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somebob
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Posted: 11/12/2011 5:36:56 PM
[Last Edit: 11/12/2011 9:33:13 PM by somebob]
If I wasn't planning on making a big purchase, why did I bring a bunch of money to a gun show? I've been wanting a pre-ban A1 lower for a build I had in mind and I found one today with a bunch of cool stuff attached to it. The seller said it was purchased from an estate and didn't really know the history of it. It's a SGW lower with the stop sign logo, no forge code green tint upper receiver with no proof marks and dark lugs, very nice CMP CHROME BORE barrel, nice tight fitting drain hole L/R marked hand guards, chrome serrated BCG with black gas key that has late only (replaced?) staking, MPC marked bolt, gray buffer tube that was poorly finished so there is some black there too, dimpled rear pin, all colt FCG, Bushmaster (?) grip, black nylon stock sling with extra loop at the FSB end, nice E stock with partial cleaning kit + bottle of oil. (One rod section was missing, just enough to pop a stuck case out of the chamber?) I'm really happy with it but I have a couple questions about it. Is this the configuration SGW / Olympic Arms would have sold them new back in the 80s? (The seller thought the lower was from 1984) The slip ring is very shiny and has a brown tint to it, did military rifles come with these slip rings? I have a couple black slip rings that are pure black and not so shiny and was planning on using one of those. I want to put a nice "C MP C" barrel on that upper receiver and put my forging flash front and rear engraved upper on this lower since the colors match so closely. I also have a nice H&R style hammer and bolt catch so they might get swapped in too.



Upper that came with the rifle:

Is this an old Colt carrier? The exit hole for the retaining pin is large, but not as large as others I have seen.

This is the upper receiver and charging handle I want to use on this lower, what do you think?

The latch is a little lighter than the rest of the CH, have you seen mill marks on the top of the handle like this before? It has the ugly grinding marks around the lower edge of the "T" of the handle too. (Now that I look at this picture I might have to swap charging handles)
86HMMWV
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Posted: 11/12/2011 7:53:24 PM
Nice rifle! I love rifles assembled from surplus parts way back when. That carrier does look to be an XM16E1 carrier with a replacement gas key, and it does indeed have a larger retaining pin hole.
Hell, on a clear night, we might even get Galveston!

Georgia Texas on my mind

MoS #4
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Posted: 11/12/2011 9:08:10 PM
Cool.
Hal143
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Posted: 11/12/2011 9:48:38 PM
I'd forget all the other parts details...I'VE NEVER SEEN NOR HEARD OF An all SGW complete gun sold by Olympic. SGW stamped parts are only lowers.

Z prefix serial # would be correct for your lower. Other parts can be a mix of suplus GI and / or Olympic. SGW lowers were some of the best. Yours is forged and highly desired.

Makes sure their are NO FA parts in your lower.

Olympic sold every configutration imaginable.
Just a guess, but your rifle does not look like a complete unmolested Olympic offering.
But it's still a nice Pre-Ban quality AR. I'd leave it as is..

Hope that helps

Rocketresto
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Posted: 11/12/2011 10:05:40 PM
[Last Edit: 11/12/2011 10:06:27 PM by Rocketresto]
Originally Posted By Hal143:
I'd forget all the other parts details...I'VE NEVER SEEN NOR HEARD OF An all SGW complete gun sold by Olympic. SGW stamped parts are only lowers.

Z prefix serial # would be correct for your lower. Other parts can be a mix of suplus GI and / or Olympic. SGW lowers were some of the best. Yours is forged and highly desired.

Makes sure their are NO FA parts in your lower.

Olympic sold every configutration imaginable.
Just a guess, but your rifle does not look like a complete unmolested Olympic offering.
But it's still a nice Pre-Ban quality AR. I'd leave it as is..

Hope that helps



Thanks for your response, I guess I should have mentioned it is model "XM 15A1" and serial number is "SN X26**" So SGW / Oly Arms never would have sold complete rifles? I've done a little searching but haven't figured out how to date this lower, is there a list / database somewhere?

