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Posted: 3/26/2016 2:37:49 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
These threads are always more interesting with your participation dewatters. As you pointed out, lack of chrome in the bore and chamber was a problem in the Pacific, and soon after chrome was required. It is much cheaper to chrome then to replace a rusted barrel later on. At the same time, I understand this thread to be about having to pound stuck cases out of an XM16E1 barrel with a rod, not something I have ever to have heard to have a problem with the M1 Garand in the Pacific. If this was an issue with the M1 I would like to hear about it specifically. A good argument can be made along these lines, especially considering Frankford Arsenal’ testing in November of 1967 showing the majority of chambers to be out of spec. Culver’s negative experience was in 1967. The AR-15, M16, XM16E1 has all done well on two-way ranges for years prior to the trouble. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
These threads are always more interesting with your participation dewatters. As you pointed out, lack of chrome in the bore and chamber was a problem in the Pacific, and soon after chrome was required. It is much cheaper to chrome then to replace a rusted barrel later on. At the same time, I understand this thread to be about having to pound stuck cases out of an XM16E1 barrel with a rod, not something I have ever to have heard to have a problem with the M1 Garand in the Pacific. If this was an issue with the M1 I would like to hear about it specifically. [span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By Morg308
I personally think a lot of it was the out of spec chambers. A good argument can be made along these lines, especially considering Frankford Arsenal’ testing in November of 1967 showing the majority of chambers to be out of spec. [span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By Morg308
Culver speaks of weapons issued in '65 IIRC. Culver’s negative experience was in 1967. [span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By Morg308
Basically, I don't think the weapon was quite ready for use on the two-way range when it was issued. I also agree the Army brass wanted it to fail. The AR-15, M16, XM16E1 has all done well on two-way ranges for years prior to the trouble. Ahh...but Ekie, the M1 has primary extraction along with a thicker, tougher case and I suspect the M2 ball was lower pressure to boot. I am convinced it was a combination of shit with the M-16. Primarily ammo, lack of cleaning rods in .22, out of spec chambers and lack of chrome. I think everything but the chambers and the ammo could have been worked around by a smart troopie. If he was lucky enough to get one with a good chamber and kept it oiled, his problems would likely have been manageable. |
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Posted: 4/16/2016 2:57:57 PM EDT
[#2]
The linked video is pretty interesting from a retro stand point but I've set the link below to start with the introduction of the rifle into the combat theater on a larger scale in Vietnam as it relates to this thread topic.
https://youtu.be/u0dlkgkbPgE?t=29m54s Wes |
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Posted: 4/16/2016 3:49:57 PM EDT
[#3]
One of the problems with the 30/06 case that the 308 was meant to rectify was the thin rim.
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Posted: 4/16/2016 4:54:37 PM EDT
[#4]
My father is a devout M1 fan (with experience from the Korean War, to include use of the bayonet in the counter-attack) who transitioned to the M14 and then the M16. He shot in combat in Korea (a four-year veteran to include Task Force Smith), Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, as well as against paper targets across the east coast and Camp Perry.
When I specifically asked him of his M16 experience with indigenous soldiers as well as GIs he stated they were generally very good rifles. He equipped troops with early commercial .22 cleaning kits, and later made sure everyone had plenty of GI cleaning equipment. If you look at a lot of 101st Airborne Division photos of grunts you'll see a significant number with a bottle of LSA stuck in helmet elastic bands. I can balance the early tragi-comedy of M16 failures with my own experience and observations in southeast and northeast Asia starting in the late 70s. I saw many M16A1 rifles with allies, as well as other imported and indigenous-produced small arms throughout Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, Korea, mainland Japan, and other places (to include maritime areas of North Africa, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East). Rifles used or stored in the tropics (monsoonal) or maritime coastal nations on the Equator will rust in a heartbeat if not properly cleaned, lubed, and maintained. Period. Steel guns will rust. WCC-844 and military CFE ball powders are produced in one of two US plants. Anything specialized or exotic (to include a stick powder) are made in Canada or imported. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant still uses ball powder because it meters so well in automatic loading systems. M16A1s still soldier on in many nations, operating in some very challenging conditions. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:27:53 AM EDT
[#5]
I rememberded my password.
