Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » AR-15 / M-16 Retro Forum
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 12/3/2013 8:52:11 PM EDT
i've been collecting parts for a while and sometimes you find something interesting but you know you may never be able to complete a build around that part.  then sometimes lightning strikes twice and you get 2 rare parts for a build and you feel compelled to do something with them.

so that's how i got into this dilemma.  picked up a colt A2 upper w/ the rear window, looks original but it has been refinished black.  then this prototype barrel came up in the EE and i figured it was a sign that this build was meant to be.

i couldn't find a lot of information on this so i wanted to throw it out here to see how this build should go.

from what i could find out about the m16a1e1, it seems like a few different uppers were used.  

some were A2 w/ the rear window with a more milled looking brass deflector:


others didn't have a brass deflector but had one glued on:


note the early rapidex looking sight wheel.

pics from this thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_127/529554_Where_it_all_began__the_M16A1E1.html

my upper looks like a later A2 forging with the C M marks and a standard looking brunton bump.  i will use shiny round handguards on it.  will run a grey delta ring too.

so here are the questions.

1. m16a1 or a2 lower? - were a2 lowers used?
2. a1 ejection port cover or a2?
3. type e stock or a2 stock?
4. teardrop, large round or standard forward assist?
5. standard a2 windage wheel or early one?

i think the barrel may be a bit early for this upper.  what say the retro hive:

pics of my parts:




Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:01:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
some were A2 w/ the rear window with a more milled looking forward assist:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/early_a2_c.jpg

others didn't have a forward assist but had one glued on:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/wizzokx/100_0144a.jpg
View Quote

I think you mean case deflector not forward assist.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:08:26 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I think you mean case deflector not forward assist.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
some were A2 w/ the rear window with a more milled looking forward assist:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/early_a2_c.jpg

others didn't have a forward assist but had one glued on:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/wizzokx/100_0144a.jpg

I think you mean case deflector not forward assist.


thanks, fixed.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:23:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Are you sure the upper you got is an authentic prototype part?

It strikes me that it wouldn't be too hard of a modification to do, which would explain the refinish as well as the fairly late upper.  

IMHO, if I were wanting to build as close to the M16A1E1 as I could, I would get an RRA 9MM A2 upper and send it to one of our lovely Retro Forum "in house" machinists to get the gas tube clover leaf drilled, as well as the rear sight hole.  

Then I would build the case deflector out of what it was made of - as far as I can tell, the pictured one is not milled, but Bondo, on the upper without the case deflector you can see the outline of where the bump was removed and/or fell off.  

I'd use the prototype barrel you've got.

Per Lt. Col. Lutz when the A2 came up, he "designed" the modern A2 windage knob by chucking the picture knob in a drill and knocking off the corners - I'm not sure what the best solution would be, but just some trivia...

I'd probably just go with a Rapidex, but I suppose you could try to "build up" the corners of a standard knob, or once again, have a custom part made based on the A2 knob.  

I'd stick with the barrel you've got, and otherwise build what you've got pictured - A1 lower, A1 ejection port cover, and teardrop forward assist, or possibly a "full" big button if you can find one.  

I'd also look into the thread with Lt. Col. Lutz that I talked about, and take a look at his description of the prototype A2 grips and try to make one of those.  

I'd also do the Type E stock and A2 buttplate.

Just make sure you use a peel washer to time the A2 comp.  

ETA:  The very Retro-ish A2 thread for those who have not seen it:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/626884_Why_did_the_military_go_from_the_A1_pistol_grip_to_the_A2_pistol_grip_.html&page=1

Colt "memento" for Lt. Col. Lutz:




~Augee
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:29:38 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'd stick with the barrel you've got
View Quote

I thought the prototypes of that vintage had the heavier barrel (under the handguards) profile?  The A2 profile was later in the process.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:34:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Are you sure the upper you got is an authentic prototype part?

It strikes me that it wouldn't be too hard of a modification to do, which would explain the refinish as well as the fairly late upper.  

no provenance on it.  it wouldn't be too hard to do but not many people have done it either.  any members here own a confirmed original?

IMHO, if I were wanting to build as close to the M16A1E1 as I could, I would get an RRA 9MM A2 upper and send it to one of our lovely Retro Forum "in house" machinists to get the gas tube clover leaf drilled, as well as the rear sight hole.  

Then I would build the case deflector out of what it was made of - as far as I can tell, the pictured one is not milled, but Bondo, on the upper without the case deflector you can see the outline of where the bump was removed and/or fell off.  

if you look at the pic of the one that isn't glued on, the brass deflector angles up into the carry handle channel.  

I'd use the prototype barrel you've got.

