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gordog
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Posted: 3/29/2012 6:51:50 PM
Does anybody have a good pic of the types A B C D stocks? I have a really hard time differentiating one from another. I know i can go to RetroBlackRifle and see them, but, I cant look at them all at the same time to see what the heck the difference is. Thanks in advance.
m1sniper
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Posted: 3/29/2012 7:20:23 PM
[Last Edit: 3/29/2012 7:28:37 PM by m1sniper]
Vaar and HK45shooter have the best comparision pics.Just to get you started,here are some of mine.Top is green type A 601, 2nd is a green type B 601, 3rd is a black painted type B removed from an 11,xxx SN 601, next is a type C and last is a type D.
As you can see,,the B,C,and D look very much alike,but Vaar has a pic of them standing up and you can see the "crease" as I call it that the B and C has but D does not.
DON'T EVER DOUBT THE TALENTS OF HEATNBEAT!
Boy,I'd love to stumble across a Redfield Jr. one piece base marked 40X on the bottom
m1sniper
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Posted: 3/29/2012 11:18:14 PM
Found it gordog.Picture courtesy of Vaar.
Type A,early no straw hole type C,type D and late straw hole type C. Note on the 2nd and last stock where the stock starts to widen,there is a "crease" at the bend whereas the type D has a smooth transition. Also,type A,B,C stocks are very close in diameter at the mouth as the shoulder on the buffer tube.Type D stocks stand "proud" of the buffer tube shoulder.
DON'T EVER DOUBT THE TALENTS OF HEATNBEAT!
Boy,I'd love to stumble across a Redfield Jr. one piece base marked 40X on the bottom
hk45shooter
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Posted: 3/30/2012 3:59:04 AM
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 4:03:31 AM by hk45shooter]
The only two that I have are comparison of a Type C & D stock. The B & C are the same dimensionally, with the Type B being green instead of black. (By time the B's come out they were all painted green IIRC.) With that said here are my pictures of the C & D stocks.



A picture of my Type A stock before the green paint was stripped. It's the best example of a Type A stock I have. Sorry I do not have them all together, though I should do that someday.


ETA: It can be very hard noticing the different bends on the bottom of the C's & D's if you do not have both side by side such as in a for sale ad.
Jack Kevorkian for White House Physician.

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Megaro
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Posted: 3/30/2012 12:15:31 PM
That is interesting. I thought I read somewhere that the Type A stocks were only on the first 100 or so 601s and were by definition brown. I thought that the switch to Type B occurred when the furniture was brown but oversprayed with green. Is this correct or is it possible that yours was from the factory brown and then later overpainted green by Uncle Sam?
hk45shooter
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Posted: 3/30/2012 12:34:26 PM
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 12:39:37 PM by hk45shooter]
Are you referring to my Type A stock Megaro? I believe you are correct on the part of the first 100 +/- 601's being brown, but there were many more than 100+/- 601's so they were painted green afterwords. I stole this (below in quotes) from the Colt's USGI M16 variations guide edition IV tacked at the top of the forum. The first set of #'s is production #'s for 601's.

"101-14,484
1959-1963
US Air Force/Project AGILE/SEAL issue Colt's AR-15 Model 601, roll marked ARMALITE. Some sold commercially to police departments, small numbers to foreign militaries such as Malaya, India, Australia, Burma, and Singapore."

My green paint was original Colt painted, & let me tell you that stuff does not come off very easy at all.

ETA: Now that I look all the other Type A's in this thread are green too, so if you were just talking about them in general, my apologies.
Jack Kevorkian for White House Physician.

You can get further with kind words and a gun then kind words alone.
OlGunner
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Posted: 3/30/2012 1:02:23 PM
Reports say the first 100 (not sure if that's an exact number or approximate) were left unpainted, so they're plain brown "bakelite" (to use the common but imprecise term).
Then they started painting them green for military markets or black for law enforcement and civilian sales. (In some cases, black over green over brown...but I've seen no examples of green over black over brown.)
The type A's lasted well into the production run of 14k+ Model 01's before the stronger Type B took their place.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I don't remember ever seeing a factory black-painted Type B. by the time the Type B came into use, I imagine almost all production was aimed at military contracts, but I'd be surprised if there weren't at least a few law enforcement sales during the later 01 period.
A black-painted Type B would look (to the untrained eye) a lot like the "common" Type D stock. I wonder if there are any floating around whose owners don't know what they have?
I think any old AR15 accessory marked with the "Armalite" brand is cool. You know--like the earliest bipods. Yep...having one of those early, Armalite-marked bipods would be cool. Definitely cool. I'm just sayin'.
hk45shooter
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Posted: 3/30/2012 1:11:00 PM
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Reports say the first 100 (not sure if that's an exact number or approximate) were left unpainted, so they're plain brown "bakelite" (to use the common but imprecise term).
Then they started painting them green for military markets or black for law enforcement and civilian sales. (In some cases, black over green over brown...but I've seen no examples of green over black over brown.)
The type A's lasted well into the production run of 14k+ Model 01's before the stronger Type B took their place.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I don't remember ever seeing a factory black-painted Type B. by the time the Type B came into use, I imagine almost all production was aimed at military contracts, but I'd be surprised if there weren't at least a few law enforcement sales during the later 01 period.
A black-painted Type B would look (to the untrained eye) a lot like the "common" Type D stock. I wonder if there are any floating around whose owners don't know what they have?


