just fine.
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Quoted:
Quoted:  Not really. I don't think the handguard would fit it and I don't even think a piston system is possible in an A1 upper.
As for the other stuff you mentioned, I have no idea what most of that is or if it was even around when the game was released in 2004.


Er, there's 4 or 5 drop-in piston systems on the market, they should drop into an A1 upper just fine.


That's pretty interesting actually. I'll be honest I haven't paid much attention to piston systems for AR's; if I want a gas pistol I'd get a different rifle.
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 10:46:58 AM EDT
[#48]
Got back from a convention this weekend where I was using some other stuff related to this video game / build and had some good news waiting for me when I got home.
The flash hider and gas block are machined and should be parkerized this week.

All that is left from here is determining the final length of the handguards, getting the barrel nut (debating the Model 1 Sales option or grabbing an Amazon free-float and using that), and getting the handguard made one I finish the drawings. Then just small parts I am missing for the lower and upper.

Oh, and waiting for the lower.

My demented retro abomination is coming along nicely!
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:47:31 PM EDT
[#49]
Still working on this and have the gas block in hand. Some unexpected set-back have occurred but they are being resolved.

I've shown this to another fan of the video game and she absolutely loved it. The problem now is if she wants one, real or non-functioning prop!
Link Posted: 5/26/2016 11:04:32 AM EDT
[#50]
So not much of an update, but a few weeks back I got a really nice rear sight assembly that I put on this build. Since there won't be a front sight, it will be partially for show, but at least now I know how to install them.



My lower should be ready sometime in June with the current five-month wait time from NDS, so all that will be left is to get the barrel issue resolved, finish the design for the handguard (which I want to use the barrel and gas block to finalize the dimensions), and then the fire control group.

If my welder friend can help, I'll try to see if I can get the belt clip made and welded to a receiver end plate.
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