Page three es belong to I

Originally Posted By AFSOC_COP: Yup, Ithaca's were reported to be used as well as Model 12s and 870s. Here's my Ithaca 37: i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Shotguns/DCP_1856.jpg Now when I was stationed in Italy back in the late 80s, we also used Winchester 1200s that were certainly old enough ...and beat enough, to have been around during the Vietnam war as well.  Here's a pic I lifted from Gunbroker that depicts what we were carrying. The only thing that is different was we had a rear sling swivel and the trench gun heat shield you see on the old 1897 Winchester guns. i137.photobucket.com/albums/q236/USMCGruntUSAFCATM/Firearms/Shotguns/Winchester1200.jpg

NIIICCCEE!!!!

Update: Sling Swivels

Glad to see so much retro shotty goodness in this thread! Unfortunately this is adding to my already impossible firearm shopping list.

I’ve got a spare stock bolt to finish my “Tropic Thunder Special”, and the barrel facer is on order with a 2-4 week delay.

Since I can’t do much but rub oil on the stock at this point, I’ll post what I know about sling swivels.

Almost all the pics I’ve seen of military guns have a longer than usual lug that attaches the barrel to the mag tub, and the sling swivel is attached to that. I don’t have a closeup, but I expect it’s a rivet rather than a screw.

Compare the length of the lug on the first photo of this thread:



and on the other original military guns people have posted above, with the short lug on my civilian model:



You can see the difference. It probably wouldn’t be too hard to make a lug extension and have someone weld it to the barrel, but fortunately I found this picture:



Judging by this, I believe at least some of the militarized shotguns used in VN had a front sling swivel of this type. This is the only photo I’ve found, but the actual sling attachment is identical to the rear sling attachment from the original military stocks I have, and it’s a type I haven’t seen anywhere else (it’s rather crudely made from bar stock).

I think I have lined up a machinist to make a short run of these parts. I’m still working out the details with him, but if it works out I will post his info here so anyone else who wants to make one of these can get the front sling swivel.

That’s the only part that isn’t currently available from an on-line vendor, so if this works out, the faux-77E will be an easy project for anyone who wants to try something different (or who, like me, ran out of money making retro M16 clones!).

This thread is killing me.  How many times have I seen old Win model 12s for $200, Ithacas for 200 and Stevens/Savages for $60-$100. Most of those prices are long gone now. Still hope for the Stevens to be purchased cheap.  I have 2 Ithaca hunting shotguns but I would not turn them into a project, they are shooters. Nice work on these shotguns you have inspired me.
I am looking for a Stevens/ Savage or Springfield for 100.

Malikovski   check PM's

BIG thanks to jjtroutbum. He put me on to a possible source for original front sling swivels.

It's hard to tell if these are the right parts, but the pic on the merchant's site looks right:



I ordered a sample. They are backlogged and said ten days at least until they ship. I'll report as soon as I have them in hand...

YER KILLIN ME...I GOTSTA HAVE ME ONE A DEM THERE SLINGY THINGS.
.

Originally Posted By imdBman: How many times have I seen old Win model 12s for $200, Ithacas for 200 and Stevens/Savages for $60-$100. Most of those prices are long gone now...

I just bought a 1949 Ithaca 37 two weeks ago, for $199...12ga 24" barrel...I also got a spare barrel off GB for ~$50 and shortened it to 20" for deer...  

There is a slight design problem on these shotguns. The buttstock is bolted to trigger guard which is pot metal or what is commonlly called zinc castings. If dropped on buttstock they often break off at rear of trigger guard. For years you couldn't get a casting anywhere but recently I saw an add that I think but, not positive, Sarco is having them made now. this shotgun was also called Smith&Wesson model 916. When I retired from military I gave away 3 or 4 kits of these guns I'd collected because owners didn't want them back if they couldn't be fixed. These guns work real well if not broken.

Here's my retro scattergun.  My father gave me this Winchester when I was 14.....meaning I've had it for 40 years.  I had it reparked about 30 years ago and I shutter to think how much I've shot it.  I've replaced most all the small internals over time.  Even used it for Cowboy Action Shooting for a few years.