& without having any paint wear it would be passed as a Type C to a "trained eye". I wonder if m1sniper's has paint missing & that is how he come to the conclusion of it being a black B stock? Rob?
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You can get further with kind words and a gun then kind words alone.
Megaro
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Posted: 3/30/2012 1:59:22 PM
hk45shooter, I think that you and OlGunner answered my question.

So, as I understand it, the current thinking is that the first 100 or so stocks were Type A brown. However, the Type A began being painted green after the first 100 or so due to the military contracts. The type A stock (now overpainted green) continued for a period of time on the 601 until it was latter replaced by the type B. Is that correct?

Thanks for the photos and the insight. That is my favorite period of the Black Rifle, I think because of the history and the novelty of the 601 in a world that was dominated then by heavy, wood battle rifles.
OlGunner
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Posted: 3/30/2012 2:24:39 PM
Megaro, I think you've got it. I am not sure, though, atwhat point the Type B started. I think it was past the mid-point of 01 production, but I don't remember all the serial numbers I used to track.

HK45––yep, that's what I'm thinking. (Actually, I hadn't even realized that M1Sniper's black B was factory black. That's the only one I've seen.)
Considering that most "casual" AR guys couldn't differentiate between a Type C and Type D, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find people with black B's and C's who think they're no different than the other million "old AR" stocks.
I think any old AR15 accessory marked with the "Armalite" brand is cool. You know--like the earliest bipods. Yep...having one of those early, Armalite-marked bipods would be cool. Definitely cool. I'm just sayin'.
VAAR
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Posted: 3/30/2012 2:44:26 PM
That may be true, but not to a great extent. I've gone through hundreds of "D" stocks from many sources, and never found a "C" in there...
m1sniper
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Posted: 3/30/2012 6:43:34 PM
Originally Posted By hk45shooter:
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Reports say the first 100 (not sure if that's an exact number or approximate) were left unpainted, so they're plain brown "bakelite" (to use the common but imprecise term).
Then they started painting them green for military markets or black for law enforcement and civilian sales. (In some cases, black over green over brown...but I've seen no examples of green over black over brown.)
The type A's lasted well into the production run of 14k+ Model 01's before the stronger Type B took their place.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I don't remember ever seeing a factory black-painted Type B. by the time the Type B came into use, I imagine almost all production was aimed at military contracts, but I'd be surprised if there weren't at least a few law enforcement sales during the later 01 period.
A black-painted Type B would look (to the untrained eye) a lot like the "common" Type D stock. I wonder if there are any floating around whose owners don't know what they have?


& without having any paint wear it would be passed as a Type C to a "trained eye". I wonder if m1sniper's has paint missing & that is how he come to the conclusion of it being a black B stock? Rob?

You ARE kidding,right HK???? I had quite an extensive post last year with detailed pics.Black paint on brown fibergalss stock,,NO green shows in the spots missing the paint,and looking down the buffer tube hole again NO sign of any green,,same with the PG,black paint,,only the HGs show black over green and the black goes behind the heat shields.
DON'T EVER DOUBT THE TALENTS OF HEATNBEAT!
Boy,I'd love to stumble across a Redfield Jr. one piece base marked 40X on the bottom
gordog
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Posted: 3/30/2012 7:17:04 PM
WOW! You guys really are awesome! I greatly appreciate you posting and explaining the pics. Now i think i know what i,m looking for, for my 601 project (the more i work on it, the more i reaiize that it will NEVER be completed LOL) Heck, the only thing REAL it has going for it would be the bolt and carrier. And i thought it was "Good Enough", until i opened this (STOCK) "can of worms". Thanks guys.
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Posted: 3/30/2012 8:22:13 PM
[Last Edit: 3/30/2012 8:23:32 PM by Cdenmark]
(the more i work on it, the more i reaiize that it will NEVER be completed LOL)

Welcome to RBRD! It will happen after you put it down a couple of times. Patience. Lot of reproduction parts in most 601 builds due to authentic parts scarcity and price which happens to actually effect some. Seems like when you are about give up you will find a 601 bolt catch and dimple pins for $10 or less. Will have to be in the right place at the right time.

