Based upon some discussions in another post, I thought it would be good to bring this subject back to life and see if there is any new information/findings pertaining to this matter.

I originally posted this question in April 2010 trying to determine if my complete upper assembly was a GM or H&R.  There was some excellent information/opinions provided by numerous people and especially by "willp".  Please read through my original archived post and  add any additional new information.

GM or H&R upper assembly

I will be posting some additional pictures of my upper assembly (primarily the left side of the upper) for this discussion.


This in my opinion, is the most detailed summary that was provided by "willp" in the aforementioned original post....

"I'm in the middle of research on GM/H&R rifles & in the middle of builds of each, based on info I've received & observed uppers w/flash F&R or F or R are definitely H&R, I'm beginning to doubt that GM uppers had flash, they're smooth like Colt's but have no proofs in front of the door, that's based on info I've gotten so far from armorers & observation of only 2 rifles, doesn't mean GM didn't leave flash but all the H&R's (existing rifles) that I've gotten info on have flash, most F&R, a couple just on rear, the GM's have been smooth as described above. Both H&R & GM appear to have used the same markings on the barrel Colt used in 67-68, MP w/C (indicating chrome chamber NOT Colt mfg) near the muzzle, Colt did NOT mark their parts w/Colt mfg identifiers until H&R & GM were awarded their contracts, probably around 69, that's when Colt switched their chrome chamber barrel markings to the area between the F sight & the muzzle C MP C (C Colt mfg, MP was a proof mk, C chrome chamber) while H&R/GM continued using the old MP between sight base legs w/C near chamber, a small number of H&R barrels have the MP upside down on the left side between the sight legs but most seem to be on the right in the "normal" position. The barrels that have been observed that are attributable to original config H&R rifles sometimes have a casting mark on the lug (like in your pic) & the sight base markings are different from Colt sight bases (the markings), the H&R/possible GM's have a number cast sideways into the base sometimes on both sides (but this is NOT a definite rule), I have an MP C marked barrel like yours w/the code on the lug & there's flash left on the bottom & back of the lug  unlike any Colt's I have from that period. It's also possible that H&R & GM obtained either barrels &/or front sight bases from subcontractors, possibly the same contractors, if this is true it may be difficult if not impossible to id barrels between Colt & GM w/the exception of the ones marked on the left as described above which so far appear to be only H&R.
Based on the info I've seen & collected so far I'd id your upper/barrel as an H&R, it's possible it could be a GM but evidence appears to pointing against it."

I have some info and some pics to contribute. However I have to head out to some family stuff. I will be back on this topic this evening.

Anyone who has a suspected GM or H&R upper and/or barrel, please if you could share some info/history/pics of your parts, it would be most helpful. I, like many others, would like to get some concrete comparisons on known original examples and those that are suspect.

Thank you for bringing this up ar15guy, I was going to but you beat me to it.

+1, let's see if we can get it stickied or added to RBR.  it's an area where a lot of new info have been uncovered as of late.  like the cross/plus marked furniture and forging flaws on the uppers.

i have 2 or 3 examples of engraved sight arrow markings so it looks like if the casting wasn't good, they would just stand it off and stamp it.

also divoted parts have turned up recently on them as well.

Excellent idea "boywonder777", to get this discussion, pictures, etc. stickied in this retro area.  I'm presuming there will be a wealth of historical, new & different information/findings provided in this discussion post.

Not sure if everyone can view archived posts.  Therefore, decided to repost the pics from my original post.



















I'll take some additional detail photos & post later.

Fellow retro members,

I've had several suggestions to possibly "tack" this discussion on the GM or H&R question.  To that end, feel free to post your findings, pictures, etc. about this subject.

Let's try to keep this to the best known factual information possible

I'm sure if we're able to compile some quality information on this subject, we could create a very nice summary of information that can be requested to be "tacked" in our retro section for future reference.

Thanks to all,
Larry (ar15guy)

One thing I don't have a picture of is a comparison of a colt dust cover vs. a GM dust cover.  As I had pointed out earlier it seems the colt doors have sharp corners while the GM doors have "dull" corners.

Forging Flaw (one of many):


Rear forging flash:



Number stamped on the forward assist:


Side view:

First, ar15guy, feel free to C&P any info and pics I post into the OP for sticky purposes, if we can do that.

Also, I have a lot of pics so I will be editing this post throughout the day.

I will start with my original GM barreled upper. I purchased this upper from Andy at East County Guns, and it came with the rifle's original furniture and sling. Andy had received an upgrade contract from a local LE department, and they had received some bone stock M16A1's from Uncle Sam. They had the receivers built into modern patrol rifles, and ECG sold off the original parts kits. Andy had converted 3 GM Hydramatic M16A1's, and the rest were Colts. I specifically asked if there were any H&R's in the group, and he said only Colt and GM, no H&R. I informed him of the importance of the original GM uppers, and somebob actually went to his store and checked them out in person. It is a 100% guarantee that the upper I received came from an original Hydramatic.