Originally Posted By imdBman: This thread is killing me.  How many times have I seen old Win model 12s for $200, Ithacas for 200 and Stevens/Savages for $60-$100. Most of those prices are long gone now. Still hope for the Stevens to be purchased cheap.  I have 2 Ithaca hunting shotguns but I would not turn them into a project, they are shooters. Nice work on these shotguns you have inspired me. I am looking for a Stevens/ Savage or Springfield for 100.

Not mine...

www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=108851083

Originally Posted By jtb0311: Originally Posted By imdBman: This thread is killing me.  How many times have I seen old Win model 12s for $200, Ithacas for 200 and Stevens/Savages for $60-$100. Most of those prices are long gone now. Still hope for the Stevens to be purchased cheap.  I have 2 Ithaca hunting shotguns but I would not turn them into a project, they are shooters. Nice work on these shotguns you have inspired me. I am looking for a Stevens/ Savage or Springfield for 100. Not mine... www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=108851083

Well, I tried to get this, but someone outbid me with a "buy it now".

Oh well,  maybe next time.  I'll continue to look around at the pawn shops and elsewhere.

Originally Posted By imdBman: Originally Posted By JJREA: i343.photobucket.com/albums/o475/NomadABPos/102_2772.jpg?t=1219854390 I wonder if they ever used them with the longer barrels?  I think I've seen a pic in WWII that they did for foraging during the bulge or something.   I don't know about the longer barrels but I passed a few military Ithacas in the past that I wish I had purchased. One was a factory 8 shot with oiled wood for $225. Now worth 400+.

+1

I passed on a military gun - 8 shot plain reciever - with aftermarket furniture for $250 just last year.

Dang it, another project.

Ran the gun shop trap line this morning and a Stevens M77M followed me home for $135 plus tax.  Carried it out to the range this aft and it banged out a magazine full of each of low and high brass 2 & 3/4" and four rounds of 3" magnum no problemo senor!  Dang light shotguns get yer attention with hot loads don't they?

Saftey is in the trigger guard.  It does have a 3" chamber and the wood is walnut, but I think after it's stripped and refinished with boiled linseed oil, and the barrel whacked off, it will do.  "T" vented recoil pad.  The forearm is of the "extended" design, but it does have the circular grooves as you'd expect and it should be a simple matter to whack the extended end off when I strip the varnish.  Blue turning to brown uniformly and I think I'll leave that alone.  

Now if only Malikovski and/or jjtroutbum will reveal their source of sling swivels......please please pretty please?

The same shop had several more, but they were either vent rib guns or had the top safety.  They're out there, go gettum!

Not trying to keep the swivel source secret, I was just going to wait until I had one and knew it was the correct product before I posted the details. Several people have asked, so for those who want to go ahead and order them, they are here:

http://www.gun-parts.com/accessories/

Half way down the page on the left column.

The original military buttstocks are at Numrich. Just look under Stevens 77E. Numrich also has most of the spares you might need, springs and so on. The Stevens 77 and Savage 67 models were all very similar, so check all the series for both those guns. I found some parts under 67B that worked fine for me. You can get a new bead sight from Numrich as well.

The only thing I haven't found is a source of red buttpads with the T vents, although I have no reason to believe ALL the military shotguns had them.

If anyone comes accross one, please post the source here.

I'm waiting a couple weeks on the sling swivel and 2-6 weeks on the barrel facer, so I won't have much to report for a while. The stock took the tung oil very nicely, but now it's waiting time...

Originally Posted By Malikovski: I'm waiting a couple weeks on the sling swivel and 2-6 weeks on the barrel facer...

What size bushing did you order for the facing tool??? Doesn't really matter; you can get brass bushings or even turn down brass pipe plugs to the right diameter...The ID is .500"...The OD will vary as to where you whack off the barrel...I just bought a bunch of pipe plugs and turn one down for the next barrel...  

I used calipers to checked the ID, and ordered the 0.725" bushing...if memory serves. The facing tool is 1" diameter.

I don't have a lathe, so I'm going to have to rig something with my drill press and some creative clamping

Originally Posted By Malikovski: I used calipers to checked the ID, and ordered the 0.725" bushing...if memory serves. The facing tool is 1" diameter.

.940" diameter actually...8 flutes...3/8" shank...  

Made by Clymer; excellent workmanship.

It's a shame the family sold the business...   They used to have several tutorials on their old web site on how to use their chambering reamers...How to cut dovetails...lots of stuff...All gone...  