ETA: This is somebob, I'm over at my friend's place and accidentally hijacked his login. (woops)
grywht
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Posted: 11/12/2011 10:29:21 PM
Charging handle looks like the two 1970's vintage Colt CHs I have.
somebob
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Posted: 11/13/2011 12:56:21 AM
Originally Posted By Rocketresto:

Thanks for your response, I guess I should have mentioned it is model "XM 15A1" and serial number is "SN X26**" So SGW / Oly Arms never would have sold complete rifles? I've done a little searching but haven't figured out how to date this lower, is there a list / database somewhere?

ETA: This is somebob, I'm over at my friend's place and accidentally hijacked his login. (woops)


I made that post about the serial number, I was at my friend's computer and "forgot" I was logged in as him.

Originally Posted By grywht:
Charging handle looks like the two 1970's vintage Colt CHs I have.


One other thing I noticed about the charging handle, it is noticeably thinner on the "T" where they milled material off, the radius along the top edge is very small. Are your 70's vintage CHs like this too?
Hal143
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:12:03 AM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2011 5:35:54 AM by Hal143]
Originally Posted By Rocketresto:
Originally Posted By Hal143:
I'd forget all the other parts details...I'VE NEVER SEEN NOR HEARD OF An all SGW complete gun sold by Olympic. SGW stamped parts are only lowers.

Z prefix serial # would be correct for your lower. Other parts can be a mix of suplus GI and / or Olympic. SGW lowers were some of the best. Yours is forged and highly desired.

Makes sure their are NO FA parts in your lower.

Olympic sold every configutration imaginable.
Just a guess, but your rifle does not look like a complete unmolested Olympic offering.
But it's still a nice Pre-Ban quality AR. I'd leave it as is..

Hope that helps



Thanks for your response, I guess I should have mentioned it is model "XM 15A1" and serial number is "SN X26**" So SGW / Oly Arms never would have sold complete rifles? I've done a little searching but haven't figured out how to date this lower, is there a list / database somewhere?

ETA: This is somebob, I'm over at my friend's place and accidentally hijacked his login. (woops)


My Meaning kinda came out wrong. Of course Olympic made complete rifles, but as I recall in the early 80's they were mainly a parts supplier. Dealers would get the parts and assemble the rifles.
Kind of a Franken gun. Most old Oly's and SGW's Ive seen from that period would have a mix of GI parts and Oly/SGW parts. They may exist, but I've yet to come across a complete rifle made by SGW as-is, from the factory. They all seem to have a mix of parts. Later in the 80's I believe everything was Oly manufactured.
In 1984 I bought a semi-auto lower parts kit direct from Oly. and it came with one 601 dimpled pin, an FA selector marked C, and an FA disconnector marked C..

Except for the mis-matched color of the upper, everything else may be Oly. Parts. The uppers and lowers from SGW that I always saw were black and matched well. The grind marks on the CH was common.



Olympic used to have a pre-ban serial number list on the website. I haven't seen it in a while. Here it is as posted on their website about 10 years ago:

Z0001 Z2002 09/08/1983 08/24/1984
Z2003 Z3955 05/29/1984 02/08/1985
Z3956 Z6007 02/14/1985 12/12/1985
Z6008 Z8018 12/17/1985 09/10/1986
Z8019 Z9985 09/15/1986 03/09/1988
Z9986 Z9999 03/09/1988
W1001 W2957 03/09/1988 05/08/1989
V0001 V0716 12/02/1986 10/01/1987 These receivers were manufactured for Bushmaster
Hal143
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Posted: 11/13/2011 5:36:33 AM
BTW: Does that other upper have an engraved sight directional markings as opposed to raised ???
Fortis120
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Posted: 11/13/2011 10:05:46 AM
[Last Edit: 11/13/2011 10:07:10 AM by Fortis120]
The upper you want to use looks like a 602 with an engraved sight arrow. But wait, it has a forward assist!