Here is a general pic of the parts kit I got from ECG. Unfortunately no BCG, but charging handle, buffer tube, buffer and spring, and stock screw were present.


Right side of receiver.


The finish on the receiver, as well as the charging handle and slip ring, is a deep charcoal grey with a hint of green. It likely came from the factory black, and over 40+ years lightened up a bit. The receiver has very little wear, but where there is, it is worn through to natural gold anodizing. The wear on the charging handle and slip ring is consistent with the receiver and shows gold. Here are some pics of the gold showing through.



Here you can see some gold tint on the front of the carry handle.


The dark finish wears off very easily, especially on the slip ring.

Next are some unique characteristics of the upper itself. I later found another GM upper that has identical forging characteristics, and picture them side by side.

Forging flash on rear of carry handle.


There are several forging flaws I found on the original, and noticed on the gold upper too.

Note the "bulge" or "blister" in the recess under the sight wheel.


The same type of flaw is found on the other side in the same spot. Also note the forging flaw around the rear sight screws. BenC posted a pic of the same flaw on another GM upper I used to have, it is circled in red.


Another forging flaw, is found on the left side of the receiver, on the flat just behind the gas tube port. Looks like a ding, but they are identical on both uppers.


Another forging flaw is found on the left side of the receiver, along the bottom edge just behind the mag well shelf and bolt catch. It turns downward right at the faux sear pin on the gold lower. It is about 2" long, and looks like a dent or scratch, but again, both receivers have this mark. Kinda hard to see on the dark receiver.


Now a look at the rear sight wheel on the original. I got the gold receiver stripped, so I'm only picturing the one that is all original. Note the flat top 3 with downward point, the sight arrow, and L and R markings.


A look at the port door. It is standard but note the rounded corners on the pad.


The forward assist is consistent with other GI FA's, except it is marked on the back of the teardrop with a 1 in a circle. It is indexed sideways.


The front lug on the receiver is rebated, and the lugs are the same color as the rest of the upper, not black like 1960's Colt's.


Front of carry handle is machined smooth, note the concentric tooling mark around the gas tube port. My gold GM upper has identical machine marks. Gas tube port is X shaped.


The original charging handle that came with the parts kit is pretty typical, although note the row of 6 dimples across the back. The gold charging handle I have has thee dimples as well. They also both have a little notch mark on the right side of the T. It too is wearing through to gold.




With its gold sibling.






Now on to the barrel assembly. The barrel is marked MP between the FSB legs, and C toward the muzzle. The C is in line with the MP on the right side. No other markings on the barrel that I can find.



Gas tube is standard late bend.


The FSB has forging flash on the front and rear.



The forge codes on the FSB, from what I can tell, are a B on one side, and a sideways 9 on the other.



The bayonet lug has a forge code as well, it is a sideways M over P in a circle. Some of it is cut off by machining the lug.


The flash hider and lock ring look pretty standard. The phosphate finish is very dark on the barrel assembly, almost black. Hand guard cap is typical, nothing noticeably special here.


The hand guards that came on the upper are L and R marked drain hole type. They are glossy, but each side has a different texture to it. The left one is kind of swirly, the right has longitudinal texture to it.
Left side

Right side


The hand guards have mold marks. They each have a small cross and a number.
Kinda hard to get clear pics of both, but you can see the one has a 4and a cross. The other one has a 7 and a cross.


The A1 grip that came off the same rifle is the fat type. It also has a small cross mark with a number on the inside, and a C on the top.




Here's the grip compared to a skinny bottom grip. Note the definite profile differences.
GM grip on left, skinny grip on right.



Fat GM grip on right, skinny grip on left.



The but stock that came from the GM is a standard type D stock, no trap door. It is glossy, and resembles the finish on the right side hand guard, with longitudinal texture, almost looks like brush marks. Note the riveted sling swivel, not roll pinned.



The face of the receiver end is not marked.


The buffer tube that came with the kit is grey with black threads. It has kind of a grainy feeling to the finish. Note the machining on the end, different than what I've normally seen.



The stock screw is standard drain hole type, and it has green thread locker.



The buffer has a dimpled face, and a roll pinned pad. The pad is very dark maroon, almost looks black unless you're in the sunlight. Buffer spring looks to be pretty standard.



The sling that came off the rifle is a brown nylon M1 sling. Typical USGI.


That pretty much wraps up the parts kit that I got from ECG. I acquired and built up 2 GM BCG's according to willyp's guide.