Heres a pic of my clone
(I also based mine off the original pic on Pg1)

I used a Stevens M77C, military rear sling swivel & made my own front one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/jeepingpw/m77c.jpg

I also found this pic, but it didn't copy well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/jeepingpw/M77doc.jpg

In this book, it stated that they had 20" barrels & that the early models had the band front sling swivel. The later ones were built with the bottom rib extended & sling swivel attached to it.

Originally Posted By jeepingpw: Heres a pic of my clone (I also based mine off the original pic on Pg1) I used a Stevens M77C, military rear sling swivel & made my own front one. img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/jeepingpw/m77c.jpg I also found this pic, but it didn't copy well. img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/jeepingpw/M77doc.jpg In this book, it stated that they had 20" barrels & that the early models had the band front sling swivel. The later ones were built with the bottom rib extended & sling swivel attached to it.

That looks great!!

Lookee what I found:



A kind gentleman on th FAL Files directed me to several print references for the 77E in military service, and also mentioned this publication. One Google search and five minutes later I had one ordered. I actually have two ordered to avoid a nasty "minimum order charge."

They are available here for $9.

This got me thinking, there must be a technical manual as well. Has anyone here made FOIA requests before?

Originally Posted By Malikovski: This got me thinking, there must be a technical manual as well. Has anyone here made FOIA requests before?

It would be best to try and find the manual number (if there is one) or at least the title before trying to submit an FOIA request.  FOIA officers tend to get relatively cranky if you can't give them detailed enough information (and then its a crapshoot of whether they'll make it difficult or just do it).  Furthermore, the US Army has been the worst in my experience of getting back to me, and you'd likely spend some time either trying to figure out what the relevant command to have the material would be or letting them do it on their end.  With how long a manual might be, you'd probably have to be prepared to pay for at least the reproduction, if not search time depending on who you make the submission to.  If you think a USAF command might have the manual I'd suggest starting there (USAF gives the first 100 pages and 2 hours of search time free).

For anyone building a Remington 870 retro, while I was looking for a Rem. rifle stock on ebay I saw someone has an 870 stock and 8 forearms listed, the stock has what appears to be a rack number painted on it and what looks like an oil finish with "proper" handling marks, so it might be a real-deal mil one.  

I'm not sure about the rules of posting a link to an ebay item, so just search for:

walnut stock for 870

*for the record, the ebay listing is *not* mine and I'm not in any way trying to sell something, I'm just pointing out something I found that a retro shotgun builder might be interested in, if this post violates the rules then by all means delete it or inform me and I'll delete it.

Keep looking. I am. Found a Springfield for 180. Too Much!
ETA;Keeping this alive.

Well I hope someone here got the 67 on GB that sold for $29 this weekend. Stock was cracked, but that doesn't matter for our purposes.

I finally figured out the lifter issue on mine. There is a notch in the plate that rides under the bolt, that catches the lifter pawl when it's all the way back. When you then slide the bolt closed, it kicks the lifter up for a moment before pushing it back down again. Problem is, mine is a full 1/16" away from the pawl engaging the notch.

With that much of a margin, I think this gun is a real hodge-podge of parts and who knows what else could be off. I've ordered a set of headspace gauges from Clymer and I'm going to check that before putting anything else into this.

I've now got two bolts (thanks to a kind donation from a member here). If one of those headspaces correctly, it will not be hard to adjust the notch to catch the pawl correctly.

I also received the military manuals. Here's a teaser that confirms our suspicions about the forward sling swivel:



You can order these manuals here for $9 plus S&H, which is a bit high, I'll warn you.

I ended up with two of these to avoid a "minimum order charge", so if anyone is interested in one, PM me.

It's an interesting manual, although it's only field maintenance, so it's doesn't get into real depth on repair, and doesn't touch on use either. If anyone's got those manuals, I'd be very interested in PDF'ing them and making them available.

You guys are "killing me"....well my bank account anyways...with all this retro stuff, M1s (3), M14s (4), XM16E1, M16A1, XM177E2, a Robinson M96 Recon (my "STONER" clone), and now SHOTGUNS! What in the World?!