Originally Posted By somebob:
If I wasn't planning on making a big purchase, why did I bring a bunch of money to a gun show? I've been wanting a pre-ban A1 lower for a build I had in mind and I found one today with a bunch of cool stuff attached to it. The seller said it was purchased from an estate and didn't really know the history of it. It's a SGW lower with the stop sign logo, no forge code green tint upper receiver with no proof marks and dark lugs, very nice CMP CHROME BORE barrel, nice tight fitting drain hole L/R marked hand guards, chrome serrated BCG with black gas key that has late only (replaced?) staking, MPC marked bolt, gray buffer tube that was poorly finished so there is some black there too, dimpled rear pin, all colt FCG, Bushmaster (?) grip, black nylon stock sling with extra loop at the FSB end, nice E stock with partial cleaning kit + bottle of oil. (One rod section was missing, just enough to pop a stuck case out of the chamber?) I'm really happy with it but I have a couple questions about it. Is this the configuration SGW / Olympic Arms would have sold them new back in the 80s? (The seller thought the lower was from 1984) The slip ring is very shiny and has a brown tint to it, did military rifles come with these slip rings? I have a couple black slip rings that are pure black and not so shiny and was planning on using one of those. I want to put a nice "C MP C" barrel on that upper receiver and put my forging flash front and rear engraved upper on this lower since the colors match so closely. I also have a nice H&R style hammer and bolt catch so they might get swapped in too.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/SGW/DSC03918.jpg
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/SGW/DSC03919.jpg
Upper that came with the rifle:
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/SGW/DSC03920.jpg
Is this an old Colt carrier? The exit hole for the retaining pin is large, but not as large as others I have seen.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/SGW/DSC03921.jpg
This is the upper receiver and charging handle I want to use on this lower, what do you think?
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/SGW/DSC03922.jpg
The latch is a little lighter than the rest of the CH, have you seen mill marks on the top of the handle like this before? It has the ugly grinding marks around the lower edge of the "T" of the handle too. (Now that I look at this picture I might have to swap charging handles)
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/SGW/DSC03925.jpg


somebob
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Posted: 11/13/2011 11:51:57 AM
Originally Posted By Fortis120:
The upper you want to use looks like a 602 with an engraved sight arrow. But wait, it has a forward assist!


Originally Posted By Hal143:
BTW: Does that other upper have an engraved sight directional markings as opposed to raised ???


It is a forging flash front and rear upper receiver that is engraved instead of raised. Here is a thread where a few people talked about them, I think there is one other one out there we know of.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=495081

My line of thinking is if the engraved upper is original finish, it would match a SGW or PWA lower nicely so I get a cool "retro" retro AR where both the upper and lower are original finish and everything matches pretty well.
somebob
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Posted: 11/13/2011 3:09:20 PM
Originally Posted By Hal143:
Originally Posted By Rocketresto:
Originally Posted By Hal143:
I'd forget all the other parts details...I'VE NEVER SEEN NOR HEARD OF An all SGW complete gun sold by Olympic. SGW stamped parts are only lowers.

Z prefix serial # would be correct for your lower. Other parts can be a mix of suplus GI and / or Olympic. SGW lowers were some of the best. Yours is forged and highly desired.

Makes sure their are NO FA parts in your lower.

Olympic sold every configutration imaginable.
Just a guess, but your rifle does not look like a complete unmolested Olympic offering.
But it's still a nice Pre-Ban quality AR. I'd leave it as is..

Hope that helps



Thanks for your response, I guess I should have mentioned it is model "XM 15A1" and serial number is "SN X26**" So SGW / Oly Arms never would have sold complete rifles? I've done a little searching but haven't figured out how to date this lower, is there a list / database somewhere?

ETA: This is somebob, I'm over at my friend's place and accidentally hijacked his login. (woops)


My Meaning kinda came out wrong. Of course Olympic made complete rifles, but as I recall in the early 80's they were mainly a parts supplier. Dealers would get the parts and assemble the rifles.
Kind of a Franken gun. Most old Oly's and SGW's Ive seen from that period would have a mix of GI parts and Oly/SGW parts. They may exist, but I've yet to come across a complete rifle made by SGW as-is, from the factory. They all seem to have a mix of parts. Later in the 80's I believe everything was Oly manufactured.
In 1984 I bought a semi-auto lower parts kit direct from Oly. and it came with one 601 dimpled pin, an FA selector marked C, and an FA disconnector marked C..