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Posted: 3/3/2017 7:58:58 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password.  welcome back!
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Posted: 3/3/2017 8:26:24 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
welcome back!Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
Originally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password. welcome back!+1! |
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USA
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Posted: 3/3/2017 9:03:16 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password. Thank heavens! I was worried about you. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2017 9:42:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password. Welcome back, Ekie! 
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Posted: 3/3/2017 10:26:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Welcome back!
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Posted: 3/3/2017 11:08:36 AM EDT
[#11]
Hey, Ekie! Been wondering how you were...
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Posted: 3/3/2017 5:11:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password. But did you write it down this time? 
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Posted: 3/28/2017 5:22:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password. 
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Posted: 4/4/2017 11:24:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gunnut003]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie:
I rememberded my password.  , welcome back.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 12/16/2017 4:16:01 PM EDT
[#15]
They changed the powder is what I was told not sure if that was the problem.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 12/19/2017 2:12:20 PM EDT
[#16]
I rememberded my password, too.
For the longest time, I blamed the powder, as well. But this thread, especially with the facts and subsequent testing, as well as evidenced-based analysis of similar failures on other weapon systems, lead me to believe the chamber-tolerance issue combined with the chamber-rust issue (for WHATEVER reason) was what contributed to the terrible jamming issues which cost lives. Now, we have chrome lined chambers and bores. Now, we clean our rifles (and those of us who were in AFTER Vietnam who had fanatical cleaning practices pounded into us by our Drill Instructors tend to continue those practices long after EAS) Now, we have proper buffers. Now, we know more about the system and what works and what doesn't. It WAS my opinion that arsenal testing would have been a good idea so many of these "bugs" could have been worked out before issuing rifles to troops... ...but the hard evidence that the rifle worked JUST FINE, with the non chromed chambers, with the ball powder, with the crappy magazines, and poor-to-little PM for TWO YEARS (1965-1966), only to SUDDENLY turn into horrendous jam-o-matics when widely distributed in 1967 (when production was kicked into overdrive), tells me it wasn't a testing issue so much as it was a manufacturing/production issue. Thus... ...Colt. Now, we have a hundred manufacturers of civilian AR rifles. We have people making parts of every type, style, size and shape to be compatible with this rifle. It is a far cry from what it once was. And in many ways, it is the learning and analysis done BECAUSE of those failures that the design is where it is today. There are those who would say the price was far too high. We can complain about it all we want but IT HAS BEEN PAID and we now have the M4 series in current issue for it. It's good this thread exists. Much of what I thought I knew...wasn't quite so. And what I have read here has caused me to more fully understand exactly what happened. Thank you. Panz 
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KS, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2020 2:20:56 AM EDT
[#17]
I don't remember my password, and did not write it down. But I'm still here.
Insider info for advanced M16 researchers who already have a copy of M16 Program, Hearings and Report 90.1 chaired by Richard H Ichord: Ichord donated his congressional collection of paperwork to the University of Missouri. I have been through this collection. Included are four boxes of clearly marked “M16” stuff. In this archive are hundreds if not thousands of letters still in envelopes detailing complaints regarding the performance of the “M16” rifle in Vietnam. In addition there are US Army Ordnance reports that were still classified at the time “The Black Rifle” was written. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 12:07:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie: I don't remember my password, and did not write it down. But I'm still here. Insider info for advanced M16 researchers who already have a copy of M16 Program, Hearings and Report 90.1 chaired by Richard H Ichord: Ichord donated his congressional collection of paperwork to the University of Missouri. I have been through this collection. Included are four boxes of clearly marked “M16” stuff. In this archive are hundreds if not thousands of letters still in envelopes detailing complaints regarding the performance of the “M16” rifle in Vietnam. In addition there are US Army Ordnance reports that were still classified at the time “The Black Rifle” was written. Stick around this time Ekie! Also, the whole ammo thing. I read about the rim being single vs double stamped resulting in early ammo having soft rims. |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 10:43:40 PM EDT
[#19]
The first two pages of this thread contain probably the best material I’ve ever read on Arfcom. I can’t believe I missed it until today.
