Edited due to influence of pain meds for kidney stone.  

Note: Don't take pain meds and attempt to post anything legible.

Originally Posted By Tweak: i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/Troubleshooting/M1620Gren.jpg

are there any companys making reproduction grenade retention springs?  I took a quick look over at Total Silence, hoping to see one there, but came up short (perhaps i need to look again?)

Originally Posted By alex_all_alone: Originally Posted By Tweak: i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/Troubleshooting/M1620Gren.jpg are there any companys making reproduction grenade retention springs?  I took a quick look over at Total Silence, hoping to see one there, but came up short (perhaps i need to look again?)

Last I knew you could get them from SARCO for like $5.

Updated barrel info.

Well, while I was at it went ahead and made a bunch or corrections, added new info, and a few more pictures.  Many thanks to wpnsman for the help.

Edition III is up.  Now includes a USGI serial number data base.

Need some help on US Air Force rifles, especially serial numbers.  

ETA:

Got data on Air Force serial numbers (thanks wpnsman), can't find any with serial numbers above 4,243,XXX though.

I thought I would post this info in all of the more recent “Retro Discussions” that I could find in the hopes that I may help those who are looking for info, and it may help to cut down on duplicate posts.

GENERAL RETRO PICTURES
RETRO PICTURE THREAD #2!

Lets see some oldies!


TECHNICAL AND HISTORICAL GUIDES ON RETRO MODELS
COLT'S USGI M16 SERIES VARIATION GUIDE EDITION III

COLT SMG, COMMANDO, AND CARBINE VARIATIONS GUIDE

LOWER RECEIVER & MAG FLOORPLATE ROLLMARKS, LOGOS AND MARKINGS


XM177 RETRO BUILDS
WHO MAKES THE MOST AUTHENTIC XM-177E2 REPLICA PARTS ?

WHO ALL IS ACTIVELY BUILDING AN XM177 CLONE?

XM177E2 (?) IMAGE FROM SON TAY RAID FOR THE RETRO INTERESTED

So..you are thinking of a retro build...PICS and information


RETRO OPTICS
Armson OEGs for Retro-rifles

RETRO RIFLES/CARBINES OPTICS PIC THREAD


This is by no means all of the topics that are out there, but I think that these topics are the most extensive and have most of the bases covered. If you do a search for “Retro” or “XM177” you will find that there are a few more out there.

Hope this helps,
“Capt Richardson”

tag - thanks for all the great info

tag

Anyone own or have a pic of the sling that came on the model 01.  My understanding is that it was made by Colt.  I'm told it was green cotton/canvas.  My 1964 SP1 has such a sling but it is BLACK.

DAMN Ekie :    you know your SHT !!!! ,   I just looked through your whole thread , impressive !!

P.S.   how hard was it for you to find the original green triangle handguards ? , i have a butt & PG , and i am looking for a set

The handguards are the hardest parts of the furniture to find probably since they tend to break most easily.  ONE time I was able to buy a set separetly.

Originally Posted By KurtVF: Anyone own or have a pic of the sling that came on the model 01.  My understanding is that it was made by Colt.  I'm told it was green cotton/canvas.  My 1964 SP1 has such a sling but it is BLACK.

Am still looking for one of those.......

Originally Posted By buzgun: P.S.   how hard was it for you to find the original green triangle handguards ? , i have a butt & PG , and i am looking for a set

Model 01 Buttstocks and grips are not too hard to find, guards are rare, they bust.  Never found a good set, my right ones has a hole in it, and the left one is painted black.

Originally Posted By KurtVF: The handguards are the hardest parts of the furniture to find probably since they tend to break most easily.

Exactly.

Originally Posted By KurtVF: ONE time I was able to buy a set separetly.

Lucky you!

I started making up some replicas(Colt 01 slings) from BAR slings for myself and John Feamster but then got sidelined with my job and going on active duty etc.  I have to find someone who can sew the hook on with the proper thick thread and they whoul be done.  I havn't heard from John for quite a while but he had quite an intrest in the retro stuff.  Is there a market for such a thing??

Originally Posted By KurtVF: I started making up some replicas(Colt 01 slings) from BAR slings for myself and John Feamster but then got sidelined with my job and going on active duty etc.  I have to find someone who can sew the hook on with the proper thick thread and they whoul be done.  I havn't heard from John for quite a while but he had quite an intrest in the retro stuff.  Is there a market for such a thing??