Both carriers have identical machining characteristics, but are different shades of park, with different amounts of wear.
The sides of the carriers have the longitudinal machining marks, and the buffer detent groove, and the feed lip grooves also have these machining marks.
The keys are standard, one is side staked, one is top staked.
The FPRP hole is small, not large.




Both bolts are marked MP just above the left extractor pin.


More info to come.

I have one on a 603ish build I gave my dad last year. I posted some pictures back then, but there's no telling where they are now. As soon as I can get to it i'll take more.

Edit: Found some on the photo hosting site I use. This is the upper in question I have on Pop's rifle. It's refinished, and the front lug doesn't look rebated.

Bump. Added a ton of pics abd info of my GM stuff.

Sweet MrM1A1.  Had seen them before but not as detailed.  Don't know why but I've been trying to find the engraved arrow upper for a while.  Guess just to be a little different.

pics of my engraved upper here:


more pics here:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=572810

Here's one that only have the R engraved:


some good pics in this thread too:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=565734

MrM1A1, thanks for the nice pictures and all the information.  Can you measure the width of the grip you got with your GM upper?  If I remember correctly it is fatter than a "normal" fat grip.  Right after you won the auction for your upper I went and saw it and two others "just like" it.  While there I told the seller there are some guys out here on the Internet that want to document original GM rifles if possible, I sent one follow-up email but never heard back.  Have you heard from the seller?  I imagine the last thing he wants is "some guy from the Internet" that wants to look at LE M16s.  One thing we have to be aware of is the possibility the seller isn't as careful about mixing up parts as we are and we attribute one kind of grip / hand guard / stock / sling / etc to GM when in reality it came off some other rifle or was mixed up by someone 40 years ago.  While there I saw one really nice 69ish 603 Colt barreled upper receiver, we have to consider the possibility parts are getting mixed up as they come off these rifles.  As for your "D" stock, has anyone seen a "D" stock with a rivet in it?  Was this common?  Did colt keep using roll pins in the rear swivel when they switched to rivets for the front swivel?  (Could this be GM specific)

This weekend I'll take a closer look at my bronze upper to see if it has all the same forging flaws on the left side, I have a really beat up purple one that might be the same too.

I looked through a few other older posts with barrels like yours and I'm not sure all of them have the "MP" and "C" aligned.  There was an upside down "MP" marked barrel but the "C" was described as being in the 5 o'clock position.  Can others chime in on this?  Both my and my friend's GM style barrel is stamped with the "MP" and "C" in line on the right side of the barrel.  (I'll have to look for Veltro's post too now that I think about it)

As for your "D" stock, has anyone seen a "D" stock with a rivet in it?

Lots of them.  Think the change was around 69-70.  Type E was what 71?  I've seen and possess Colts and the numbered and symbol stocks both ways.  Could have easily been arsenal changed at a later date though but most of mine came from Quantico or Defense Supply Centers.   Keep in mind that stuff was very prone to breakage,  replacement and we're talking approximately 42 yrs now.  The grips I've seen with the NATOish cross symbol have all been rather fat.  Colt symbol is more like a timeclock and don't ever remember seeing any numbers just letters. Just checked the five builds I keep here,  as I only use A-1 PG's and all  have the  skinny Colt grips on them.

Member Tgus might have an original example of a GM or H&R.   If anyone here in retroland does have one it would be him.  Gonna be pretty hard to gather much hard fact info from anything that isn't a bonafide original.  Next time I get around one you can bet I'm gonna check it over pretty good.  Member Weapnsman I believe was an armorer in the 80's and got a lot of exposure and took notes.  Lots of parts swapping as you noted.  Hey let me use your HG's,  try mine.  They were a buddy system item even by the TM and easily mixed.  

Never seen any symbols or numbers on bonafide retro Colt M-16 furniture.  Never personally seen an all original GM except in pics.  Have seen,  disassembled and handled bonafide H&R and it had the numbers and symbols on the stock.  Don't remember about the swivel roll pin or rivet.  Didn't know to check HG's or PG at the time or even look for numbers on parts.  Do remember MP bolt.  Seen lots of different numbers on HG's and a few different on PG's.  Probably some on a few builds laying around I'm not aware of.  As we know there were lots of subs for furniture and some with the NIW stuff could chime in as what if any symbols are on them.  Thinking most of the NIW stuff we see today is dated from the late 70's early 80's long after GM and  H&R.  Just found another fat mottled grip with cross symbol in a drawer with an Armalite mag.