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Posted: 12/24/2021 4:44:17 AM EDT
[#20]
The link to the original article no longer works.
The author, Major Richard Otis Culver Jr., passed away on Feb 24, 2014. A copy of The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam, by Dick Culver, is still available at web.archive.org Part 1 https://web.archive.org/web/20040804000623/http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/ Part 2 https://web.archive.org/web/20040804001623/http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam part 1 The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam part 2 |
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Posted: 12/24/2021 8:42:29 AM EDT
[#21]
The first inspection I ordered shortly after taking command of my platoon (3rd Plt. India Co. 3/1) in Vietnam (1970) clearly indicated many Marines had not unloaded and cleaned magzines/ammo in months. I remember one L/Cpl exclaiming, as I had him unload one particulatly foulded magazine near half full of red clay-like dirt “…Damn Lieutenant, that was one on my mag’s from Dewey Canyon…!” For reference, that operation ended on March 18, 1969…
After that, our weekly weapons on the bunk inspections had rifles field stripped and lubed, magazines disassembled, and all rounds laid out on a clean towel…in the following 6 months, my platoon had no M16 malfunctions… |
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 12/24/2021 11:48:07 AM EDT
[#22]
This is a very interesting thread. I believe many of the problems were corrected by the time I entered military service in 1972. With proper training and cleaning the M16 weapons system both military and civilian are very reliable systems. I have encounter problems only with civilian shooters who do not take care of their AR platforms. For the past 7 years I have been running a local maintenance class on the AR platforms due to the lack of maintenance by owners that have problems with their ARs. Some of the one's that I have inspected had so much carbon in the rifles I could not get the actions open!! Seized by carbon build up!! I am sure others on the forum have had the same experiences as me.
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Posted: 12/24/2021 1:35:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: The link to the original article no longer works. The author, Major Richard Otis Culver Jr., passed away on Feb 24, 2014. A copy of The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam, by Dick Culver, is still available at web.archive.org Part 1 https://web.archive.org/web/20040804000623/http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/ Part 2 https://web.archive.org/web/20040804001623/http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam part 1 The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam part 2 |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 12/24/2021 3:31:18 PM EDT
[#24]
The main reason why the weapon failed was the non chrome lined chambers and barrels troops load a round in chamber and wind up rusting the bolt into the chamber making it a night mare then pitting inside chamber aswell. No cleaning kits meant eventually the chamber rusting and pitting causing the weapon to fire once then gun is seized not allowing another round in or to be chambered.
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Posted: 12/24/2021 10:07:59 PM EDT
[#25]
After reading through all of this post, I have to say this has been one of the most interesting reads I have had in a while on the subject. Not that I would describe myself as any historian or expert on this subject, Would I be correct to sum the entire affair on this subject as multiple points that led to a perfect storm?
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Posted: 12/24/2021 10:43:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gamma762]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By greasysnipe: After reading through all of this post, I have to say this has been one of the most interesting reads I have had in a while on the subject. Not that I would describe myself as any historian or expert on this subject, Would I be correct to sum the entire affair on this subject as multiple points that led to a perfect storm? IMHO, no. I'd call it a mountain range of molehills to obfuscate the fact that a bunch of defective rifles were delivered, put into service and got people killed. This was known and corrected, as the story about someone showing up at a combat unit with a chamber gauge and deadlining rifles describes. It's not as if we can't recreate the old configurations, there just aren't the severe problems from an edgewater buffer or anything else. If you have a particular rifle that has multiple case head separations and failures to extract... its not exactly rocket surgery. |
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Posted: 7/18/2023 1:46:31 AM EDT
[#27]
Can I post to an old thread like this?
