What is and what isn't an ATF forward grip? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What is and what isn't an ATF forward grip?

Posted: 10/12/2016 1:55:32 PM EDT

On a firearm (pistol) less than 26" OAL, which of these are ATF legal?

Magpul AFG2

BCM Gunfighter MOD3

Promag broom handle

Posted: 10/12/2016 1:59:20 PM EDT

[#1]

nvm

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:01:49 PM EDT

[#2]

Topic Moved

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:05:42 PM EDT

[#3]

The Magpul AFG.

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:08:49 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

On a firearm (pistol) less than 26" OAL, which of these are ATF legal?

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What about the GPS-02?

And what if OAL is 28-3/4 inches?

Humor me

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:12:50 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
The Magpul AFG.

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Is that the ONLY style that is ATF approved? Is there a list somewhere?

CHAD

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:17:05 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
And what if OAL is 28-3/4 inches?

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Then it's neither an AOW or a pistol when you add a VFG. To meet the definition of an AOW it must be concealable, ATF has determined that the size cut off for that is 26". To be a pistol it must be designed to be fired from one hand. Since it now has two grips, it's not a pistol. It's still not designed to be fired from the shoulder though, so it's not an SBR either. Since it doesn't meet the legal definition of any of the various classes of firearms, either Title I or Title II, it's just a Title I firearm

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:17:45 PM EDT

[#7]

From my understanding, as long as it is an ANGLED grip that is not designed to be gripped like a standard vertical grip (closed fist) is GTG. Angled vertical grips are basically seen as hand-stops.

Posted: 10/12/2016 2:29:28 PM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
Then it's neither an AOW or a pistol when you add a VFG. To meet the definition of an AOW it must be concealable, ATF has determined that the size cut off for that is 26". To be a pistol it must be designed to be fired from one hand. Since it now has two grips, it's not a pistol. It's still not designed to be fired from the shoulder though, so it's not an SBR either. Since it doesn't meet the legal definition of any of the various classes of firearms, either Title I or Title II, it's just a Title I firearm

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Quoted:

Quoted:

And what if OAL is 28-3/4 inches?

Then it's neither an AOW or a pistol when you add a VFG. To meet the definition of an AOW it must be concealable, ATF has determined that the size cut off for that is 26". To be a pistol it must be designed to be fired from one hand. Since it now has two grips, it's not a pistol. It's still not designed to be fired from the shoulder though, so it's not an SBR either. Since it doesn't meet the legal definition of any of the various classes of firearms, either Title I or Title II, it's just a Title I firearm

You confirmed what I understand it to be.

Is there an ATF letter to confirm and have on hand while in my 28-3/4" configuration?

OH, thanks for the response

Posted: 10/12/2016 3:30:36 PM EDT

[#9]

that AFG has been out for 2 years, if you want to read the ATF letter about it use a internet search for AFG ATF LETTER, they're everywhere

Posted: 10/12/2016 4:31:37 PM EDT

[#10]

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Quoted:
that AFG has been out for 2 years, if you want to read the ATF letter about it use a internet search for AFG ATF LETTER, they're everywhere

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Thank you. I'm going internet searching for some kind of chart with lengths and what kind of grips you can or can't have.

CHAD

Posted: 10/12/2016 5:23:36 PM EDT

[#11]

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Quoted:

Thank you. I'm going internet searching for some kind of chart with lengths and what kind of grips you can or can't have.

CHAD

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Quoted:

Quoted:
that AFG has been out for 2 years, if you want to read the ATF letter about it use a internet search for AFG ATF LETTER, they're everywhere

Thank you. I'm going internet searching for some kind of chart with lengths and what kind of grips you can or can't have.

CHAD

Best of luck with that. You sure won't find it among BATF resources.

- OS

Posted: 10/12/2016 5:43:09 PM EDT

[#12]

I think the general rule is angled grip is ok on a pistol, vertical grip turns it into a weapon of mass destruction. I haven't seen anything from the ATF about which way the grip may angle, though. Probably better ask them before you get a vertical grip and mount it 45 degrees to one side or anything. There's a sticky around here with letters from the ATF. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to read through those.

Posted: 10/12/2016 6:21:43 PM EDT

[#13]

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Quoted:
I think the general rule is angled grip is ok on a pistol, vertical grip turns it into a weapon of mass destruction. I haven't seen anything from the ATF about which way the grip may angle, though. Probably better ask them before you get a vertical grip and mount it 45 degrees to one side or anything. There's a sticky around here with letters from the ATF. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to read through those.