The fat grip measures about 1.250" in width in the middle of the checkering. At its widest, about .5" from the bottom just under the checkering, it grows to 1.29" in width. (+/- .005")

I agree that it is possible for the furniture to have been mixed up at ECG, or at some time during its life. The upper I know is GM for sure, and I'm confident, based on the overall condition of the upper, that it is very low mileage, it seems unlikely that the hand guards were switched out, but you never know. I think it's interesting that the grip and hamdguards appear to have come from the same maker, due to the cross mark. The buttstock isn't marked, so I can't speak to its maker, but it all matches really nicely, and I couldn't be happier with the condition of everything I got.

The rivet on the sling swivel is pretty cool, I believe they started the rivets right before they switched to type E trapdoor stocks, so they aren't as common. I forgot to mention that the front sling swivel is riveted on as well, I'll have to add that tomorrow.

The barrels with upside down MP on the left, at least all of the ones I have seen, have had the C upside down on the left in line with the MP. There vary well may be variations of the C location. It would be awesome if someone could post pics of their barrel with the upside down MP, I know a few folks around here have them.

Bob, glad to have you back man. I'll be honest, I have some of your photobucket albums bookmarked, and I can't help but drool over a couple of your builds and uppers, as well as Veltro's uppers from time to time. The color on the GM uppers are awesome. I'm pretty sure one of the goldish uppers you have has the forge flaws like mine. I'm interested to compare them to someone else's, it's pretty cool finding 40+ year old receivers that came out of the same forging die.

I have some pics of an all original, minty looking H&R, will post those when I get some time.

Not to jack thread but I've also seen what is believed to be a H&R FA with number on a few proofed Colt's over the years.  I'm  gonna assume they were arsenal replaced from contract parts on hand.  Interesting on the port doors.  All my Colts,  some were NOS bagged parts  have the squared corners on the pad.  Never noticed until this thread.  I sold six of the rebated black lug no proof assumed at the time to be Colt replacement receivers last year.  Four had FN, 4T663 and SAK replacement barrels and two had MP C barrels (nothing upside down).  They were all smooth and all had early bend gas tubes purchased from OOW.  The flash on a couple under the carry handle was almost sharp to touch.  

Lionel I really like that receiver but I believe the wife would cut my throat if I bought another one.

I agree.  The 1st one I saw was on an arsenal refinished upper receiver, here is the post I made:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/523406_.html

My bronze upper receiver has marks around the roll pin hole so it looks like the FA was removed at some point.  I've stopped keeping track but many of these rear forging flash uppers I have seen have FAs with that mark.  I might have statisitcs, I'll have to check.  I used to contact sellers on the EE / GB and ask about the FA.



This question is directed at everyone, are the grips with the "+" on them all fatter than "normal" fat grips?  Do they all have the very pointed bumps by the legacy sling swivel holes?  If it isn't clear what I mean by "pointed bumps" I can steal a copy of MrM1A1's picture and show what I am talking about.



ETA:  I just stumbled on this post, it looks like a H&R barrel on a Colt upper receiver.  The markings on the barrel are described as "MP" upside down on the left side and a "C" on the top of the barrel near the flash hider.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=581514

that's been my experience.  all the fatty grips have the + on them.  i haven't seen a fatty without the + nor have i seen a + mark on any other style.

heh, i'll make it easy on you.  not for sale

or you can tell your wife i was going to give you one heck of a deal but you showed enough restraint to say enough is enough and decided to get her something instead of another receiver for yourself.

heh, i'll make it easy on you. not for sale

No subliminal messages there.

or you can tell your wife i was going to give you one heck of a deal but you showed enough restraint to say enough is enough and decided to get her something instead of another receiver for yourself.

Spent all her gift coins on the bolt.  

Now the question.  Do the fat cross marked grips all have the number 4 inside?  I have a C and a F up top and both have the four and cross on the bottom.  I really thought I was done looking at this stuff with the bore light.

i'll have to take a look at mine again but when i was looking at the handguards and stocks, i noticed multiple cross/number combinations.  some had letters and numbers too.

BTT.

BTT

Please share some additional information.

I just bought this upper off the EE, add here.

I don't know if anyone knows exactly what these uppers are, but this was the last thing on my "want" list.  It is a black, rear forging flash upper, numbered forward assist, "MP C" barrel with the letters inline, forging flash / forging mark FSB, front lug is not rebated, forging flash on front of carry handle removed with tool marks running side to side.  It is in pretty nice shape, I think it is original finish / original components.My upper receiver is made from what I call the "very round" forging.  The seller didn't know if the hand guards were original, he had A2 guards on it at the time.  It arrived with a nice set of drain hole, no "L R" and not "+" mark inside.  I asked him to look through his bolt carriers and he couldn't find a GM style carrier, none of his charging handles had the row(s) of dots along the rear or the flat spot on the right.  In incandescent light the finish has a brown / purple tint, a friend sees it as gold / bronze tint, in fluorescent or daylight it looks pure black.  I see the purple tint in these photos, the slip ring is a perfect match.  Bottom picture shows the upper on a black lower, rifle at bottom is my bronze one with a new slip ring from MrM1A1.  (Thanks!)