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MO, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2023 9:41:05 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie: Can I post to an old thread like this? Apparently RCA |
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Posted: 7/18/2023 9:55:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: I am late in the game here as far as information goes I suppose, but I discovered today that evidence points to the XM16E1 being the rifle that got many Marines killed on Hill 881 in early 1967, not the 604 or M16. These rifles had forward assists, but no chrome chambers (obviously). However, I am confused as to why, since this was the same rifle used the US Army starting in 1965 at Ia Drang, the Marines were the first to have the major problems with the rifle? Why did the Army not have problems with it? By the way there is a great read about first hand experience with the early XM16E1 problems Edited because the original link is gone. Replacement links: here and here Read About Face by Col Hackworth, he was Army and he had trouble with the M16. |
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Posted: 7/18/2023 11:12:17 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie: Can I post to an old thread like this? You can do whatever you want in this forum. I will always appreciate the work you put into this forum when it first started. |
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Posted: 7/19/2023 1:33:37 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie: Can I post to an old thread like this? Welcome back. You have always been a source of great info. |
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Posted: 7/19/2023 1:49:10 AM EDT
[#32]
I have nothing to add on this other than my dad was in Germany during the war and he was issued an m14.
He only remembers one thing about the m14 and was his NCO and command staff told him that if anyone in his platoon loses their rifle, they will be docked exactly 62 dollars from their pay.  This was 1966. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 7/21/2023 12:45:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ekie: Can I post to an old thread like this? Nice to see you back. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 7/22/2023 1:01:50 PM EDT
[#34]
FWIW my father was in VN for his tour starting in 7/71...he was on the ground with his M16 every day. He told me it was a fine rifle by this time (1971) and he had no major problems with it. He did say he needed to keep it as dry as he could, and daily maintenance was performed in the field if possible to do so. His engagement distances were never further than 100yds or so.
I served with the A2 as my issue rifle and I also never experienced a major problem with it. The design is solid imho. |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 3:37:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TJRoush: FWIW my father was in VN for his tour starting in 7/71...he was on the ground with his M16 every day. He told me it was a fine rifle by this time (1971) and he had no major problems with it. He did say he needed to keep it as dry as he could, and daily maintenance was performed in the field if possible to do so. His engagement distances were never further than 100yds or so. I served with the A2 as my issue rifle and I also never experienced a major problem with it. The design is solid imho. I got there a few months after your father and my experience mirrors his. Except I did a year in Alaska after getting back, using the platform at well below zero thru the winter months. The only problems I saw the whole time were magazine related except for a buddy's Hydramatic that developed trigger problems. He took it to the arms room and came back with a brand spankin' new Harrington & Richardson, the lucky bastidge. I remain jealous to this day. Now I will say by that time it was beat into our skulls to clean the bejeezus out of our rifles at each and every opportunity, so we had that going for us, but whatever combination of proper cleaning equipment, motivation to clean, different ammunition, different buffers, chrome pieces/parts and/or quality control was well in hand and had the weapons working by that time. Certainly those should have been done years earlier and of course never should have happened in the first place and nobody's ass got hung for that failure of leadership, unfortunately. They should have been. |
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Posted: 7/24/2023 7:16:51 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By greasysnipe: After reading through all of this post, I have to say this has been one of the most interesting reads I have had in a while on the subject. Not that I would describe myself as any historian or expert on this subject, Would I be correct to sum the entire affair on this subject as multiple points that led to a perfect storm? Probably. It can be summed up by rushing into service, short cuts, screwups by the higher ups, and not enough training. Just my humble opinion. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/26/2023 8:11:59 PM EDT
[#37]
They changed the powder , they said you don`t have to clean them , and in that climate that led to a lot of rifles that would stop working .