John is still into that stuff.

I would be surprised if there was a market big enough for repro 601 slings.

Barrel info updated, and thanks for the pic xcibes.

Thanks Ekie

Found this on page 26 of the May issue of SMALL ARMS REVIEW:

“This letter is dated February 2, 1973, and was an internal Colt memorandum for B. Northrop to W.H. Craven.  I corrected some spelling, but it is accurately reproduced below.”

“In December of 1960 we started roll marking AR15 rifles.  The following is a general breakdown by serial number of major types:
Model 03, 04, SMG, Model 613 and Lebanon rifles.”

Starting S/N 101 through 14,484.  For General Curtis LeMay (AR15)
14,500 through 14,916 for S.A.W.S. Contract (AR15)
15,000 through 99,999 for Air Force – Model 04
100,000 through 199,999 for Army - Model 03
200,000 through 202,426 for British Contract
202,447 through 379,353 for Air Force – Model 03
400,000 through 407,297 for Air Force – Model 03
500,001 through 701,100 for Army – Model 04
703,278 through 749,999 for Army – Model  04
750,000 through 752,443 for Heavy Barrel Assault
760,001 through 899,999 for Army – Model 03
900,000 through 909,999 for Commando SMG
910,000 through 1,999,999 for Army – Model  03
4,000,001 through 4,060,000 for Air Force-  Model 04
4,060,001 through 4,221,800 for Army - Model 03
4,221,801 through 4.285,400 for Air Force - Model 04
4,285,401 through 4,521,000 for Army - Model  03
4,521,001 through 4,521,850 for Air Force – Model 04
4,521,851 through 4,638, 400 for Army – Model 03
4,638,401 through  4,643,400 Model 613 for Malaysia (5000)
4,643,401 through  4,701,400 for Army - Model 03
4,701,401 through 4,701,900 for Model 613 Commando (500)
4,781,001 through 4,844,400 for Army – Model 03
4,844,401 thruogh 4,849,400 Model 613 for Taiwan (5000)
4,849,401 through 4,926,000 for Army – Model 03
4,926,001 through 4,928,000 Model 613 for Philippines (2000)
4,928,000 through 4,936,400 Model 03 Army

Serial numbers 2,000,000 – 2,999,999 were set aside for Harrington & Richardson.  This company produced approximately 240,000 guns, serial numbers 2,000,000 – 2,240,000.

Serial numbers 3,000,000 -  3,999,999 were set aside for General Motors, Hydromatic Division.  They produced approximately 480,000 rifles, serial numbers 3,000,000 – 3,480,000

Colt Summary:

Model 03 Army 2,300,171
Model 04 Air Force 394,855
British 2,427
AR15 (early) 14,801
Model 613 12,500
Commando SMG 10,000
Lebanon 14,014
Others 1,600 (Approx.)
Heavy Barrel 2,444
Total 2,752,812 Military
25,774 Sporters

That memo contains quite a few errors, will be studying it and incorporating the good info into the USGI serial number data base.

Anyone know what serial number range FN's M16A4's are?

Haven't gotten to inspect any FN A4's as of yet, only some Colt's.

But, some of the rifles that may fill in some of those gaps could have went directly to the Marine Corps.

I know that between where the 500 Model 613 Commando's ended at 4,701,900 to where the Model 03 for the Army starting at 4,781,001 there were a quantity of rifles shipped to the Marine Corps. As I had 4,771,620 when I was in the Corps.

Wpns Man

Originally Posted By WpnsMan: Haven't gotten to inspect any FN A4's as of yet, only some Colt's. But, some of the rifles that may fill in some of those gaps could have went directly to the Marine Corps. I know that between where the 500 Model 613 Commando's ended at 4,701,900 to where the Model 03 for the Army starting at 4,781,001 there were a quantity of rifles shipped to the Marine Corps. As I had 4,771,620 when I was in the Corps. Wpns Man

Was getting ready to E-mail you to let you know about the memo.  I do know of other rifles in that 4,000,000 series gap found in the memo.  They are M16A1's.  

In regards to M16A1 purchases, they were procured by RIA.  Some how the Marines got them from RIA, how that works I have no idea.

