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ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:08:03 PM
I know this issue has been addressed before, but I was unable (after much searching) to ever find a definitive answer. To begin, I am fully aware of all NFA laws, so please don't go quoting the NFA or BATF rules/regulations...I have read all of it and am aware of all legalities concerning FA weapons. On to my question: If you were to install M16 fire control group parts into a standard AR15 rifle...I'm referring to ALL the M16 FCG parts EXCEPT for the standard M16 auto sear...if, after installing these parts, I switch the fire control switch to the full auto position, can the weapon possibly discharge more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, despite the auto sear NOT being installed? It is my understanding that the M16 select switch, when switched to the full auto position, removes the disconnect from the trigger, but without the auto sear to regulate the hammer, a dangerously unreliable slam fire would be the result. Can anyone give an educated opinion on just what exactly will be the result of having all M16 parts in an AR15 lower without an auto sear of any kind? Thanks.
jaqufrost
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:14:35 PM
Slam fire is unlikely, the hammer will follow the carrier down and result in a light strike.
fastswift
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:19:20 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2013 4:20:08 PM by fastswift]
never mind
ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:21:04 PM
The reason I ask is because I am planning on puchasing a RDIAS, and I am aware that it requires all M16 internals for it to function properly. However, I want to make sure that when the RDIAS is out of the gun, a slam fire will not occur if the selector is set to full auto. I read about some poor schmo in Wisconsin a few years back that had M16 internals in an AR15 without an auto sear, and the ATF was able to get the gun to fire off more than one round with a single trigger pull. Needless to say, it was enough to lock the guy up for a few years. I would like to avoid that.
NAM
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:23:18 PM
Typically, when you remove the RDIAS, you remove the M16 parts. M16 FCG is unlawful in a semi, so if the RDIAS is not present, legally speaking, the M16 FCG should not be present. End of story.
Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
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boywonder777
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:27:32 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By NAM:
Typically, when you remove the RDIAS, you remove the M16 parts. M16 FCG is unlawful in a semi, so if the RDIAS is not present, legally speaking, the M16 FCG should not be present. End of story.


+1, with the cost of a RDIAS, it's not worth the risk on something you can swap out with a punch and a screwdriver. or better yet, spend the $100-$150 and get a dedicated host for the DIAS.
ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:29:43 PM
From everything I've read, having M16 FCG parts installed does not constitute a violation of the NFA, so long as neither the auto sear pin hole isn't drilled, nor the auto sear itself present in the gun. The ATF wrote a letter some years back in which they recommended against installing M16 FCG parts in an AR15, but that it in fact is not illegal. So long as the infamous "third hole" isn't drilled into your lower, then you are not in breach of the law. If, however, my gun slam fires, regardless of the existence of a third hole, without an RDIAS, then it is most definitely illegal...and I want to make sure that it will not happen.
ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:30:55 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By boywonder777:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Typically, when you remove the RDIAS, you remove the M16 parts. M16 FCG is unlawful in a semi, so if the RDIAS is not present, legally speaking, the M16 FCG should not be present. End of story.


+1, with the cost of a RDIAS, it's not worth the risk on something you can swap out with a punch and a screwdriver. or better yet, spend the $100-$150 and get a dedicated host for the DIAS.



Can you elaborate on this please? What exactly is a "dedicated host" for a RDIAS?
boywonder777
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:33:45 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Typically, when you remove the RDIAS, you remove the M16 parts. M16 FCG is unlawful in a semi, so if the RDIAS is not present, legally speaking, the M16 FCG should not be present. End of story.


+1, with the cost of a RDIAS, it's not worth the risk on something you can swap out with a punch and a screwdriver. or better yet, spend the $100-$150 and get a dedicated host for the DIAS.



Can you elaborate on this please? What exactly is a "dedicated host" for a RDIAS?


by dedicated host, i mean just buy another lower with the low shelf that you can keep the RDIAS and your F/A parts in. Just swap uppers around vs swapping the RDIAS btw different lowers.
ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:36:22 PM
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?
NAM
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:38:30 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2013 4:39:19 PM by NAM]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?


If the ATF can "readily convert" it to fire more than one shot, ONE SINGLE TIME, it's a machinegun. So, they take your rifle, tinker with it, use special ammo, etc, and it slamfires or fires more than once per operation of the trigger EVEN ONCE..... you now have a machinegun.

Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp"
tbk1: "We don't allow generalized bashing, except against the French."
CoC #11: Some animals are more equal than others.
Stoner25mkiv
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:41:40 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2013 4:45:44 PM by Stoner25mkiv]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?

I'm thinking you want a deffinitive(sp) answer to the slam fire with new parts question and I believe that NO ONE can say positively that it won't slam fire with new parts. And assuming it won't slam fire with brand new parts.........then what?........how many rounds fired until those brand new parts aren't brand new and it MIGHT slam fire with the now not brand new parts. Not taking anything away from the knowledgable individuals here in "retro", I would suggest you drop in the "Armory" section, General Class 3 section, and pose the question to TonyK
ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:42:17 PM
Thanks for the info.
jaqufrost
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:45:31 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?


If the ATF can "readily convert" it to fire more than one shot, ONE SINGLE TIME, it's a machinegun. So, they take your rifle, tinker with it, use special ammo, etc, and it slamfires or fires more than once per operation of the trigger EVEN ONCE..... you now have a machinegun.

Pretty much every AR in existence can be made to do this. Combine the free floating firing pen with some extremely sensitive primers and I'm pretty sure the ATF can make any AR15 a machine gun.
Stoner25mkiv
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Posted: 7/30/2013 4:48:17 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?


If the ATF can "readily convert" it to fire more than one shot, ONE SINGLE TIME, it's a machinegun. So, they take your rifle, tinker with it, use special ammo, etc, and it slamfires or fires more than once per operation of the trigger EVEN ONCE..... you now have a machinegun.

Pretty much every AR in existence can be made to do this. Combine the free floating firing pen with some extremely sensitive primers and I'm pretty sure the ATF can make any AR15 a machine gun.

THIS is probably true............that's why you don't go looking for trouble with the ATF. And on the subject of floating firing pins and sensitive primers, ask most anyone that shoots Highpower with an AR how Federal Gold Metal MAtch primers behave.
dedzeppo
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Posted: 7/30/2013 5:12:52 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ballacaust:
From everything I've read, having M16 FCG parts installed does not constitute a violation of the NFA, so long as neither the auto sear pin hole isn't drilled, nor the auto sear itself present in the gun. The ATF wrote a letter some years back in which they recommended against installing M16 FCG parts in an AR15, but that it in fact is not illegal. So long as the infamous "third hole" isn't drilled into your lower, then you are not in breach of the law. If, however, my gun slam fires, regardless of the existence of a third hole, without an RDIAS, then it is most definitely illegal...and I want to make sure that it will not happen.


It is quite illegal to use M16 fire control parts if not De-Mil'ed to specs set forth by the ATF. Any two of the six could result in a twenty year sentence.

And guys, before we go on about this, I smell a rat.

I am relatively new around here, but questions about the possibility of making a standard AR15 fire more than one round with a pull of the trigger pop up daily, in other ARFCOM forums, by users who signed up that day with no previous post count.

The retro forum is full of people who want to be helpful, but what does this have to do with retro?

Other ARFCOM forums aren't so nice to new users asking first questions like this.




Instructor25
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Posted: 7/30/2013 5:34:00 PM
Honestly I'm not sure you understand what a slam fire really is. There are several variations of a "slam fire". That being said. Once you flip it to auto the disconnector is moved out of the way. If anything it's only gonna fire Once when you pull the trigger. Now the only thing I can see as a slam fire would be an unintentional double fire due to a worn disconnetor. However now we are getting technical here. It says more than one round being fired with a single trigger pull.

Besides your best best is to do what boywonder said. Get a dedicated low shelf lower with auto parts. Something like a pof, etc

Most newer AR's won't be able to support a RDIAS or a complete FA FCG
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Der_Hans
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Posted: 7/30/2013 5:45:54 PM
I'm going to make the same suggestion as Boywonder, and recommend that you go ahead and get a dedicated host lower for your RDIAS. If you leave the M16 FCG in, you run too much risk of being technically illegal even though it's semi auto only. If you constantly swap parts in and out, it's a pain in the butt.

If you can afford an RDIAS and the ammunition to feed it, you can afford to buy a lower to put the RDIAS in.


[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?


If the ATF can "readily convert" it to fire more than one shot, ONE SINGLE TIME, it's a machinegun. So, they take your rifle, tinker with it, use special ammo, etc, and it slamfires or fires more than once per operation of the trigger EVEN ONCE..... you now have a machinegun.



At this time I wish to point out that the ATF is pretty much a government sponsored criminal organization, given the job of putting as many American gun owners as they possibly can in jail, by any means necessary.