The right most picture is a detail shot of the round forging mark above the port door.  It is more rounded than MrM1A1's upper so I think of it as "very round"













ETA: Here is a picture in florescent lighting where the purple tint doesn't sow up so much:





Here are some more pictures of the gold / bronze one.  I found it at a local show and started collecting similar colored parts to make an all gold rifle.  I had the lower custom anodized by US Anodizing.  (link to the clone build I did based on this upper receiver) (One more thread)















More pics Here.



While collecting gold parts (from boywonder777!) I came up with these charging handles, the rows of dots didn't make sense until MRM1A1 got his GM upper.  I went and saw his upper and two others "just like it" and I can't remember if I noticed the rows of dots while I was there.  I was getting ready to move, that was a crazy day, and I was rushed looking at them.  The seller was a nice guy but not a retro enthusiast and I don't think he was thrilled to have some guy from the Internet examining the details of old uppers he was trying to sell on GB.







Here are some pics of the uppers before they were sold off, I can't tell if the charging handles have the dots in the original size image.  The one without HGs was pure black in color, had dings in the finish, and had a gray with black latch charging handle and a frosty new "CMPC" barrel on it.

ETA: Veltro's upper (mentioned later in this thread) is the middle one with hand guards on it







ETA:  Here are a couple more.  I have no idea if the purple is original, the bulge / blister is difficult to see behind the sight screw.





This is an engraved one that you will see in some of the treads linked from here.  This one did not have a numbered forward assist, I don't think any upper made from this forging that has been posted here had a numbered forward assist.  

ETA: I ask about forging flash uppers when they show up on the EE and on GB, none of the ones similar to this one have had a numbered forward assist.

ETA: A few of these have shown up on different threads here, I think all of them have a light texture in the finish except for the barrel nut threads which are shiny.













These next two show a Colt upper with proof marks on top top, rear forging flash going through to gold, bulge / blister by site screw in the middle, and rear forging flash with nice gold under what appears to be very dark brown dye at bottom.  Bottom one has the rough finish bolt carrier in it.  Bottom assembly came together with the gold slip ring and inline "MP C" barrel and may be original to each other.







Upper without charging handle is a Colt "CH" forge, upper with charging handle is a rear forging flash upper, front flash removed with tool marks running side to side, rebated front lug.  Most made from this forging do not have rebated front lug.  The shape of the cam pin bulge,  where the mag well meets the carrier" tube" and in front of the port door appear more rounded than a regular round forge receiver so I think of them as "very round." This rear forging flash upper was probably arsenal refinished and was black with a copper / gold tint and had a rough texture and non-numbered forward assist.  Gray is Norrells molly resin.





ETA: I'm home sick today, here are a few more pictures.  These are pictures I have stolen from posts on the EE or GB, I hope I don't offend anyone.  I will take these photos down if requested.



This one looks black, I think it is just barely going through to gold where the upper meets the lower, roll pin holding the sling swivel on, bulge / blister by rear sight screw:









This one is showing a little more gold, had a C MP CHROME BORE barrel on it:







This one is a "very round" forge, numbered forward assist, can't tell if the front lug is rebated, looks black with maybe a purple tint in it / in the slip ring, rivet holding sling swivel on:









This one was on the EE within the last 2 years, nice and gold, sling swivel held on with a rivet, has blister and other forge flaws like MRM1A1 identified:







Another one that was on the EE, rear sight wearing black dye away where it impacts:





ETA: Fixed some broken thumbnail links that didn't go anywhere.

ETA: I don't think it is possible to have thumbnail links to certain image hosting sites any more.

I am in total and complete agreement with boywonders statement> "it's an area where a lot of new info have been uncovered as of late.",,,So much so that I wrote Aimless and respectfully requested that this thread be made a sticky (not that my opinion carries much weight). I suggest others also write Aimless and coctailer and request for a sticky as well.

it would be awesome if we could get a retro wiki somewhere where everyone can edit and add pics.  that way it's a living document that won't get archived or lost.

Many thanks to Aimless for making this a sticky!!

+1

Just sent Aimless a quick "thanks" for making my topic a sticky.  

Thanks to all thus far for sharing your pics and information.

Just for the record here guys,,I know you mentioned willp and his info/web site,,but we MUST add member Wpnsman name to this thread as he helped willp compile the info. Wpnsman took interest in the non Colt M16A1s years ago when he was in the service and kept notes on what he noticed, a lot of willp's info comes from Wpnsman. So,HUGE kudos go to Wpnsman for having the insight to take notice of what he saw and held in his hands,,and then to willp for compiling it into a nice neat starter package for us to study and expand on.