Over the 35 + years I've been shooting/collecting US military weapons I've owned several shotguns, Stevens 520-30 Trench gun, Rem 870 riot, and several Ithaca M37s both 18" and 20" versions. Of course being the moron I was back in the day (hopefully I've gotten better:-) I no longer own any of those...DOH!

About 5 years ago I found a 18" parkerized Ithaca M37 in a pawn shop, fortunately I had the cash, and it came home with me. The only things wrong was the bead was missing on the barrel, and the receiver had that awful "duck hunting" scene on both sides...yuch. She was ex-NM State Police, well used, but functioned ok. A couple years later I mentioned the M37 to a friend, and he said he had a complete parts kit for one, minus the receiver, and would I be interested? Like.....duh.....YEAH!

So I bought the parts kit, it came with the rifle sighted barrel, so I swapped out the barrels and had me a nice little riot gun. There's a famous 'Nam picure of Navy SEALS dismounting from a small boat, one of them is carrying an M37, I wanted my M37 to replicate that one (you know.....the "retro" thing). But it bugged me that mine had the duck scene on the receiver, and I needed a bead for the proper barrel. So I just put it on the back burner for a few years until you TROUBLE MAKERS came out with this retro shotgun thread!

So last week with too much time on my hands I started cruising the auction sights, and came across a 8-shot, 20" barreled Ithaca riot gun with a PLAIN receiver - YES! I bought it - Mongo Happy! The 8-shot Ithaca is my favorite shotgun of all times. So here's the plan:

Put the 18" barrel on the plain receiver for my "retro" shotgun, and put the 8-shot, 20" front end on the "engraved" receiver, for my home defense/SHTF shotgun......the BEST of both worlds!!

Thank you all, for lighting a fire under my butt, and getting me motivated to finish off my retro Ithaca. On the other hand you realize you all, set my 601 project back several months....DOH!

Semper Fi
Az Deuce    

Originally Posted By AzDeuce: You guys are "killing me"....well my bank account anyways...

You're helping the economy...  

...And me, too...I just got in an Eliason sight for a 1911 rib project that one of the more eccentric members of this forum [coff *VAAR* coff] got me re-interested in...The parts kit + frame has been sitting for 4 years, waiting for a final finish...so I dug out my 38-45 Clerke barrel, and test fitted it...works good...  

...But my reloading dies are missing...    I loaned them out to a buddy years ago...and they won't be coming back..."real estate" deal...so I'll be helping the economy some more...or at least Huntington Tool & Die...  

Originally Posted By Malikovski: You can order these manuals here for $9 plus S&H, which is a bit high, I'll warn you. I ended up with two of these to avoid a "minimum order charge", so if anyone is interested in one, PM me.

PM sent about your extra manual

I want.....NEED....another stimulas check!

Az Deuce

Here is a picture of my retro military shotgun.  Its a U.S. Property marked Remington 870 Wingmaster. I carried one just like it , and a FN Hi Power in El Salvador.  

I carried a 609 and a Hi Power.  Who were you attached to and when were you there?  

Oops!  My wife is logged in.

This is uxb...  

Ya gotta admit, she has a cool sig line...

Originally Posted By VAAR: Ya gotta admit, she has a cool sig line...

Is there a pic of her in the Women's Forum???  

Originally Posted By Malikovski: Well I hope someone here got the 67 on GB that sold for $29 this weekend. Stock was cracked, but that doesn't matter for our purposes.

That was me.  I think the broken stock and holes in the receiver scared everyone away.  Both will be easily taken care of.  

I already have a few replacement stocks from Numrich.  One has a rack number on it, if anyone is interested in seeing how/where it was painted on.  

Hi UBX, I was in and out of Honduras and El Salvador during 1980-1989 (O.G.A. ). Saw your CONTRA pictures and they caused me to take  a walk down memory lane. Thanks for your service.

Regards, Joescuba

Originally Posted By Frostbite: One has a rack number on it, if anyone is interested in seeing how/where it was painted on.

YES. Please post a pic if you can. I've got three from them, but all appear unissued.

Hi UBX, I was in and out of Honduras and El Salvador during 1980-1989 (O.G.A. ). Saw your CONTRA pictures and they caused me to take a walk down memory lane. Thanks for your service. Regards, Joescuba

And thanks for yours, too.  

The stocks I received have the "been there, done that" look.

My start for my retro shotgun project.