To the ATF, "readily convert" means that they can do whatever they want to do in order to get your gun to go off more than once. This might include them drilling new holes in your lower to add extra parts, purchasing new parts, manufacturing ammunition with dangerous out of spec primers to induce slam-fires, or welding your firing pin in place to make the gun slam fire when you close the bolt. There was one case where the ATF replaced everything with the exception of the lower receiver, the butt stock assembly, and pistol grip, and still claimed that the gun had been "readily convertible".

Your best bet is to follow the letter of the law exactly, or else they will be allowed to break the law in order to put you in jail.
Der_Hans
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Posted: 7/30/2013 5:59:40 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?


If the ATF can "readily convert" it to fire more than one shot, ONE SINGLE TIME, it's a machinegun. So, they take your rifle, tinker with it, use special ammo, etc, and it slamfires or fires more than once per operation of the trigger EVEN ONCE..... you now have a machinegun.

Pretty much every AR in existence can be made to do this. Combine the free floating firing pen with some extremely sensitive primers and I'm pretty sure the ATF can make any AR15 a machine gun.


The ATF has done exactly that in the past.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EGy5lpy9GY&feature=related

The TLDR version:

David Olofson loaned his old as hell Olympic Arms AR-15 to a friend.
The selector may or may not have traveled to the third position, however, there are semi-auto ONLY selectors that do this for cosmetic reasons.
The AR suffered from a condition that caused it to occasionally fire more than one round at a time, and then jam. (Hammer follow)
Police got involved, and they called the ATF.

The owner claimed this was a known problem with older ARs, and was not a crime.
The ATF tested the weapon, and agreed that it was not a crime.

The field agent requested that they repeat the testing, with specially selected ammunition known to be very sensitive and prone to slam-fires.
They got the gun to slam fire.
Olofson went to prison.
ballacaust
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Posted: 7/30/2013 6:17:31 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By dedzeppo:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
From everything I've read, having M16 FCG parts installed does not constitute a violation of the NFA, so long as neither the auto sear pin hole isn't drilled, nor the auto sear itself present in the gun. The ATF wrote a letter some years back in which they recommended against installing M16 FCG parts in an AR15, but that it in fact is not illegal. So long as the infamous "third hole" isn't drilled into your lower, then you are not in breach of the law. If, however, my gun slam fires, regardless of the existence of a third hole, without an RDIAS, then it is most definitely illegal...and I want to make sure that it will not happen.


It is quite illegal to use M16 fire control parts if not De-Mil'ed to specs set forth by the ATF. Any two of the six could result in a twenty year sentence.

And guys, before we go on about this, I smell a rat.

I am relatively new around here, but questions about the possibility of making a standard AR15 fire more than one round with a pull of the trigger pop up daily, in other ARFCOM forums, by users who signed up that day with no previous post count.

The retro forum is full of people who want to be helpful, but what does this have to do with retro?

Other ARFCOM forums aren't so nice to new users asking first questions like this.






I am not a rat, if that is indeed what you are implying. I am simply a guy who is very interested in this topic and wish to educate myself enough to fully understand the inner workings of AR15's, both semi and FA...the lightning link/DIAS was something I didn't fully understand until reading a lot about them. I believe the closing of the registry in 1986 was a total crock, especially considering only 2 crimes have been committed since the registry first opened (1936?) which involved the use of full auto weapons. If I posted my original question in the wrong forum then I do apologize, as I am new here.
dedzeppo
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Posted: 7/30/2013 6:49:53 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Originally Posted By dedzeppo:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
From everything I've read, having M16 FCG parts installed does not constitute a violation of the NFA, so long as neither the auto sear pin hole isn't drilled, nor the auto sear itself present in the gun. The ATF wrote a letter some years back in which they recommended against installing M16 FCG parts in an AR15, but that it in fact is not illegal. So long as the infamous "third hole" isn't drilled into your lower, then you are not in breach of the law. If, however, my gun slam fires, regardless of the existence of a third hole, without an RDIAS, then it is most definitely illegal...and I want to make sure that it will not happen.


It is quite illegal to use M16 fire control parts if not De-Mil'ed to specs set forth by the ATF. Any two of the six could result in a twenty year sentence.

And guys, before we go on about this, I smell a rat.

I am relatively new around here, but questions about the possibility of making a standard AR15 fire more than one round with a pull of the trigger pop up daily, in other ARFCOM forums, by users who signed up that day with no previous post count.