Good point, thank you Wpnsman.

It is easy for us to see pictures on here, RBR, and GB etc and notice details that we never would have had an opportunity to before digital cameras and the Internet.  I have photographed a bunch of vintage car stuff and I know that before digital cameras came along I would never have taken as many photos as I do now nor would I get instant feedback if I got the image I wanted.  Wpnsman, were you allowed to take pictures of rifles you encountered?  I know me and (at least) one other member here obsess over bulges and blisters on our upper receivers, were you able to notice details like this without (digital) pictures?

Ever realize you did something in a stupid way and want to go back in time to do it over?  I got that chance today.  First a little background information, MRM1A1 won an auction of what seems to be a GM / Hydra-Matic barreled upper (pictured earlier in this thread) and paid extra for the buttstock, grip, and sling.  The seller had a few more so I decide to go out and take a look, I was in a rush and didn't have time to look them over as well as I should have and missed some important details.  Later I meet user "Veltro" at a local show and he tries to tell me he bought a GM upper but it didn't sink in.  I'm over at his house earlier today and he shows me the GM upper from the same group as MRM1A1's and now I get my chance to travel back in time!  This thing is cool, I am a little jealous...


I only got to look at this in fluorescent light and these pictures were taken in fluorescent light so the finish looks pure black, some edges are wearing through to gold, slip rings wearing through to gold, forging is the more common round forging, right hand guard has the linear texture that runs lengthwise.  The right hand guard has visible "fish eyes" where the rivet bosses are.


Blisters and other forging flaws just like those identified by MRM1A1, edges wearing through to gold.


Blister / forging imperfections, numbered forward assist, charging handle edges wearing through to gold


Single row of 6 dots, probably fixture marks from manufacture


If there was a flat spot on this charging handle it was probably ground off during deburring, notice the charging handle shaft wearing through to gold


FSB forging marks


I can't tell if there is anything forged in the other side


Close up of hand guard texture


Close up of sight wheel, port door pad, and finish wearing through to gold on slip ring and carry handle


Both hand guards are marked with the hollow "+" (plus) sign, left has number "5" and I can't remember what is on the right, I think it was a "2."  Left hand guard had very minimal swirling pattern in it, right hand guard had the linear texture in it.


Again I was a little rushed, I'll take a closer look / get better pictures when the wet season is over.

ETA: full length pics

I just picked up a "thin" A1 grip today.  Inside the bottom of grip has a (I think stamped) "B" and a raised "C" backwards of the B and a asterik with a circle around it.  On the top side of the grip it has a raised "B".


Is the not completly drilled hole for a sling mount or what?

I was lucky enough to get one of the complete GM uppers from Andy at ECG.
The one I have is black with the gold showing through in places, my question is, is this the original finish? Or has it been redone over the years. I want to send out the lower (or upper and lower) to have it anodized and would like to get it as close to original as possible.

Awesome! It would be really awesome if you could share some clear detailed pics for us, just to see if there are any tiny variances from the others. Would love to compare our uppers!

Anyways, yes that is absolutely original finish! Victor can do black over gold to replicate this type of finish on your lower. He did my gold GM lower, and somebob's gold lower, and I'm sure more. I am finishing another GM 80% soon and having Victor do the same finish again, although I won't be wearing it down. It will naturally wear with the upper.

I would love to if I can figure out how to post pics! (not too computer savy)

Hello RUQIKR454.  Thanks for posting and it is good to know the 3rd upper ended up with someone that appreciates what it is!  I know some of the ECG auctions had the uppers listed as "Colt" or "Colt / GM" and I was hoping who ever ended up with them did not think they were the wrong color and try to alter or refinish them.  

I think they are original finish.  We've seen a few uppers like this show up here and on other sites / auctions and if they are all refinished it doesn't seem likely we would see the same barrels and forward assists on these rear forging flash uppers and not on refinished Colt or other uppers.  Records kept by WpnsMan describe gray, dark gray, or black finish (I'm paraphrasing here) and demilled Hydra-Matic lowers show gray, dark gray, black, and on some blackish colors wearing through to gold anodizing.  We see similar finish / colors on some of these uppers so it seems possible they were anodized together in batches.  Many of the re-anodized Colt (and other) receivers I have seen have (rifle rack gate) dents or grinding / buffing marks "under" the anodizing and although the uppers we are calling original finish GM have some dents under the anodizing they don't look like the dents / wear marks of an already used receiver.  I think one thing that complicates the "original finish or refinish" question is the fact that many Colt and other refinished upper receivers are painted or anodized black and we might mistake an original finish black GM / Hydra-Matic or H&R upper to be a refinished black upper.  Both the engraved upper receiver and black barreled upper I posted pictures of here were listed on the EE as black refinished uppers.  I think digital photography and the Internet have changed the amount of detail we can analyze on all of these parts, blowing up digital pictures shows more detail than I can see with my eyes, posts here and on other sites show little details we would never have the chance to see otherwise, and the hoarding and comparison of other people's digital pictures helps identify "blisters" and other annoying forging flaws.  (hoarding?)  