Found a Springfield model 67F at a local pawn shop in their backroom...out the door for $100.  Ordered 2 of the Vietnam era buttstocks with swivels from e-gunparts.com.  They are pretty dirty and the swivels are a little rusted, but I think they clean up OK.  Ordered a new barrel sling attachment.

Anyway, a few pics...















Next step will be to shorten the barrel, and then..., and then....

Man those stocks are SHORT! Must have been made for the Vietnamese Troops. I'd keep the American civilian stock - strip the finish, install the GI sling swivel and be done with it. But then I like long buttstocks as I'm 6'4" tall.

Semper Fi
Az Deuce

5'8" here...fits me just fine!

I bet it's about A1 length, although I haven't pulled out an A1 rifle to check.

subscribed

Originally Posted By Frostbite: The stocks I received have the "been there, done that" look. farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/2860734821_80c78b16b7.jpg farm4.static.flickr.com/3227/2861562222_64c0b9acb8.jpg farm4.static.flickr.com/3212/2860735171_87b4dedcfe.jpg

Did they every paint the 77E stocks black?  Back in 1980 a large gun shop in N.C. had quiet a few 77Es and Wingmasters that had been given to the state in the late 70s by the U.S. gov't.   If I remember correctly these weapons came from the Higway Patrol and the 77Es all had short black stocks.  I paid $99.00 for my Wingmaster and I think the 77Es went for $59.00.  I just love military shotguns.  Keep those retro pictures coming.  

Cheers , Joescuba






 

Originally Posted By Joescuba: Did they every paint the 77E stocks black?  Back in 1980 a large gun shop in N.C. had quiet a few 77Es and Wingmasters that had been given to the state in the late 70s by the U.S. gov't.   If I remember correctly these weapons came from the Higway Patrol and the 77Es all had short black stocks.  I paid $99.00 for my Wingmaster and I think the 77Es went for $59.00.  I just love military shotguns.  Keep those retro pictures coming.   Cheers , Joescuba

All the stocks I've seen have been a mottled black/wood grain. It appears they were treated with something dark. It doesn't seem to be stain. It almost seems to be a layer on top of the wood where it's still on mine.

It possible that the mottling is wear, and that the stocks start all black, and then areas of black wear off. The manual I bought says to treat the stock with linseed, but I didn't notice any mention of what it was treated with the begin with. Creosote?

Anyway, it could be that a new stock is completely black, but it's only a guess.

Originally Posted By Malikovski: Not trying to keep the swivel source secret, I was just going to wait until I had one and knew it was the correct product before I posted the details. Several people have asked, so for those who want to go ahead and order them, they are here: Sling swiivel assemblies Half way down the page on the left column.

I ordered 2 sets of these sling swivel assemblies and the price went from $10 to $15 per set.  I'm guessing alot of us are purchasing these as he said he is about a week to 10 days behind on shipping.  No problem...I'll just continue on with my project.

Has anybody found a source for the "T vent" recoil pad that will properly fit on the Vietnam era buttstocks yet??

Originally Posted By ar15guy: Has anybody found a source for the "T vent" recoil pad that will properly fit on the Vietnam era buttstocks yet??

Not that I know of. That's the last part on the list. If we could find those, all the parts needed except the donor gun would be in stock at a vendor. Cost for the whole project would be as little as $150.

I've looked through some buttpads for sale on various sites, but I've yet to find one with the T vents.

I don't know a thing about shotgun buttpads...are these things in standard sizes? If so, what size would fit the military stocks?

Originally Posted By imdBman: Keep looking. I am. Found a Springfield for 180. Too Much! ETA;Keeping this alive.

 

I found two Ithaca 37s at Cabela's in Wheeling, WV. last week.  $295 and $350 respectively.  Too much, so I passed.

Originally Posted By Joescuba: Here is a picture of my retro military shotgun.  Its a U.S. Property marked Remington 870 Wingmaster. I carried one just like it , and a FN Hi Power in El Salvador.   i34.tinypic.com/25aqas5.jpg i38.tinypic.com/2i0qhx1.jpg

Hey Joe, you have all the cool stuff!!!!  You deserve it though.  Can you expand on how you feel on the valuability of a shotgun for combat purposes?  I would imagine it's not the optimum but I was just wondering what you thought of it.  

That is one sweet pic!