You can re-profile a D stock to resemble a A or B but you will need to go slow (which bites) and paint decent for desired look until some real parts come along within your budget. 601 furniture can get scary pricey. Good set of 601 furniture will run more than I have in most my retro's complete and sometimes more than two depending on auction and buyers wallets. It's the gathering of parts that is most the fun unless possibly cleaning out a couple goobers with tacticools wallets shooting against a 1-12 twist .22 cal antique. Three years or more to scrounge up parts and 1hr to assemble and test. Gotta love it.

After the 601 test go for the PHD (602) and good luck. Think I've been stashing parts for 5 yrs now and just getting close. I've traded, robbed Peter to pay Paul and even offered more than decent amounts of cash and it has been quite the challenge. Nothing like finding parts for late 1800's and early 1900's rifles but getting there quickly.
Trimdad
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:13:11 AM
Originally Posted By gordog:
WOW! You guys really are awesome! I greatly appreciate you posting and explaining the pics. Now i think i know what i,m looking for, for my 601 project (the more i work on it, the more i reaiize that it will NEVER be completed LOL) Heck, the only thing REAL it has going for it would be the bolt and carrier. And i thought it was "Good Enough", until i opened this (STOCK) "can of worms". Thanks guys.


Ya be careful what you ask for. I don't have the patience to wait years for a 60 yr
Old 601 front sight base, that will cost as much as a glock, or a early gas tube, etc..
I don't mind buying a new one an having it modified, and if somebody calls me on it at the range,,,,,
They should be slapped,,,,,,,, pimp style !
hk45shooter
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:41:56 AM
Originally Posted By m1sniper:
Originally Posted By hk45shooter:
Originally Posted By OlGunner:
Reports say the first 100 (not sure if that's an exact number or approximate) were left unpainted, so they're plain brown "bakelite" (to use the common but imprecise term).
Then they started painting them green for military markets or black for law enforcement and civilian sales. (In some cases, black over green over brown...but I've seen no examples of green over black over brown.)
The type A's lasted well into the production run of 14k+ Model 01's before the stronger Type B took their place.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I don't remember ever seeing a factory black-painted Type B. by the time the Type B came into use, I imagine almost all production was aimed at military contracts, but I'd be surprised if there weren't at least a few law enforcement sales during the later 01 period.
A black-painted Type B would look (to the untrained eye) a lot like the "common" Type D stock. I wonder if there are any floating around whose owners don't know what they have?


& without having any paint wear it would be passed as a Type C to a "trained eye". I wonder if m1sniper's has paint missing & that is how he come to the conclusion of it being a black B stock? Rob?

You ARE kidding,right HK???? I had quite an extensive post last year with detailed pics.Black paint on brown fibergalss stock,,NO green shows in the spots missing the paint,and looking down the buffer tube hole again NO sign of any green,,same with the PG,black paint,,only the HGs show black over green and the black goes behind the heat shields.


I was not suggesting any green paint on your stock, just merely the fact that there must have been some of the black paint missing for you to know it was in fact a black Type B, instead of a C. A year is too long for me to remember such things & I did not search for anything.
Jack Kevorkian for White House Physician.

You can get further with kind words and a gun then kind words alone.
m1sniper
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Posted: 3/31/2012 7:23:30 AM
A refresher for ya:


DON'T EVER DOUBT THE TALENTS OF HEATNBEAT!
Boy,I'd love to stumble across a Redfield Jr. one piece base marked 40X on the bottom
Morg308
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Posted: 3/31/2012 7:28:52 AM
I'm not sure why I have to keep reminding people that Ekie's guide is a great resource, but it is. Right at the top of the page also. It's there for a reason guys. Great pics m1sniper.
"It was as natural as eating, and to me as necessary, and I would not have thought of eating a meal without drinking beer." - Ernest Hemingway
Megaro
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Posted: 3/31/2012 1:49:15 PM
Originally Posted By Morg308:
I'm not sure why I have to keep reminding people that Ekie's guide is a great resource, but it is. Right at the top of the page also. It's there for a reason guys. Great pics m1sniper.


