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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:27:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Stop being a cheap ass. You want an SBR follow the process and you have complete peace of mind.
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:30:16 PM EDT
[#2]
I am pretty sure most people have AR pistol due to other reasons than the $200.
I have 2 pistols as well as 2 SBRs. Nothing to s do with the stamp cost. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:42:42 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop being a cheap ass. You want an SBR follow the process and you have complete peace of mind. Pistols also have state pre-emption against any municipal or county ordinances in my state. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:43:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop being a cheap ass. You want an SBR follow the process and you have complete peace of mind. 
I also have a Pistol with a brace... I can take it across the state lines without any permission 
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Posted: 4/25/2017 9:43:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop being a cheap ass. You want an SBR follow the process and you have complete peace of mind. |
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Posted: 4/25/2017 10:33:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just curious all this hand wringing about ATF agents seeing you shoulder a brace. How many have you ran into on the regular to have this fear? I've personally never saw one anywhere I was shooting, ever I am glad I live where I do, because I don't have to go to an organized range and worry about it. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 12:26:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What people don't seem to understand, it does not matter what you think your intent is or was, it will be up to the BATF to determine and define what your intent was, that could be ignored by a dozen different agents and then the lucking number 13 gets a wild hair up his/her ass and says, this was your intent and we are going to arrest and prosecute you for your intent. Every single agent in the BATF has the flexibility to define what they believe what you intended to do and even if you win your case, you will have to fight for your property what ever it costs to defend your actions. I just don't understand why so many have to keep pushing up against the wall so hard? Just do what you are going to do and be quiet. Christ.  I am surprised ATF's first position in all of this wasn't to require some sort of doctor's note claiming an impairment to even allow you to own one. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 12:56:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just curious all this hand wringing about ATF agents seeing you shoulder a brace. How many have you ran into on the regular to have this fear? I've personally never saw one anywhere I was shooting, ever |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 2:53:30 PM EDT
[#9]
it would be so much easier to either get rid of the 16 inch barrel rule or just make a specific length of a pistol where its just not considered concealable any longer and throw the stock or brace rules out.
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Posted: 4/26/2017 3:49:39 PM EDT
[#10]
1 Don't modify the Brace, whatever brand you have!
2 Don't use the weapon in a crime! 3 Don't write any more silly letters to the ATF! 4 Go to the range and legally enjoy whatever brace you own! |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 4:01:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the purpose of these? - OS |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 4:19:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the purpose of these? |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 4:23:48 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 4/26/2017 4:32:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you you seen this post in Shockwave's home page? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/384761/IMG-0518-195843.JPG If they don't ask the ATF the specifics because they're afraid of the answer they're gonna get, someone else will. And it's not gonna be pretty when the next "clarification" sees the light of day. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 4:41:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, and I commented asking if they had asked the ATF agent whether it was OK or not to purposefully stick the brace into your shoulder and with intent to use it as a shoulder stock... didn't look like they approved my comment. If they don't ask the ATF the specifics because they're afraid of the answer they're gonna get, someone else will. And it's not gonna be pretty when the next "clarification" sees the light of day. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 5:01:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The part that bothered me was the "being on the phone all day." Guarantee people are writing letters too. I agree with you...we'll see another clarification letter from the ATF. I'm not shouldering my brace, not until we get a clear answer that says something like "you can stick the brace to your shoulder and shoot your pistol while having the intent to use the brace as a shoulder stock". The word "incidental" is too ambiguous, for me anyways, to feel comfortable using in a legal defense. I wasn't even considering the fact that the letter is your "legal defense" until the attorney brought it up... do you really want such ambiguous language that could also support the prosecution being your sole document in court? The biggest thing that is alarming in this whole fiasco is that the gun blogs do not bother to question the legitimacy, and literally had articles written, edited and published within not even an hour of SBT posting their blog post. Not only that but several repeated and added emphasis that only SB Tactical braces were addressed within the letter, and still haven't issued corrections after the facts have come to light. Something's very fishy about all of this... |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 5:01:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can we bring our Shockwave blades to USPSA PCC now? 
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Posted: 4/26/2017 6:46:01 PM EDT
[#19]
I was pretty excited when I saw the shockwave industries website today.