Am working on a new serial number base, hope to have it up soon, am proofing it now........

Updated.  

Did not include the 400,000, 8,000,000 and 9,000,000 serial number ranges.  Going to do a bit more research before posting those.

Originally Posted By Ekie: Updated.   Did not include the 400,000, 8,000,000 and 9,000,000 serial number ranges.  Going to do a bit more research before posting those.

Updated serial number data base.

cool man thanks for the info...great researching by the way

Thanks Ekie.  Great post!

tag

BTT,

This is to good to let go.

Thanks,
"Capt Richardson"

Truly the best post ever !!!

Ekie , do you know who made barrels that are marked P MP C ?

And what this means ?

Originally Posted By buzgun: Ekie , do you know who made barrels that are marked P MP C ? And what this means ?

No factory original US service rifle has a barrel marked like that.  So, that is either a barrel made by a foreign Colt licensee, a replacement part, or part of a A2 conversion kit, none of which are things I am into.

Is it also marked NATO 1/7?

Originally Posted By Ekie: Originally Posted By buzgun: Ekie , do you know who made barrels that are marked P MP C ? And what this means ? No factory original US service rifle has a barrel marked like that.  So, that is either a barrel made by a foreign Colt licensee, a replacement part, or part of a A2 conversion kit, none of which are things I am into. Is it also marked NATO 1/7?

Here it is Buddie , it is only marked 'P MP C' - no other markings and it is a 20" A1 barrel that appears to be chrome chambered only- not chrome boar
the FSB is unmarked  except for a dot on the left side next to the gas tube pin hole

Maybe it is a G.M. barrel , or a replacement contractors part ?- im purty sure it is USGI

Double-tap   Please delete

Originally Posted By buzgun: Originally Posted By Ekie: Originally Posted By buzgun: Ekie , do you know who made barrels that are marked P MP C ? And what this means ? No factory original US service rifle has a barrel marked like that.  So, that is either a barrel made by a foreign Colt licensee, a replacement part, or part of a A2 conversion kit, none of which are things I am into. Is it also marked NATO 1/7? Here it is Buddie , it is only marked 'P MP C' - no other markings and it is a 20" A1 barrel that appears to be chrome chambered only- not chrome boar the FSB is unmarked  except for a dot on the left side next to the gas tube pin hole Maybe it is a G.M. barrel , or a replacement contractors part ?- im purty sure it is USGI i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/buzgn/DSC00386.jpg i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/buzgn/DSC00385.jpg

Not GM, not USGI, probably Elisco of the Philippines.

Originally Posted By Ekie: Originally Posted By buzgun: Originally Posted By Ekie: Originally Posted By buzgun: Ekie , do you know who made barrels that are marked P MP C ? And what this means ? No factory original US service rifle has a barrel marked like that.  So, that is either a barrel made by a foreign Colt licensee, a replacement part, or part of a A2 conversion kit, none of which are things I am into. Is it also marked NATO 1/7? Here it is Buddie , it is only marked 'P MP C' - no other markings and it is a 20" A1 barrel that appears to be chrome chambered only- not chrome boar the FSB is unmarked  except for a dot on the left side next to the gas tube pin hole Maybe it is a G.M. barrel , or a replacement contractors part ?- im purty sure it is USGI i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/buzgn/DSC00386.jpg i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/buzgn/DSC00385.jpg Not GM, not USGI, probably Elisco of the Philippines.

Philippines made M16A1 stuff ? - Bastiges  i got a ROLEX that i thought was "legit" made there !

buzgun,

First off, nice find.

In all the time I've inspected/worked on A1's I've never encountered a "P" marked barrel on an issued weapon to include rebuilds. As many have speculated the P in all likelyhood represents Elisco in the Philippines as Ekie has stated. Though I have never been able to document this through my sources, as they can only tell me who may have produced parts under contract with the U.S. Govt.

Don't let the fact that it was made in the Philippines throw you off or imply that the quality is substandard. The Philippines had a license agreement to produced M16A1 rifles with Colt. The Colt/Elisco deal though sanctioned through the State Dept. is not the same thing as a contract between Elisco and the Govt.  

