So here is how my 10.5 ar is (or was rather) with a dbal i2 on it.

I made it work with no tape switches.


My new "problem" is I got a dbal d2 and it's HUGE. Huge. I don't have anywhere really to put it so I can get a good grip and activate it and/or my white light.

Even usingvtape switches it'll be awkward.


As of right now I'm under 26 inches OAL. Am I correct in understanding that if I go over 26 OAL I can add a vertical grip?  

With a 10.5 upper, will removing the dimpled kak buffer tube and replacing it with the extended version achieve the 26+ inches I'm after?

And has anyone had issues with harassment from LEO's who don't know the laws?  

Any other option besides just going SBR?

Yes, if you get OAL over 26", you can add a vertical foregrip, and the "handgun" becomes a "firearm"
Not sure, don't have that tube or that extended tube
I've never been hassled - don't know about the attitude in your AO
With that barrel length/upper, your choices are handgun, firearm or SBR

If you mean either of the two KAK "super tubes", then with a 10.5" barrel yes, OAL will be about 26.6, not counting muzzle device. One of mine:



And the ruling is "26 inches or more", not "more than 26 inches".

And note that federally, the firearm is no longer a "handgun" or "pistol", so that could come perhaps come into play with certain state laws about how it is legal to tote around. Not that many local LEAs really probably grok that though.

- OS

Awesome. I'll buy one of those.

I'm in AZ so it's a pretty gun friendly state and I don't carry my AR pistol around besides going to the range.

Edit:
This is the tune in question, correct?
Kak tube

Actually, there is an "and" in the rifle description statement.  Overall length needs to meet a certain length, and the barrel needs to meet a certain length.  Just because your pistol is over 26" doesn't make it a rifle.

Yes, that's the one that is slotted and takes castle nut, and most popular, was second release.

They still sell the first one too, that simply screws in, same length:

https://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-parts/lower-parts/buffer-tubes-and-parts/sig-sb15-pistol-buffer-tube

- OS

Thanks guys. I still might go the SBR route but maybe not. I will do this for sure in the meantime though.

I must have missed where someone here suggested that OAL>26"= rifle... ???

A pistol longer than 26" is still a pistol. A pistol with a 16" barrel is also still a pistol, since the federal definition of a pistol references neither OAL nor barrel length. Heck... a pistol that is BOTH 26+" OAL and has a 16+" barrel is still a pistol, since it isn't "designed to be fired from the shoulder." 

However, if you add a VFG to a pistol, then it no longer meets the federal definition of a pistol, due to no longer being designed to be fired with one hand.

If the newly-redesigned two-handed gun is shorter than 26", it is considered "concealable" and therefore is considered an AOW (NFA).

If the newly-redesigned two-handed gun is LONGER than 26", it doesn't meet the AOW definition, but without a buttstock, fails to be a (short barreled) rifle, and obviously no longer can be considered a pistol... it therefore falls under the definition of "firearm" (Non-NFA). 

Just so you are aware the super tubes diameter is considerably smaller than your standard pistol tube, so to make a Shockwave brace fit you will have to wrap the tube in several layers of tape. The overall diameter of the super tube is about 1/4" smaller.

This!  And a vertical grip requires a stamp, if I'm not mistaken.

Vertical grip requires a stamp only if the OAL is under 26".

So from context, you're mistaken in your belief that a vertical grip requires a stamp.

Then can you shoulder that "firearm" since it is no longer a pistol?

It may smaller than the tube made for the shockwave blade, but it's certainly not 1/4" smaller than most "regular" pistol tubes (there really isn't a standard).  Indeed, it's slightly larger in diameter than a rather generic one I have on another pistol.

- OS

+1

By all means, ask Mad Max Kingery, we certainly need that cleared up, eh?

- OS

No. It is still not a rifle nor designed to be fired form the shoulder. Part of the definition of a 'firearm' is that it does not have a butt stock. If it did, then it would be a rifle and not a firearm and subject to the NFA if it had a barrel less than 16" or an OAL under 26".

That.......sucks. Lol.


Hmmmmmm. Now what.  I guess I could get rid of the shockwave and go with a new Sig brace but at that point I might as well pay a little extra and get the stamp.  

Oh well. Looks like I'll own my first two stamp gun in about 8 months.

It appears that not everyone is heeding the law, from the responses I'm seeing.  

No, you can't shoulder it.  No, it is not a rifle if the barrel is less than 16 inches.  Overall length doesn't matter if the barrel is too short.  

Do yourself a favor.  Print off the actual Federal Regs and read and understand them.  Yes, it's very possible that some Law Enforcement Officers don't know all the laws.  Print out the regs and keep them with you.  Although there are some that are venerably unkind people, the vast majority of them are just trying to do their job, and generally want to help people and make the place that they're serving a better place to live.  

If you want to use it as you're expressing, you need to go the SBR route.  

Your responsibility is going to come down to whether you have read the laws on this and are abiding by them.  Don't count on a forum to steer you where you want to go.  Not going to hold up if you start doing illegal things and get caught.  

Either SBR it, or go back to a pistol standing.  There really isn't any middle ground.

If it was designed to be "fired from the shoulder" then it wouldn't be categorized as a "firearm"... it would be a rifle - and if the barrel was less than 16" or the OAL was less than 26", then it would be considered a short barreled rifle. 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about if you think that the debate about legally shouldering non-rifles lies within the definition of pistol. 

The definition of "pistol" says nothing about shouldering. 

The ATF most recently opined that firing from the shoulder a weapon that was not originally designed to be fired from the shoulder would constitute a "redesign" of the weapon, and would render the weapon therefore "redesigned to be fired from the shoulder"... ie. neatly fitting the definition of a rifle. This would apply to anything that is not originally designed to be fired from the shoulder... pistols, "firearms" and ostensibly even AOWs (even though some AOW are actually designed to be shoulder fired already, but its a pretty broad category, so i dunno). 

Not trying to argue but every reg and atf letter I've read says as long as my OAL is 26 or more I can have a vertical pistol grip regardless of barrel length.

Not to mention it seems  like I see a lot of AR pistols here over 26 with vertical grips. Again, just going off what I see.  You might very well be correct.

I'm not shouldering so I don't care about that aspect. To be honest I'm not sure how that even came up.

That is correct as regards a pistol config.

Obviously in rifle config, the barrel must be 16" min regardless of OAL, if not then needs SBR stamp (which btw covers the AOW aspect of a VFG too). I guess that was his input. I think. Maybe.


- OS

Eh. Like others have mentioned I'm not sure I want the hassle.

It's just money and wait time. It's not like I can't deal with this in the mean time. Plus once my can comes in (about 3-4 months hopefully) I can makes things a tad better because I can move them out past the barrel and the can will be there to protect them.