Per Lt. Col. Lutz when the A2 came up, he "designed" the modern A2 windage knob by chucking the picture knob in a drill and knocking off the corners - I'm not sure what the best solution would be, but just some trivia...

I'd probably just go with a Rapidex, but I suppose you could try to "build up" the corners of a standard knob, or once again, have a custom part made based on the A2 knob.  

will a rapidex fit an a2 rear sight?

I'd stick with the barrel you've got, and otherwise build what you've got pictured - A1 lower, A1 ejection port cover, and teardrop forward assist, or possibly a "full" big button if you can find one.  

I'd also look into the thread with Lt. Col. Lutz that I talked about, and take a look at his prototype A2 grips and try to make one of those.  

I'd also do the Type E stock and A2 buttplate.

Just make sure you use a peel washer to time the A2 comp.  

thanks for your input.

~Augee
View Quote


this thread right?  http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/626884_Why_did_the_military_go_from_the_A1_pistol_grip_to_the_A2_pistol_grip_.html&page=1
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:34:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I thought the prototypes of that vintage had the heavier barrel (under the handguards) profile?  The A2 profile was later in the process.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd stick with the barrel you've got

I thought the prototypes of that vintage had the heavier barrel (under the handguards) profile?  The A2 profile was later in the process.


I believe you're correct - however, I'd find that Colt prototype barrel too hard to resist - given that it's a clone, the visible part will be the unique prototype barrel marking - even if you used a more recent production Colt HBAR it would have modern markings, not prototype markings.  

It's a compromise decision, but unless he's able to find a correctly profiled prototype barrel, I'd use that one if only just for the markings.

~Augee
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:35:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I thought the prototypes of that vintage had the heavier barrel (under the handguards) profile?  The A2 profile was later in the process.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd stick with the barrel you've got

I thought the prototypes of that vintage had the heavier barrel (under the handguards) profile?  The A2 profile was later in the process.


this one has the A2 profile but doesn't have the twist rate stamped like a normal A2.  it was almost put on as an afterthought.  also the profiling behind the FSB looks different.
Link Posted: 12/3/2013 9:45:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Not much new, but below are some photos I took at Rock Island a few weeks ago. Unrelated to your questions, but of interest, the camouflage rifle in the bottom had the DoD acceptance stamp (white paint) on the front of the mag well.  That really surprised me.  I figured the paint job came later.

Based on the photos, guns 855, 856, & 857 are M16A1E1s, so to answer your questions:

-A1 receiver
-A1 ejection port cover (gun #858 has a really beefy looking A2 door, but it is a M16A1E2)
-Stock looks like a type E
-Teardrop forward assist (gun #858 has the round forward assist... again, it's not a M16A1E1)
-Early windage wheel (#858, the M16A1E2, has the newer style windage wheel)l


John Thomas








Link Posted: 12/4/2013 3:32:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Let me know if you need a peel washer because I can drop one in the mail (I bought a package of them years ago and there's no sense buying a bunch for one build)
Link Posted: 12/4/2013 7:18:03 AM EDT
[#10]
IIRC those are later M16A1E1's, close to the final A2 design. The first ones were A1 uppers with A2 furniture and A1 profile 1:7 barrel. (Model 711?) These were used in the interim while the A2 upper was finalized. Very nice upper btw boywonder! Very cool stuff. I asked a member here known for his machining skills about doing such a rear window, and he didn't see a problem. Not sure how I'd figure out how to set a Santos BSZ with it, but I'm sure it could be done. Looking forward to reading more as your project progresses.
Link Posted: 12/5/2013 7:56:35 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not much new, but below are some photos I took at Rock Island a few weeks ago. Unrelated to your questions, but of interest, the camouflage rifle in the bottom had the DoD acceptance stamp (white paint) on the front of the mag well.  That really surprised me.  I figured the paint job came later.

Based on the photos, guns 855, 856, & 857 are M16A1E1s, so to answer your questions:

-A1 receiver
-A1 ejection port cover (gun #858 has a really beefy looking A2 door, but it is a M16A1E2)
-Stock looks like a type E
-Teardrop forward assist (gun #858 has the round forward assist... again, it's not a M16A1E1)
-Early windage wheel (#858, the M16A1E2, has the newer style windage wheel)l


John Thomas

<a href="http://s61.photobucket.com/user/jntmjt1/media/RIA%201/P1370353_zps64be5861.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h53/jntmjt1/RIA%201/P1370353_zps64be5861.jpg</a>

View Quote



First let me say to John T., outstanding photos.  You have inspired me to build an M16A1E2 clone using parts that I have lying around.  My question to the hive is where can I find a large button forward assist to complete an M16A1E2 rifle?

Page AR-15 » AR-15 / M-16 Retro Forum
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top