Morg, I agree that Ekie's guide is top-notch. However, even Ekie himself states: "Since Colt did not make their own handguards and used multiple vendors, and handguards are frequently replaced on USGI rifles this is a real tough subject to pin down. I don't have dates on all of these, but do see several distinct variations. This does not come close to covering all the details, but will give you an idea." I think discussions such as in this thread are helping us retro-heads fill in the details as best as we can on a hard to pin down topic.
VAAR
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Posted: 3/31/2012 11:53:30 PM
Originally Posted By Cdenmark:
(the more i work on it, the more i reaiize that it will NEVER be completed LOL)

Welcome to RBRD! It will happen after you put it down a couple of times. Patience. Lot of reproduction parts in most 601 builds due to authentic parts scarcity and price which happens to actually effect some. Seems like when you are about give up you will find a 601 bolt catch and dimple pins for $10 or less. Will have to be in the right place at the right time.

You can re-profile a D stock to resemble a A or B but you will need to go slow (which bites) and paint decent for desired look until some real parts come along within your budget. 601 furniture can get scary pricey. Good set of 601 furniture will run more than I have in most my retro's complete and sometimes more than two depending on auction and buyers wallets. It's the gathering of parts that is most the fun unless possibly cleaning out a couple goobers with tacticools wallets shooting against a 1-12 twist .22 cal antique. Three years or more to scrounge up parts and 1hr to assemble and test. Gotta love it.

After the 601 test go for the PHD (602) and good luck. Think I've been stashing parts for 5 yrs now and just getting close. I've traded, robbed Peter to pay Paul and even offered more than decent amounts of cash and it has been quite the challenge. Nothing like finding parts for late 1800's and early 1900's rifles but getting there quickly.


Actually, I think finishing my Ph.D. was easier than finishing my 602 replica...

boywonder777
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Posted: 4/1/2012 12:28:41 AM
[Last Edit: 4/1/2012 12:28:56 AM by boywonder777]
Originally Posted By VAAR:
Originally Posted By Cdenmark:
(the more i work on it, the more i reaiize that it will NEVER be completed LOL)

Welcome to RBRD! It will happen after you put it down a couple of times. Patience. Lot of reproduction parts in most 601 builds due to authentic parts scarcity and price which happens to actually effect some. Seems like when you are about give up you will find a 601 bolt catch and dimple pins for $10 or less. Will have to be in the right place at the right time.

You can re-profile a D stock to resemble a A or B but you will need to go slow (which bites) and paint decent for desired look until some real parts come along within your budget. 601 furniture can get scary pricey. Good set of 601 furniture will run more than I have in most my retro's complete and sometimes more than two depending on auction and buyers wallets. It's the gathering of parts that is most the fun unless possibly cleaning out a couple goobers with tacticools wallets shooting against a 1-12 twist .22 cal antique. Three years or more to scrounge up parts and 1hr to assemble and test. Gotta love it.

After the 601 test go for the PHD (602) and good luck. Think I've been stashing parts for 5 yrs now and just getting close. I've traded, robbed Peter to pay Paul and even offered more than decent amounts of cash and it has been quite the challenge. Nothing like finding parts for late 1800's and early 1900's rifles but getting there quickly.


Actually, I think finishing my Ph.D. was easier than finishing my 602 replica...



+1, i think we see 10 601 uppers for every 602 upper. and with the type c stocks, there's one for every 500 type Ds that come up. about as rare as a type a or b stock.
my wtb list - http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_7_129/935250_.html
Morg308
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Posted: 4/1/2012 8:28:14 AM
Originally Posted By Megaro:
Originally Posted By Morg308:
I'm not sure why I have to keep reminding people that Ekie's guide is a great resource, but it is. Right at the top of the page also. It's there for a reason guys. Great pics m1sniper.


Morg, I agree that Ekie's guide is top-notch. However, even Ekie himself states: "Since Colt did not make their own handguards and used multiple vendors, and handguards are frequently replaced on USGI rifles this is a real tough subject to pin down. I don't have dates on all of these, but do see several distinct variations. This does not come close to covering all the details, but will give you an idea." I think discussions such as in this thread are helping us retro-heads fill in the details as best as we can on a hard to pin down topic.


Oh, absolutely. I hope you don't think I was being critical, just pointing out a resource that many people who come here completely ignore. It can be kind of hard to 'interpret' on first reading, but it's pretty damn definitive IMO. Ekie rocks. Jes' sayin'.
"It was as natural as eating, and to me as necessary, and I would not have thought of eating a meal without drinking beer." - Ernest Hemingway