However, there is evidence to support the possibility that some P(Elisco) marked parts were in fact used indirectly by the Govt as repair part and "possibly" during rebuild. Though as stated previously, I have never personally encountered a P marked barrel, I have encountered/used several P M marked A1 upper receivers as repair parts during the early 80's. How, same as you will encounter D(Diemaco of Canada) marked parts on Colt's current production today. Probably goes something like this:

Colt has a contract to supply spare parts to the Govt.

Colt is out of stock on a certain part needed to fulfill a contract shedule.

Colt has a license agreement with Corp/Govt X, or in this case P. Agreement includes provision for mutual supply of components(evidenced by Colt/Diemaco products).

As such, Colt fills shortages with components manufactured by Corp X to fulfill contract.

As long as the components meet spec/pass inspection from the Govt's perspective the contract was fulfilled by Colt.

Hope that helps some.

Is your barrel by itself or is it attached to an upper. If its on a P M marked upper it may indicate that it was originally a complete Elisco rifle that was stripped and brought in as surplus. That would make a nice variation for the collection.

Wpns Man  

I've been under the impression that the "E" and "P" marked stuff was either made by EMCO or Capco, respectivly

WpnsMan : it came on a A1 upper marked 'P M' in the recess under the right side sight drum

and someone told me this is Martin Marietta ? - but now i am confused - I got it from a guy who had tons of USGI barreled uppers - and at the time i bought it i did not know anything about ID'ing the markings - except i liked A1's (this was before Ekie & others edumacated me )- but i remember most of his uppers were CH and the early-er Small triangle & C in front of ejection port --  I bought this one solely on Boar condition & finish ware (it looked brand new)


Well atleast it was not made in China !

YardDogOne,

E marked components do represent EMCO manufacture. I listed most of these two or three years ago when the whole E barrel fiasco came to light. As for P marked A1 components being Capco products instead of Elisco, it is also a possibility.

As I stated, I have not been able to verify their use through Army channels and there has been some evidence in the past to support the theory of the Elisco parts connection. However, it is known that the Airforce mainly used Capco components during their A2 conversion program. Don't know the extent/history of the Airforce/Capco relationship but the Airforce generally didn't use A1(FA) equipped uppers. So, there exist the possibility that the P may have been used by both entities though at different times. Unless we can find a lead confirming that Capco may have produced A1 components on a contract it all remains speculation, like the Elisco connection based on available data and educated guess at best.

I have spent a fair share of time researching various manufacture marks trying to identify the manufacturer and the timeline of their use. Alot of it with the help of some folks at Rock Island. Sometimes it pays off, other times it doesn't. Some of the documentation either no longer exist or has been lost in the shuffle when it was no longer relevant. Probably all in a huge warehouse somewhere like the one at the end of Raider's of the Lost Ark. But that's what makes this stuff fun if not frustrating at times.  

buzgun,

Did you refinish that upper, most I remember seeing were usually a very nicely done black. The origin of this upper is very intriguing(o.k. at least to me) since both components are P marked and probably started life assembled to each other. A parts dealer could have gotten it from any number of importers/surplus outfits who in turn get like items from the world over and sell them without regards to their origins.

Nice find nontheless,

Wpns Man

Ekie, Sorry for the diversion from a great thread.

Originally Posted By YardDogOne: I've been under the impression that the "E" and "P" marked stuff was either made by EMCO or Capco, respectivly

The barrel in question chrome chamber only, as in it dates prior to Capco having a contract, or maybe before they even existed?

Originally Posted By Ekie: Originally Posted By YardDogOne: I've been under the impression that the "E" and "P" marked stuff was either made by EMCO or Capco, respectivly The barrel in question chrome chamber only and a pinned on front swivel, as it in dates prior to Capco having a contract, or maybe before they even existed?

