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6/17/2013 4:21:35 PM
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Megaro
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Posted: 8/2/2012 2:00:44 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 2:15:15 PM by Megaro]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
I see NDS has a black anodized H&R / GM? upper. Can you educate me on this.
I had assumed all the retro rifles / carbines used in VN were some type of gray anodizing. Was this mil spec or just convention?
Does anyone have any photos of real deal black anodized retros that would have seen service in VN?
I have only seen one photo (not mine) below which I am sure I downloaded from the ar15 website, I just don't remember where.
Is this an H&R or GM? I guess it could be a clone, can't tell.
I sure do love the retro gray, but the black anodizing is kind of growing on me. I had assumed black anodizing didn't come about until
the a2 came into being. Maybe not? Thanks in advance!

Cal30M1
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Posted: 8/2/2012 4:10:38 PM
That is a dead sexy picture! I don't care if it's black or gray! It's all chrome on the inside! (of the later barrels.)
boywonder777
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Posted: 8/2/2012 4:59:19 PM
i've got demilled receiver sections of GM and H&R rifles that show the black finish worn down to the bronze anodizing. i also have trigger guards/mag buttons/charging handles with the same black over bronze.
my wtb list - http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_129/935250_.html
Cdenmark
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Posted: 8/2/2012 9:37:24 PM
[Last Edit: 8/2/2012 10:12:54 PM by Cdenmark]
i've got demilled receiver sections of GM and H&R rifles that show the black finish worn down to the bronze anodizing. i also have trigger guards/mag buttons/charging handles with the same black over bronze.

This. Good question but NDS also asked retroland before mfg I believe. Think the milspec refers to hardness and thickness of coating / treatment. also believe they are sealed. I know the new parts are advertised as teflon coated in many instances. Milspec wasn't for a specific dye color that I'm aware of anyway. We do call it RBRD and not RGRD!
Morg308
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Posted: 8/3/2012 6:40:36 AM
There are pictures in the 'Real Deal' thread if you look that clearly show black uppers on grey lowers. Uncle Sam was not as particular about color matching as we are here. That is purely a retro forum thing. A lot of later 16's were black - some were refinished, some were built new like that. I think they changed over around '72 or so, but my CRS is kicking in. DeWatter's 5.56 timeline should have an approximate date - I believe Ekie's guide at the top may have it as well. Most post VN rifles would have been black.
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Megaro
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Posted: 8/3/2012 6:24:07 PM
Very interesting thoughts. In browsing through various photos, I think it was more than just a GM / H&R thing. Here is a picture of a transfer-able xm16e1 that looks black to my eyes. Maybe the anodizing pigment mix theory is the answer. Dunno. Get an eye full of this one, too bad the engravings aren't sharp:

44Echo10
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Posted: 8/3/2012 9:59:48 PM
Originally Posted By Megaro:
Very interesting thoughts. In browsing through various photos, I think it was more than just a GM / H&R thing. Here is a picture of a transfer-able xm16e1 that looks black to my eyes. Maybe the anodizing pigment mix theory is the answer. Dunno. Get an eye full of this one, too bad the engravings aren't sharp:

http://imageshack.us/a/img72/8068/realxm16e1.gif


That one is stamped with Depot rebuild marks. http://dndguns.com/Colt_XM16E1/dsc00439.htm Likely not the original finish.

http://dndguns.com/colt_xm16e1.htm
Megaro
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:14:08 PM
Ah, rebuild. Good catch 44Echo10.
I am not sure what to make of that rifle. Full fence xm16e1 with a triangle charging handle. Hmmmm.
44Echo10
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Posted: 8/3/2012 10:15:53 PM
Originally Posted By Megaro:
Ah, rebuild. Good catch 44Echo10.
I am not sure what to make of that rifle. Full fence xm16e1 with a triangle charging handle. Hmmmm.


Full fence is legit for a late production XM16E1, triangle charging handle though ...not
Cdenmark
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Posted: 8/4/2012 12:32:22 AM
I'm thinking the milspec article posted by M1sniper a while back about dipping arsenal re-finish black was dated 1967 but I've been known to be wrong. I know I have a couple rebated lug 604 receivers that are definately black and came from a Defense Supply Center. I'll say arsenal re-finished but pretty smooth finish on them and I'm not stripping them to fins out.
Pro2ndAm
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Posted: 8/4/2012 5:42:14 PM
My late A1 upper looks black to me, especially when compared to NDS XM gray upper. Look at the contrast between the port door cover and the receiver.

LongTrang
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Posted: 8/6/2012 9:53:47 PM
[Last Edit: 8/6/2012 10:15:39 PM by LongTrang]
Here's a question for you fellas. I'm scraping together parts for a late 70's early 80's A1 for my USMC displays. Going for that Lebanon look. Would it have been uncommon to see a mixture of Gray and Black A1's during this time? My gut says no...BUT...I just want to check with the hive first and get your takes.

Edit: Question is in relation to gray vs black ratio given the time period.
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Cdenmark
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Posted: 8/7/2012 10:30:21 AM
I wouldn't think it uncommon to see a mix of black and grey during this time for A-1's. Heck there was a mix long before that.
LongTrang
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:42:47 AM
Originally Posted By Cdenmark:
I wouldn't think it uncommon to see a mix of black and grey during this time for A-1's. Heck there was a mix long before that.


Right. That is why my gut told me yes. However, again given that late in the game for the A1 I wasn't sure just how many were refinished..etc..I would've assumed more black than gray.
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Aimless
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:44:41 AM
I have what I assume is an early Air Force upper without chrome lining that is a deep black, not grey. I keep meaning to do something with it
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MrM1A1
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Posted: 8/7/2012 12:22:19 PM
I have GM demils that are black, and some other pieces that I got from boywonder777 that are worn to gold. GM and H&R were typically black, although I have seen some that were dark grey, not sure if refinished or not tho. As said above, DoD likely weren't too concerned with matching colors, as we are. The pic in the OP looks like a GM A1.

Here's a black GM mag well with my original GM upper. Upper has a greenish tint to it, and shows a touch of gold on a few wear markes. The lower does not show any gold though.



Here is my other GM upper and the rest of the demils, all of these parts were black at one point and have since worn to gold hues.


And here's my baby goldie all built up around the gold upper and parts above.
Der_Hans
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Posted: 8/7/2012 7:59:08 PM
Originally Posted By Aimless:
I have what I assume is an early Air Force upper without chrome lining that is a deep black, not grey. I keep meaning to do something with it


Mail it to me!

If you aren't sure what it is, post a few pics and some closeups of the markings in here and we'll probably be able to tell you for sure.
somebob
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Posted: 8/7/2012 11:22:53 PM
Here are some pictures of the dark parts of my rear forging flash upper, I'm assuming this is what is left of original finish. The dye color is black, it is not a dark gray. It would be nice to see a higher resolution scan of the picture OP linked to. What else is interesting about it is the slip ring looks very gold like some of the (gold tint) rear forging flash uppers have.







Originally Posted By Aimless:
I have what I assume is an early Air Force upper without chrome lining that is a deep black, not grey. I keep meaning to do something with it


Could we see some pictures please?
Morg308
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Posted: 8/8/2012 7:04:44 AM
Originally Posted By Aimless:
I have what I assume is an early Air Force upper without chrome lining that is a deep black, not grey. I keep meaning to do something with it


601 and 602 uppers were generally darker. Pics or it didn't happen!
Dogs forgive us our foibles, loving us unconditionally. Anyone who doesn't see them as a member of the family doesn't understand dogs. I'll miss you baby.