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I thought having parts painted black turns it into a weapon of mass destruction...

From what I can piece together from seemingly contradictory ATF letters, the angled Magpul style is ok. I will just go with the angled grip/stop.

CHAD

Posted: 10/22/2016 9:01:31 PM EDT

[#14]

Is this BCM KAG legal, hassle-free?

Posted: 10/22/2016 9:38:29 PM EDT

[#15]

^^^ Handstops are not grips. You don't hold the hand stop itself, you use leverage against it. If it's vertical, AND a grip, it's a no no. If it's 1) not vertical AND ALSO 2) not something you hold in a closed fist, you're good.

ETA: ...assuming your OAL is shorter than 26" of course. VFGs are good to go if the OAL length is +26"... the AR "pistol" simply becomes "a firearm" and the VFG is no longer an issue.

The rules are goofy, but basically try to empathize with a liberal idiot whose concept of guns comes from CSI Miami... if it would look like a vertical grip to them, that's where ATF draws the lines/

Posted: 10/22/2016 11:08:05 PM EDT

[#16]

I like the Stirke Industries Cobra Fore Grip too.

Posted: 10/23/2016 12:30:37 AM EDT

[#17]

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I like the Stirke Industries Cobra Fore Grip too.

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I love the ergonomics of it. But since it is aluminum it heats up with the handguard. Thats my only complaint and it isn't much of one.

Never mind I'm thinking of their keymod/mlok hybrid grip.

Posted: 10/25/2016 3:54:46 PM EDT

[#18]

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Is this BCM KAG legal, hassle-free?

http://cdn3.volusion.com/j4enh.r2en5/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-KAG-KM-BLK-2T.jpg?1456827038

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I have a BCM KAG on mine and from everything I have read this is legal but hassle free would depend on the knowledge of who might be the "hassler"

Posted: 10/25/2016 4:17:46 PM EDT

[#19]

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I have a BCM KAG on mine and from everything I have read this is legal but hassle free would depend on the knowledge of who might be the "hassler"

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Thank you!

Posted: 10/25/2016 4:33:34 PM EDT

[#20]

I've got a couple of Magpul AVG's laying around and did put one on my pistol for the hell of it and it just seemed WAY to big...the KAG looks and feels right to me.

Posted: 10/25/2016 4:55:59 PM EDT

[#21]

i like the fab defence AFG

Posted: 10/25/2016 5:15:51 PM EDT

[#22]

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i like the fab defence AFG

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Wish it was keymod

Posted: 10/25/2016 5:24:52 PM EDT

[#23]

Larue hand stops are another good option.

Posted: 10/26/2016 10:53:14 PM EDT

[#24]

What about the MFT magwell grip?

Or the CAA magwell grip?

Posted: 10/26/2016 11:22:33 PM EDT

[#25]

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What about the MFT magwell grip?
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/m/f/mft-react-magwell-grip-black-3.jpg

Or the CAA magwell grip?
http://az321826.vo.msecnd.net/6296bc8112c245309be1258f3a08eb6a/Images/Products5231-1024x683-116205.jpg

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Well, I guess Mako was the first company to make a mag well grip, and they got an ATF letter, I suppose it's fairly clear cut on any kind of similar one.

- OS

Posted: 10/27/2016 6:16:59 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

Well, I guess Mako was the first company to make a mag well grip, and they got an ATF letter, I suppose it's fairly clear cut on any kind of similar one.

- OS

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Quoted:

Quoted:
What about the MFT magwell grip?
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/m/f/mft-react-magwell-grip-black-3.jpg

Or the CAA magwell grip?
http://az321826.vo.msecnd.net/6296bc8112c245309be1258f3a08eb6a/Images/Products5231-1024x683-116205.jpg

Well, I guess Mako was the first company to make a mag well grip, and they got an ATF letter, I suppose it's fairly clear cut on any kind of similar one.

- OS

The Mako one installs around the magwell itself though...and looks horrible.

I like the MFT one, but I've been hesitant to get one for any of my <26" pistols, since it attaches to the handguard and technically could be moved forward and used as a VFG. Was hoping someone here could provide some clarification.

Posted: 10/27/2016 6:17:40 PM EDT

[#27]

Oops double tap

Posted: 10/28/2016 9:15:03 PM EDT

[#28]

For what its worth the Stark letter includes a little gem in the third paragraph. While there is no legal definition for a vertical forward grip it is noted here, in surprising particulars (for ATF letters), what the ATF considers a VFG.

I have never see a letter that supersedes this one in regards to what is considered a VFG.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What is and what isn't an ATF forward grip?

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