Originally Posted By WpnsMan: YardDogOne, E marked components do represent EMCO manufacture. I listed most of these two or three years ago when the whole E barrel fiasco came to light. As for P marked A1 components being Capco products instead of Elisco, it is also a possibility. As I stated, I have not been able to verify their use through Army channels and there has been some evidence in the past to support the theory of the Elisco parts connection. However, it is known that the Airforce mainly used Capco components during their A2 conversion program. Don't know the extent/history of the Airforce/Capco relationship but the Airforce generally didn't use A1(FA) equipped uppers. So, there exist the possibility that the P may have been used by both entities though at different times. Unless we can find a lead confirming that Capco may have produced A1 components on a contract it all remains speculation, like the Elisco connection based on available data and educated guess at best. I have spent a fair share of time researching various manufacture marks trying to identify the manufacturer and the timeline of their use. Alot of it with the help of some folks at Rock Island. Sometimes it pays off, other times it doesn't. Some of the documentation either no longer exist or has been lost in the shuffle when it was no longer relevant. Probably all in a huge warehouse somewhere like the one at the end of Raider's of the Lost Ark. But that's what makes this stuff fun if not frustrating at times.   buzgun, Did you refinish that upper, most I remember seeing were usually a very nicely done black. The origin of this upper is very intriguing(o.k. at least to me) since both components are P marked and probably started life assembled to each other. A parts dealer could have gotten it from any number of importers/surplus outfits who in turn get like items from the world over and sell them without regards to their origins. Nice find nontheless, Wpns Man Ekie, Sorry for the diversion from a great thread.

WpnsMan , Yes i refinished it in Norrells Flat Grey - early Colt color -to match the lower - i guess maybe i have stumbled into a part that may help others ID their barrels- uppers

P.S the original color of the upper was a dark grey - a little darker than it is now - but it was a "shinny" anodized - so this is why i refinished it to matched the flat textured lower rec.

Here are some Armalite/Colt 20 Round Mag Markings:

Early Armalite Marked



Cal .223 Marked







Cal 5.56mm Marked





Bigger Hammer has a good FAQ on the Mags:
AR15/M16 Magazine FAQs and Information


Best of Luck,
"Capt Richardson"

Thanks man. I think this guide is great. But what about a lower reciever variant guide? I havent been able to find one yet. Maybe a new project for our in house historian.

ttt

Originally Posted By WpnsMan: Ekie, Sorry for the diversion from a great thread.

Good info, and much appreciated.  Have avoided doing much research on rebuilds, trying to figure out factory original rifles keeps me busy enough as it is.

Originally Posted By captrichardson: Here are some Armalite/Colt 20 Round Mag Markings: Early Armalite Marked i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/Uppers%20Mags/Mag223Armalite.jpg Cal .223 Marked i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/Uppers%20Mags/Mag223-1.jpg i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/Uppers%20Mags/Mag223-2.jpg i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/Uppers%20Mags/Mag223-3a.jpg Cal 5.56mm Marked i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/Uppers%20Mags/Mag556-1.jpg i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/Uppers%20Mags/Mag556-2.jpg Bigger Hammer has a good FAQ on the Mags: AR15/M16 Magazine FAQs and Information Best of Luck, "Capt Richardson"

Thanks for taking the time to put that together, you got a good score at that gunshow.

Originally Posted By GreyWolf87: Thanks man. I think this guide is great. But what about a lower reciever variant guide? I havent been able to find one yet. Maybe a new project for our in house historian.

Here is the deal.  Unlike the AK74 Variation guide all the pictures in this one are mine, or I have permission to post them here with credit given.  While I do have pictures of lowers and complete rifle, I don't have permission to post them on the Internet.

WHAT HAPPENED?

It looks like all of the photos in EKIE's original post have been lost.

EKIE, are you moving them to a new server?

Did they get lost or scrambled in the system switch over?

This REALLY SUCKS!!!

Hopefully there is an easy solution to this.
"Capt Richardson"

Pictures are still there:

smg.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/variation%20guide/

Test:



Guess I will have to fix it this weekend.  That ought to keep me busy.

In the mean time, the Carbine guide is now up:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=283545

Originally Posted By mattld: When can we expect the same for the history of the Colt carbine models?

Originally Posted By Ekie: <center><table width=85% border=0><tr><td width=100% class=textQuote><hr height=1px color=black noshade>Originally Posted By exocet: great stuff Ekie. Is there a way you can post the links to your different AR15 pictures threads ? thanks.<hr height=1px color=black noshade> The M16A1, and A2 clone threads are now in the archive, but these clone threads are still available: AR-15 clone: ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=238213 M4gery: ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=231110 M4A1 clone: ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=229465 M16A4gery ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=234528

any way you can get us the M4 threads back from the death ?
I just got a used Colt M4 upper and want to check your data.

Thanks !!

Thanks

Problem fixed.