Curious to see when or if another letter comes out |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 7:41:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you you seen this post in Shockwave's home page? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/384761/IMG-0518-195843.JPG Of course, we have only a reported phone call conversation with some unidentified gummit functionary relegated to phone duty, but I guess that's rock solid. 
- OS |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 8:22:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop being a cheap ass. You want an SBR follow the process and you have complete peace of mind. |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 8:33:12 PM EDT
[#22]
As a pistol owner, please don't write any more stupid letters to the ATF about braces. Manufactures will get a clarification letter from the ATF for their products, because every paranoid tin foil hatter will go buy SB braces. All the other companies still want to sell products, and will get the clarification letters for their products, or else they will loose sales. Please don't make this any harder for us gun owners. The ATF got thousands of letters before, so they said no shouldering to get the letters to stop. Don't screw this up for a second time.
Liberty or Death |
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Posted: 4/26/2017 11:05:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
it would be so much easier to either get rid of the 16 inch barrel rule or just make a specific length of a pistol where its just not considered concealable any longer and throw the stock or brace rules out. |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 1:05:58 AM EDT
[#24]
I just measured the length of pull on my pistol and it is 10.5". So I guess I am good, however I have no intention of intentionally shouldering. I find the cheek weld position to work great and tactically it works even better as you can follow your eye and head movements instantly without contorting your body unnaturally as you have to do when shouldering a SBR or regular rifle/carbine.
Regardless of the letter, which it obviously states that incidental type shouldering is not pound me in the ass prison illegal, it still appears illegal to intentionally use a pistol as a short barrel rifle. So consistent shouldering or any modifications to make it a shoulder fired weapon could be entering a world of hurt zone. Don't act stupid and you will be all right. Just remember the range nazi's will be your worst enemy. |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 3:10:59 AM EDT
[#25]
I'm taking my pistols out this weekend
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Posted: 4/27/2017 4:24:57 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 4/27/2017 7:43:56 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm not good with big words. Can anyone sum it up for me. ? Can I legally shoulder my pistol with a kak brace?
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Posted: 4/27/2017 8:46:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not good with big words. Can anyone sum it up for me. ? Can I legally shoulder my pistol with a kak brace? Don't alter your brace from it's retail design Don't brag about how you can legally shoulder your pistol/brace now Don't write/call the ATF Shoot it how you want |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 8:51:20 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not good with big words. Can anyone sum it up for me. ? Can I legally shoulder my pistol with a kak brace? I hope that clears things up for you.
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Posted: 4/27/2017 1:15:40 PM EDT
[#30]
I just sent in my payment for my sbr stamp. Do you guys know who I can get in contact with to get a refund?
Kidding. I find this thread funny |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 1:59:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't build your pistol and brace with intent to shoulder it Don't alter your brace from it's retail design Don't brag about how you can legally shoulder your pistol/brace now Don't write/call the ATF Shoot it how you want |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 3:53:58 PM EDT
[#32]
I don't understand all this between pistols and SBR's.
I have a SBR lower. I also have a pistol lower that I can use if I want to carry it loaded in my car as a pistol. |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 4:18:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't understand all this between pistols and SBR's. I have a SBR lower. I also have a pistol lower that I can use if I want to carry it loaded in my car as a pistol. 
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Posted: 4/27/2017 8:37:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Come man, it is like raising kids, some kids just have to push the boundary to see how far they can actually get.. Problem is with this issue, you could end up paying a big fine and spending a long time in club Fed! |
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Posted: 4/27/2017 9:46:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anyone been charged with the manufacture of a SBR via shouldering a brace? ... BTW, nobody has ever been convicted of AOW offense because of a VFG on a handgun either. Once tried as an add-on charge, but dropped by gummit after pretrial opinion. - OS |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 1:41:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1 Don't modify the Brace, whatever brand you have! 2 Don't use the weapon in a crime! 3 Don't write any more silly letters to the ATF! 4 Go to the range and legally enjoy whatever brace you own! If one was unlucky enough to be shooting a braced gun from the shoulder with the strap holding a spare mag next to an ATF agent while bragging about how no tax stamp or registration was needed it may be a different story. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 1:42:20 PM EDT
[#37]
I just finished this, need to test it this weekend.
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Posted: 4/28/2017 3:29:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Congress has passed no law against shouldering a pistol with an arm brace. The ATF is worthless. They are worse than ISIS.