Except for the mis-matched color of the upper, everything else may be Oly. Parts. The uppers and lowers from SGW that I always saw were black and matched well. The grind marks on the CH was common.



Olympic used to have a pre-ban serial number list on the website. I haven't seen it in a while. Here it is as posted on their website about 10 years ago:

Z0001 Z2002 09/08/1983 08/24/1984
Z2003 Z3955 05/29/1984 02/08/1985
Z3956 Z6007 02/14/1985 12/12/1985
Z6008 Z8018 12/17/1985 09/10/1986
Z8019 Z9985 09/15/1986 03/09/1988
Z9986 Z9999 03/09/1988
W1001 W2957 03/09/1988 05/08/1989
V0001 V0716 12/02/1986 10/01/1987 These receivers were manufactured for Bushmaster


Thanks for your help, I remember seeing a list of their serials in the past too but didn't realize they took it down. There is a website called http://www.archive.org that takes snapshots of web sites over time and if you are lucky you can see a partial copy of a website as it used to exist. In the case of OLY serials we are lucky, try this URL: http://web.archive.org/web/20010223215015/http://www.olyarms.com/serialnumbers.html and save a local copy just in case. As it turns out, my lower was made some time between 07/02/1982 and 06/01/1983. (My serial is prefixed with a "X" not a "Z")
Hal143
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Posted: 11/13/2011 4:02:35 PM
I must have read a Z somewhere, my mistake.
Glad you found the serial number list. I tried the wayback machine before and just now. I think my anti-virus is keeping me from accessing it. Nothing ever opens there for me for some reason.
HenryKnoxFineBooks
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Posted: 11/13/2011 9:58:36 PM
This is SGW SN X18XX from early 1983. I have owned this rifle since May of 1983.



Upper detail



MPC bolt with unmarked, parked chrome lined carrier.
somebob
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Posted: 11/13/2011 10:39:58 PM
Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks:
This is SGW SN X18XX from early 1983. I have owned this rifle since May of 1983.

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/80sA1.jpg

Upper detail

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/A1upper.jpg

MPC bolt with unmarked, parked chrome lined carrier.


Thanks for posting that HenryKnoxFineBooks, I'm going to have to do a little more homework regarding these. Did you buy yours assembled? If so, do you know that SGW / Oly put it together? Have you seen a slip ring like the one on mine before? (Is it a SGW / Oly made part)
HenryKnoxFineBooks
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Posted: 11/14/2011 9:56:29 AM
[Last Edit: 11/14/2011 10:02:04 AM by HenryKnoxFineBooks]
Mine is the way it came from Oly - basically then production Colt, except for the lower. C MP CHROME BORE barrel, LM upper. Colt FCG group - which is no longer in the lower (thank you ATF). Note what is called the A2 port door is already in use by 1983. Big head forward assist. The only other guy to touch this rifle, was my FFL, who ordered it from Oly.

My guess would be that yours had been modified, as when mine was ordered, the intention was to get as close to a Vietnam era M16A1 as possible. Thanks to this forum, I later found out how close I got.

