Thread got locked in AR Discussions so I'm moving this here.

Met a dude today at the range who had a pistol with an SB-15 on it, was firing it with it strapped to his wrist. I asked him why he didn't bother shouldering the thing and he said something about "the range here has an FFL and they're obligated to report NFA violations back to the ATF".

Any truth to this at all?

First I've heard of it. Sounds like a douche move to me.

I've heard that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Am I breaking a rule or was the post in the wrong area? Not sure what I'm supposed to learn from a post getting locked with zero explanation, lol.

Well considering there's a thousand old posts asking about the legality of shouldering a brace I'd say this is as good a place as any, but I'm not a forum moderator.

I can't comment on what's legal for an FFL to report, BUT the whole issue with pistol braces isn't their configuration but their use.

As has been mentioned MANY times, it's OK til it touches your shoulder per the ATF.

So to me, the grey area is how do you prove that a brace was shouldered? I'd assume an ATF agent actually witnessing that action would be 'admissible', but does an FFL's opinion have any weight or merit? I doubt it.

But there's also no reason that a range can't deny you access if you bring a braced pistol. Plenty of indoor ranges won't allow steel cased ammo because they don't know the difference between that and steel CORE ammo. Their house, their rules.

I'd just talk to the range officer, show him what you have and ask if he has a problem with a cheek weld on a pistol. And abide by whatever he says.

Maybe the broader question should be "Are FFLs required or obligated to report any NFA violations they see to the ATF?"

It does seem that there are some rules FFLs are required to follow with the ATF under the table and unseen to regular citizens. In recent examples: Fast n Furious approvals of NICS check failures... no regulation was set authorizing such approvals but yet the ATF gave certain FFL holders directives under the table that they had to follow. I'm trying to find the articles but i've heard of people who've had firearm malfunctions at a range where their firearm accidentally dumped the mag with one trigger pull - they got visits from the ATF. Wasn't there a veteran recently who had this happen to him, and he even got arrested and got brought up on some BS charges over it?

I know a guy who while at the range with his pistol, the RO was admiring it the entire time he was shooting it with a cheek weld.
They got to talking, and he asked the RO if he wanted to check it out.
RO said sure, picked it up and immediately put it to his shoulder.

RIP that RO's puppers.

The Feds put out one OPINION letter that stated shouldering a pistol was legal.

Then a different Fed put out another OPINION letter that stated shouldering a pistol constituted manufacturing an SBR.  The basic understanding was & is that modifying a pistol to enable or enhance the ability to use it like a Rifle (fired from the shoulder) constitutes making an SBR.  That is nothing new and has always been the case.  

I have and will continue to shoot my AR Pistols in any manner I feel like.  My favorite being the Chest Weld!

I always keep the brace .001" off my shoulder, hard to tell it's not being actually being shouldered from more than a few inches away.

copied and pasted with small changes from your earlier thread.

A brace on a pistol is not an NFA violation. Shouldering a brace is not an NFA violation.

It is my understanding that the BATFE has declared published a letter indicating that it is would be a violation of the NFA if when you built the gun you intended to use the addition of the brace as a stock to thus creating an illegal SBR.

AFAIK the only legal duties of an FFL have to do with record keeping, firearms theft and firearms storage. I am not an FFL holder and did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night. That does not mean that an FFL or RO or Jonny Knowitall or your next door neighbor will not make a fuss over nothing and try to invite the man into your life.

I tend to not worry much about certain things myself.

FFL's are required to follow the laws of paperwork.  There is no requirement to report/judge shooters activity.  I have an FFL.

Let them report you. The ATF does not enforce this "rule".

Interesting. Even if you saw someone at your business with a machine gun, you're not obligated to ask if they have a tax stamp or anything?

I, as a general rule, never shoot mine without my shirt on so it never touches my shoulder  

With that being said, I call bullshit; how in the world would something like that be prosecuted? "but, but, he said he saw it"

eta: i suck at typing

AFAIK, unless required for a transfer, an FFL has no more legal authority or responsibility to demand NFA documentation than any other John Q.  

Though of course most anyone can be told to leave private property for most any reason, short of protected class one.

- OS

i have a relevant question: has any one been charged, indicted or prosecuted for shouldering a pistol? if so what were the actual charges?

No. Charge would have to be illegal making/possession of an NFA firearm, specifically a SBR.

- OS

The last ATF opinion letter stated that shouldering the sig brace makes you in the possession of a illegal SBR.

So what happens if you've got chalk on your shoulder? Do they report you to the ATF or just shoot your puppers right there?

Not sure about that, but he hasn't  been seen since.

Wow!...I find that disappointingly anal.  Makes me appreciate living in the country and avoiding little Nazis who think they're employed by the federal government.

I just shoot my braced guns upside down and brace them against my fore head. That way it's not shouldering them. I get a lot of odd looks at the range but I know what the fuck I'm doing.

As noted above - why is it a "requirement" to brace the brace against your shoulder? Because the shooter is thinking within the limited box of it being a "rifle." Therefore if you build a pistol and install a brace to shoot it against your shoulder, you ARE trying to circumvent paying the $200 tax stamp for an SBR. We just need to face it - they sell far more braces than the market for paraplegic shooters.

No different than all the Navy SEAL knives or such - people adopt all sorts of stuff to embellish how they look, not how they perform.

It's a 2MOA gun shooting at 18MOA targets under 125m and more likely 21 feet. Most are 5.56 with minimal recoil. You CAN fire the weapon nose to the charging handle with NO injury. So, why is everybody trying to hold this thing down on their shoulder pocket and then cramping their head down to get to the sight line?

Because most who build one are treating it like an SBR. Simple as that. The answer - don't. Since the toe of the stock doesn't exist to prop on top of our shoulder to raise the sight line up to your eye with head erect, fix YOUR problem. Either Stamp it - or figure out how to shoot it up there. Like a pistol.

That may mean not squaring up - which is a plate method and which contributes to the problem. It may mean figuring out how to use the sling to minimize the minimal recoil the weapon has to the rear, and it may mean thinking out of the SBR "box." Shoot it like a pistol you can hold up to your eye for a sight line with no worry of the slide coming back at your face. Try holding it across your chest toward the off hand with your elbow against the rib cage and using a hand stop to help mitigate the recoil coming back.

All we are really trying to do is stabilize the back of the gun - which, without a stock means you can't hold it into your shoulder. Work around it and find your solution. It's not with a stock like flat surface that is by definition a violation of regulation. Like handgun shooters discovering the Isoceles or Weaver stance, figure out what your pistol stance should be.

A $35 to $125 gizmo isn't necessarily the answer. Ingenuity solving your stability problem is. BTW, my pistol has a bare buffer tube. Nothing on it at all. It shoots fine.

Do you mean, like voting Democrat?  If so, that's pretty damned smart.

That's how I shoot mine.

I'm also an rso and do not get close enough to shooters to tell what they do.

tirod...I get that you're proficient with your conventional pistol buffer setup.  That's great.  However, not everyone who installs one of the available pistol braces is trying to be a Navy Seal or Special Ops dude.  Heck, I have one of those stupid Kel-Tec PLR16 pistols, just so I can have something that easily stuffs into a tight space.  Talk about no cheek weld...LOL!...though it does respond to the single point sling drawn tightly to acquire a close target with the cheap little Bushnell TRS-25.  

On the other hand, there's something a little bit satisfying with a pistol brace that allows one to say..."screw you and your $200 Uncle Sam!"