The retro forum is full of people who want to be helpful, but what does this have to do with retro?

Other ARFCOM forums aren't so nice to new users asking first questions like this.






I am not a rat, if that is indeed what you are implying. I am simply a guy who is very interested in this topic and wish to educate myself enough to fully understand the inner workings of AR15's, both semi and FA...the lightning link/DIAS was something I didn't fully understand until reading a lot about them. I believe the closing of the registry in 1986 was a total crock, especially considering only 2 crimes have been committed since the registry first opened (1936?) which involved the use of full auto weapons. If I posted my original question in the wrong forum then I do apologize, as I am new here.


Well at least you're from Texas; That's a plus in my book. If you are genuine, and you know and follow the laws, et cetera, then there is a wealth of knowledge and advice here. Some guys on some of the other ARCOM forums would persecute you for the questions you asked with July '13 join date and no previous posts.

And if you are on the other side, you may as well look elsewhere, you likely won't find anything useful here.
Morg308
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Posted: 7/30/2013 8:00:33 PM
Quarterbore has a very good page on the RDIAS. I understood it did NOT require M16 parts, but I may have to revisit that page. I don' t remember if it's the RDIAS or the Lightning Link which requires an SP1 type carrier however. Visit his site and read - good info for someone considering such an expensive purchase. I for one would not be caught with M16 FCG parts in a semi-only rifle. BCG is another matter, and has been shown to be legal t use - I mean, Colt themselves ship FA BCGs in their rifles. FCGs are a different proposition. If they can prove intent, you have a problem.
Remember the Yarnell 19
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Posted: 7/30/2013 8:01:28 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ballacaust:
SNIP


I am not a rat, if that is indeed what you are implying. I am simply a guy who is very interested in this topic and wish to educate myself enough to fully understand the inner workings of AR15's, both semi and FA...the lightning link/DIAS was something I didn't fully understand until reading a lot about them. I believe the closing of the registry in 1986 was a total crock, especially considering only 2 crimes have been committed since the registry first opened (1936?) which involved the use of full auto weapons. If I posted my original question in the wrong forum then I do apologize, as I am new here.
The total crock was the institution of the NFA in 1934. Shall not be infringed doesn't have an exception for taxes, background checks or weapons that some people find icky.
jaqufrost
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Posted: 7/30/2013 8:03:56 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Morg308:
Quarterbore has a very good page on the RDIAS. I understood it did NOT require M16 parts, but I may have to revisit that page. I don' t remember if it's the RDIAS or the Lightning Link which requires an SP1 type carrier however. Visit his site and read - good info for someone considering such an expensive purchase. I for one would not be caught with M16 FCG parts in a semi-only rifle. BCG is another matter, and has been shown to be legal t use - I mean, Colt themselves ship FA BCGs in their rifles. FCGs are a different proposition. If they can prove intent, you have a problem.
The normal RDIAS requires M16 FCG and M16 bolt carrier. A lightning link requires a semi auto fcg and an sp1 carrier. If conversion kits were legal for manufacture I would build an RDIAS that used a standard fcg and cammed the disconnector down releasing the hammer.
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Posted: 7/30/2013 9:44:31 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
Ah I see now, thanks. But just to clarify, so long as M16 FCG parts are new and installed properly, slam firing will not occur without the RDIAS in place?


If the ATF can "readily convert" it to fire more than one shot, ONE SINGLE TIME, it's a machinegun. So, they take your rifle, tinker with it, use special ammo, etc, and it slamfires or fires more than once per operation of the trigger EVEN ONCE..... you now have a machinegun.



And, a federal felony charge.

Presumably that sort of thing does not sound attractive......
"There it is"

DR #2136
Der_Hans
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Posted: 7/30/2013 11:20:09 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By jaqufrost:
Originally Posted By ballacaust:
SNIP


I am not a rat, if that is indeed what you are implying. I am simply a guy who is very interested in this topic and wish to educate myself enough to fully understand the inner workings of AR15's, both semi and FA...the lightning link/DIAS was something I didn't fully understand until reading a lot about them. I believe the closing of the registry in 1986 was a total crock, especially considering only 2 crimes have been committed since the registry first opened (1936?) which involved the use of full auto weapons. If I posted my original question in the wrong forum then I do apologize, as I am new here.
The total crock was the institution of the NFA in 1934. Shall not be infringed doesn't have an exception for taxes, background checks or weapons that some people find icky.


This bears repeating.
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