So I built a 603 clone: (Otherwise, I'd have to swap parts on the one I had).

somebob
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Posted: 11/26/2011 3:28:03 AM
[Last Edit: 11/27/2011 10:21:03 PM by somebob]
I put together the other upper, swapped the E for a D stock and the Bushmaster grip for a Colt and this is what I came up with. The color match isn't as nice as I hoped for but I like the odd mix of parts. The barrel is a CMPC SP1 barrel, sling is a NOS 1969 dated seatbelt sling that is actually pretty soft right out of the bag. (Notice the red brass stain from 41 years of sitting in a bag) I shot with the upper that came with it and it works flawlessly, haven't had a chance to shoot with this one. In the bottom pic you can see a little bump of forging flash at the opening of the magwell.


full size


full size







Morg308
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Posted: 11/26/2011 10:03:23 AM
You asked about the BC - it's definitely M16, and if it's not marked 'C' it looks to be earlier Colt. The later BC's had a tiny 'step' in them, about an inch and a half from the front that you can see in some photos, or if you examine a later one closely. You really have to look close to see it, but once you do, it cannot be unseen. Unfortunately that's what I have in my XM16E1 - once I find the correct BC for it I will be putting it in a later, more appropriate build. I think there are pics in the M16 sticky at the top, but not sure.
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Posted: 1/16/2012 2:03:06 AM
Very nice rifle.

Thanks for sharing your pics.

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Posted: 1/16/2012 2:50:02 AM
Very nice. Hope it shoots great.
compuvette
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Posted: 1/16/2012 10:25:14 AM
Very nice rife! Man, I love 603 clones. Don't know why. Just says "M16" to me.
That's C-4, dipshit. Put that back. I said a detonator! I need some dudes who speak American GD-it! He's making a f*&%ing sweater here, I'm tryin' to put Tiger Balm on this jungle's nuts.
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Posted: 1/16/2012 12:21:59 PM
[Last Edit: 1/16/2012 12:28:10 PM by MikeS1970]
Originally Posted By grywht:
Charging handle looks like the two 1970's vintage Colt CHs I have.


Yep - one of the Colt AR guys here says if the CH is nicely machined and looks pretty - it likely isn't Colt. He went through a bunch of old CHs I had and bought
the worst looking ones.

YMMV

Edited to add: The handguard rings come in a lot of shades of black, purple, grey and bronze/brown. And GI ARs often don't color match between upper and lower. YMMV
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Posted: 1/17/2012 7:05:00 AM
here is my 1st SGW ~~Palmetto ser 10XX
this one i paid $265.00 for it at a auction it was beat up pretty good
had the front handguards was held on with duct tape .



here is my second Palmetto ser# 41XX


somebob
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Posted: 1/18/2012 1:00:59 AM
Thanks for the nice comments guys

Originally Posted By ar15guy:
Very nice rifle.
Thanks for sharing your pics.

No problem, photography is another hobby of mine. I think your black H&R upper would look really nice on a lower like this, I think my upper would be a better color match some PWA lowers I have seen.

Originally Posted By Cdenmark:
Very nice. Hope it shoots great.


Short days, too much rain and snow to get out right now.

Originally Posted By compuvette:
Very nice rife! Man, I love 603 clones. Don't know why. Just says "M16" to me.


They do say "M16" to me too and the parts are much easier to find than the older ones

Originally Posted By MikeS1970:
Originally Posted By grywht:
Charging handle looks like the two 1970's vintage Colt CHs I have.


Yep - one of the Colt AR guys here says if the CH is nicely machined and looks pretty - it likely isn't Colt. He went through a bunch of old CHs I had and bought
the worst looking ones.

YMMV

Edited to add: The handguard rings come in a lot of shades of black, purple, grey and bronze/brown. And GI ARs often don't color match between upper and lower. YMMV


I like seeing the uglier parts, pictures are always appreciated. I'm helping a couple other members put together "been there done that" rifles, both will need gold / bronze tint CH, slip ring, and trigger guard. I have a WTB and WTT ad with details. (I trade nice parts for the right ugly parts)

Originally Posted By TargetShooter2:
here is my 1st SGW ~~Palmetto ser 10XX
this one i paid $265.00 for it at a auction it was beat up pretty good
had the front handguards was held on with duct tape .


here is my second Palmetto ser# 41XX


Those are both really cool, I'd like to see a purple tint upper on the 1st one. (I am seeing a purple tint in the lower)
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Posted: 1/18/2012 1:50:47 PM
Nice rifle. You definitely improved it. Now let it age a while. Meantime you have some leftovers to start another one with