I'll contact you about taking / posting pictures.

ETA: edits / clarifications

Well said Bob. Finishes do tend to vary on the GM/H&R's. I saw an all original H&R last summer that sold for a lot of money ($25k+ IIRC), and the finish was dark gray, looked like a Colt finish. The GM demil receivers I have are a mix of worn gold and dark charcoal gray. The gold pieces I have show both black and dark gray remaining over the good on the inside nooks and crannies. The gold charging handle I have on my gold GM, which has the 6 dots in a row on the back, has a lighter gray left on the shaft than most I've seen. So finishes definitely vary on these.

I was hoping to visit the Navy SEAL museum in Ft. Pierce, FL on my vacation a couple weeks ago, but I ended up not making it. They have an original GM in their displays, I was going to speak with the curator to see if they would let me take detailed pictures of it out of the case, but it never got that far. Would've been cool to note the details of an original rifle that's been in the case for years. Although we all know that sometimes museums have seemingly original pieces, only to find out they have replaced parts.

Here are some pictures from a recently completed auction on GB.  I contacted the seller about this auction but did not hear back from the seller.  I edited the levels and blacked out reference to the seller's name, I will remove references to these pictures from this post and take the images down from my photobucket acount if asked.  (Sorry if I offend anyone)  

To play devil's advocate, here is a black upper receiver with a black slip ring and a black charging handle and one of the "GM style" barrels.  Is this evidence that all of these black barreled uppers are refinished / rebuilt and we just came a cross a batch with numbered forward assists and strange marks on the charging handles?  I see Colt proof marks and texture in the finish that we do not see in the rear forging flash uppers posted earlier in this thread.  There is one dent on the right side just below the charging handle that could be "under" the finish.  The forward assist is not numbered and we don't see row(s) of dots or the flat spot on the charging handle.  The bolt carrier looks like a Colt from around 1967 - 1968 and I forget the variations of the "MP" bolts but I think separate "M" and "P" means Colt.  Should we think of this one as a refinished Colt upper with a mix of parts that just happened to end up with a GM barrel?  What do you think?

I think considering the mix and match policy of the DoD, it is entirely possible that it is a refinished Colt upper that got mated with a GM barrel during rework.
The barrel is definitely consistent with the GM's you, I, and others have observed. I would say it is an arsenal job, mating functioning upper and a functioning barrel, DoD didn't care who made them at that point.

The other batch of uppers that you and I have been chatting about appear to be a mix of original and franken-uppers. The one I have coming appears to be original, just like my other original, marked forward assist, flash on handle, same markings on barrel, etc. The handguards even have the same 2 types of finishes as on my original GM.

Other uppers that are out of that batch seem to bei either late Colt, CM and CK uppers with C MP CHROME BORE barrels. As the seller told me, he has 'several' of the MP C barreled uppers with marked forward assist and flash on the rear of the carry handle. He also stated that they all came off reworked rifles that were transfered to an LE agency after 9/11, so some may be mix match, some may be original. Tough to say.

I will definitely take a bunch of detailed pics of the one I have coming like I did on my other GM barreled upper. The upper should be here in a week, will update when it arrives.

That is a Colt bolt somebob - see the slash marks behind the lugs? Only Colt does that in that way.

Well guys, a few days ago I finally got the GM upper I've been waiting on the past couple weeks. Here's the breakdown.

It was sold to me as an arsenal rework upper, although it doesn't appear to have been refinished, really it doesn't seem to have been changed around much, if at all. 

Let's start with the receiver. Here are some general receiver shots. Note that it is the 'very round' forging that has been observed before. Looks very much like ar15guy's upper.



'Very round'



Compared to my other GM upper in the background, you can see this area's roundness is more pronounced.



Side by side with my other GM, not the difference in finish texture and color.



Here are all 3 of my GM's from the rear, showing forging flash. (inspired by somebob) Goldie on the left, original finish in middle, and the new-to-me upper on the right.



The finish is a very deep gray, not quite black, and there are a couple normal wear spots that show gold underneath, the lugs, contact point of the CH latch, and the CH channel.





The sight wheel has the downturned 3. The sight arrow is the small open type.



The port door is identical to my other original GM, it has the rounded corners on the pad.