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Posted: 4/28/2017 3:42:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Congress has passed no law against shouldering a pistol with an arm brace. The ATF is worthless. They are worse than ISIS. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 5:37:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can say fuck that all you want, it is not going to change the current state of affairs, you get a agent with a wild hair up their ass, they are going to make life painful for you. The BATF makes determinations based on the laws that were wrote a long time ago, by people they don't even know and never will, so saying fuck that, changes nothing. That is why the BATF needs a complete overhaul, they are a rule determination agency, they don't make laws, they interpret law, any god damn way they want to. Don't take that as I am disagreeing with you, I just happen to know the facts of life as they currently exist. They did not make the NFA, congress did, but as the administrative agency are the ones tasked to administrate it and make the rules (laws) to do such. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 5:54:30 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just got off the phone with a 2A attorney, he runs a somewhat prolific blog on the side and says he's gonna write about this very soon. He says the language used doesn't clearly state that it is legal to intentionally use a brace as a shoulder stock. He said it looks like by their use of "incidental" on the 3rd page that under ATF opinion if you accidentally were to shoulder it unintentionally, you wouldn't be in possession of an illegal SBR, but there's nothing in the letter to suggest that an intentional use of a brace for no other purpose than as a shoulder stock is legal. He did find it very interesting that SB tactical and several other gun blogs called this a "reversal" and he noted that the ATF is not a legislative body and they can't change the law under any circumstance. In conclusion, he said all he would draw from the letter are these two things: It's illegal just to modify a brace and stick it on your pistol, as it turns it into an illegal SBR. And secondly, if you "incidentally" shoulder the pistol brace unintentionally, that doesn't count as a "redesign" according to the letter. He told me I probably shouldn't shoulder my brace until ATF at least clarifies what they mean by all this, because it would be a tough defense to bring up that letter in court. Ambiguity of the law is the last thing you want in a legal defense, apparently. If/when he writes about this I'll link it here. It didn't sound like I was the first one to call him today about this lol. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 7:29:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dave they do indeed make laws, it's called administrative law. The "rules" they make are in fact administrative law and carry the same weight as any law made any other way. They did not make the NFA, congress did, but as the administrative agency are the ones tasked to administrate it and make the rules (laws) to do such.
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Posted: 4/28/2017 9:04:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Would have been big news in firearm community, everyone would know. BTW, nobody has ever been convicted of AOW offense because of a VFG on a handgun either. Once tried as an add-on charge, but dropped by gummit after pretrial opinion. - OS |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 9:28:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe it is intended to stop the plastic from sliding on a floor... Isn't a cane tip legal? |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 10:36:48 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Er - one organization executes people regularly, and wages war on Iraq and Syria; the other sets up the FBI to shoot pregnant women and burn children to death, and supplies firearms to Mexican cartels. I don't think BATFE is in the Islamic State's league, no matter how badass they'd like to be. |
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Posted: 4/28/2017 10:49:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All true but who has the greater chance of effecting your life and compromising our freedom? ISIS wants to control our way of life and impose unconstitutional laws on us. The ATF is doing that right now. |
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Posted: 4/29/2017 10:31:50 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote History
I long for the day when I can shoulder my shockwave "brace" in public and when I no longer have to pay a tax just to shoot a SBR. |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 2:14:08 PM EDT
[#49]
OK, so I didn't read all of the posts, and I doubt if there is an actual answer, but......
the letter says, if someone takes steps to permanently affix brace to a buffer tube, creating a length that has no other purpose than to be used as a stock. If the brace can still slide off and on, I would take that as not permanently attached. Or is this the variable position braces? And what is a "length that no other purpose than to facilitate it's use as a stock"? Does this go back to "permanently attached", or is there a length for any brace/buffer tube that should not be exceeded? |
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Posted: 5/1/2017 6:35:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Range Nazi..... When asking about your "pistol" with the brace. "Is that a stamped SBR?" Why yes, yes it is. Are you an ATF agent? No? Then fuck off. The fact is, most of the idiots at the gun range wouldn't know what they are looking at IF you did show them a tax stamp. The non idiots mind their own business so you don't have to worry about them. Anyone asking about this is 99.9% some know it all fuck stick who thinks he is saving you from yourself with vast knowledge of gun law. |
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