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Posted: 7/27/2023 8:25:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: garr]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Oldgold: Probably. It can be summed up by rushing into service, short cuts, screwups by the higher ups, and not enough training. Just my humble opinion. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Oldgold: Originally Posted By greasysnipe: After reading through all of this post, I have to say this has been one of the most interesting reads I have had in a while on the subject. Not that I would describe myself as any historian or expert on this subject, Would I be correct to sum the entire affair on this subject as multiple points that led to a perfect storm? Probably. It can be summed up by rushing into service, short cuts, screwups by the higher ups, and not enough training. Just my humble opinion. After reading the Ichord report, the words boarders on "criminal negligence" stick with me. Big army wanted the M14 at all cost & wrecking the M16 with a little cost cutting (no chrome + using old ball powder) or making improvements (going from 1/14 to 1/12 twist) helped achieve that goal, they didn't give a rats ass how many Soldiers & Marines died to get what they wanted, I hope the decision makers are burning in Hell. |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 8:32:53 AM EDT
[#39]
Worse yet. Civilians at RIA received cash awards for "cost cutting initiatives" such as removing the chrome, etc....
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Posted: 7/27/2023 9:07:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AmericanSheepDog]
[#40]
This thread ultimately took a turn from the original topic and became a similar discussion as is being had here.
I was one of the vocal ones coming out on one side of the argument and i see that the other side of the argument is also present in this thread 👀 lol My belief based on my reading/research can be summarized by what I said there (the last response here): Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: who cares what company made the stock, grips, forend, etc.. damn thing ran like a sewing machine and evolved into what we have today.. Not at first. It had problems with chamber corrosion, dirty ammo & probably got more than one guy killed because of it. Partially true. “At first” the 601 was in the field and SF and SEALS, etc LOVED them. The 601 had no chrome bore and chamber and I haven't seen any reports of corroded bores and chambers, or over-sped actions from that era. Then the Army had to go and mess with the TDP and not issue cleaning kits, leading to the issue you're describing. Not to mention the fact those guys in 1964-1966 with XM16E1s with these problems were often originally trained on the M14. It was a combination of circumstances that lead to a bad situation. Unmentioned issues in that particular post - tight chambers, over-sped actions due to the change in powder, .gov red tape and the forward assist debacle, etc., etc. It all stacked up. 1964-1966, the weapon definitely earned the “X” (Experimental) in “XM” as it was still very much a prototype, not a finalized design (though again, the 1959-1963 601s were very good rifles, and the early reports support that). |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 9:45:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: The link to the original article no longer works. The author, Major Richard Otis Culver Jr., passed away on Feb 24, 2014. A copy of The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam, by Dick Culver, is still available at web.archive.org Part 1 https://web.archive.org/web/20040804000623/http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/ Part 2 https://web.archive.org/web/20040804001623/http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam part 1 The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam part 2 And also what happened to dewatters? He hasn't been here since 2019. 
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Posted: 7/27/2023 1:12:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Merlin: The Gunzone link for the AR-15 Timeline is also dead and Gunzone doesn't have it anymore. Anyone have a good link to the article? And also what happened to dewatters? He hasn't been here since 2019. It's on LooseRounds Side note: I believe the guy who used to run Loose Rounds sold it and now hosts his content at https://scatteredshots.com/ |
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Posted: 7/27/2023 1:30:20 PM EDT
[#43]
If you prefer the Internet Archive, the timeline is there too but you have to page through, and it's not a fast site: https://web.archive.org/web/20120204060227/www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html
I couldn't find Watters' article on the ball powder controversy anywhere else though: https://web.archive.org/web/20050204115945/http://www.thegunzone.com/556prop.html |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 7/28/2023 12:05:27 PM EDT
[#44]
I see a lot of mention of experiences from Army and Marines, Air Force probably had the largest number of the early M16s, see no mention re the Air Force operating in SE Asia.
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Posted: 7/30/2023 3:44:07 PM EDT
[#45]
The Culver "Saga of the M16" articles are live at the re-engineered Culver website, Jouster 2:
Jouster 2, the resurrected Culver's Shooting Page Saga of the M16, Part 1 Saga Part 2 |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/19/2023 9:58:30 PM EDT
[#46]
This is great stuff. Anyone have a link to the report on chamber sizes from Frankford Arsenal?
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