The forward assist has the circled number mark in the inside, this one is marked with a 7. This is pretty cool, only ever seen 1,2,3 and 4 marks.



The pivot pin lug is not rebated.



The machining marks on the front of the receiver are identical to my gold GM upper, leading me to believe they wear machined with the same tooling.



the charging handle that came with te upper matches the upper finish perfectly. It has the row of 6 dimples on the rear, and has heavy gold showing through the wear spots. It's the bottom one in these pics.






The slip ring matches the upper and CH pretty close as well, and has little gold marks on the inside contact points with the weld spring (not pictured).



Now we'll check out the barrel. It is the same configuration as my other GM barrel. MP C marked, forging flash on the FSB, numbered forge codes on either side, and the MP circle forge mark on the bayonet lug. The numbers are more pronounced on this barrel, clearly seen as 20 on one side, and 0 on the other. Bayo lug has forging flash on the rear as well.






The C mark toward the muzzle is in line with the MP on the right side of the barrel.



The handguards that came on the upper are nicely mottled, and have a fair amount of wear, and a decent crack in each on the underside. One of them is marked with the + and a number, almost impossible to capture with the iPhone camera. Otherwise typical L and R marked drainhole HG's.






And another somebob inspired pic for good measure. The GM family.



I'm sure I'll notice more, will share any updates. Any observations are welcome and encouraged. Thanks!

Now, where are the groovy engraved 80% lowers to complete those bitchin' Hydramatics? Possible serial numbers ending in: 396, 427, 454.....

Now, where are the groovy engraved 80% lowers to complete those bitchin' Hydramatics? Possible serial numbers ending in: 396, 427, 454.....

Good question! The gold one has been built for almost a year, braceman did the GM marked lower for that one. I have a redbaby GM stamped 80% that I'm milling out this next week for the excellent condition original GM upper. The latest upper pictured above will sit on the shelf for the most part. Two GM builds is enough for me, at least at the moment. I'll probably end up buying more in the future, I fear I'm doomed to hoard GM's.

Now, where are the groovy engraved 80% lowers to complete those bitchin' Hydramatics? Possible serial numbers ending in: 396, 427, 454.....

I wish I had thought of that before having my 80% lower engraved for my Hydramatic. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the s/n for my 69 Camaro would have been a great s/n to have used.

The tool marks on the front face of the receiver are from when the barrel nut threads were cut on a lathe.  Here is the front face of a "CH" forge upper receiver, same marks but just not as deep / ugly as on our GMs.  Also, every colt upper receiver I have seen has this kind of tool marks where the front flash was removed.  (It looks like a buffing wheel was the last step in the process)





One of these days I want to get all the local GM uppers together for a shoot.

I understand that all receivers are cut the same way on the front face when the barrel threads are cut. I'm saying that all 3 of my GM uppers have the exact  same tooling marks. There is a raised line on all three in the exact same place, that's why I think they were all cut on the same tooling. The red arrows in these pics point out the raised line I'm referring to.





Man I wish I was local to Olympia, that would be super fun! I don't think the wife would be too happy about me flying 2k miles to shoot my rifle with some guys from the internet. Although I would if I had the time and money....and no wife.

Here's some comparison photos of my 2 uppers.  

The black upper was bought off GunBroker as a GM upper.  It has all the casing flash and casting flaws associated with GM uppers we've seen.
The faded upper was bought from Ohio Ordnance Works as an M16A1 upper.  It also has the casting flash, but none of the usual casting flaws.  I've presumed that this might be an H&R upper.
Refer to  Somebob's postings for a pictorial on the known casting flaws.

GM


H&R



GM


H&R


GM


H&R

I see your point, back in the 80s the parts I worked with were turned on CNC machines and your two uppers probably came off the same beat-up machine lathe.



I'll bet you could hitchhike out here with a couple ARs slung over your shoulder, what could go wrong?

I hope this works and the pics are good! I had a hard time doing this, between taking pics with different cameras trying to get clear pics and learning how to post pics in the thread. The only thing I could not get was an accurate pic of the color, they all look gret but the upper is black with gold comming through in spots!



Left side of receiver, in the pics it looks grey but it is black with gold shining through in places.



you can see the "blisters' in the charging handle area, same as the others shown in this thread.



Six punch marks in the back of the charging handle.









10 on the FSB





Both hand guards match there is a small crack on the bottom of one of them
there is a +2 on the left and a +6 on the right I could not get a good pic of the marks.



Close-up of the "blisters"

I will take some more pics of the front and rear of the carry handle casting flash, butt stock and buffer tube.

I was supposed to get the original grip but it was not in the box and i was very happy with the upper I did not contact the seller to see if he had it. Had I of known how tough they are to find I would have followed up on it!