My apologies if this is already covered - I tried searching and came up empty.  The legal status of the Sig Brace and whether or not it can legally be "shouldered" has changed so many times that I am lost.

Can I legally fire it from the shoulder?  And is there an ATF ruling somewhere that I can print out and carry with me?

Thanks so much!

What momma don't know don't hurt.

According to latest ATF missive (1/2015), using a stabilizing brace to fire a pistol from the shoulder modifies the firearm into an illegal SBR.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

- OS

Shouldering is ruled against.  What about cheek-weld and NON shouldered?

CHAD

funny the OP brought this up, a week back or so someone I know, not a close friend, but someone I am acquainted with wanted to know if I am going to ODNR range on a Wednesday to shoot, I said if the weather is nice I will probably be there. so Wednesday comes and I'm at the range and see him on the 50 yard range, he has a pistol AR, no brace. he shoulders it and is firing. I think nothing of it set up and start shooting. some time later, he's comments, "man my shoulder is getting "dented" with this buffer tube". I tell him why don't you just SBR that pistol or use a brace or put foam on the end of the tube . he comes back with he doesn't want to pay 200 bucks tax and having the gov't know he has a firearm. as for the brace, he's scared because the ruling that says you shoulder it, it's a illegal SBR. and he says he tired that foam on the tube and it doesn't work, still gets "beat up"

so he goes on shooting with the tube against his shoulder. and I'm looking at him, mentally shaking my head at him. now I made some small "sandbags" from shotgun pellet bags to rest my non-firing hand one. so I take one give it to him and tell him to place the bag on his shoulder and put the tube on it. well, you'd think I just found a cure for cancer. he was like all excited and happy.

now if you paranoid about shouldering a brace, I bet there are thousands others like him as well out there so this idea came up for me. make a curved piece of plastic that hangs off the shoulder with a pad on it. it's not a stock and the buffer tube isn't I mean the concept is so simple and effective that anybody can fabricate one without thinking too hard.

Pretty sure they would see shouldering the tube the same as the brace with or without sand bag.
Then again the Justice Dept doesn't seem to make any sense about these things.

Perhaps, but never yet have.

Never said anything about shouldering one with a cane tip either, for example. Only "stabilizing braces", and in separate approval letter, Thordsen cheek rest.

- OS

Is it hard to remove the brace so I can try  some of these ideas?  Is there a trick?

Thanks guys - but all this is especially annoying because I bought the gun when the Sig brace was legal to shoulder.

Yeah, the brace just slides off. I bought 2 braces about 6 months before he final letter came out from the ATF, and I wasn't happy. I'm in complete disagree-mode though. Putting a 1911 against your shoulder and firing it would not land you with even a $10 fine (although it would land you with a sore shoulder), so why the brace against your should would land you with manufacturing/possessing a Class III just blows my mind. I think I'm just going to SBR a single lower with a super lightweight, short and simplistic stock for all future short uppers.

Shouldering the tube is fine because it's a necessary part of the weapon. Shoulder the tube, shoulder a 1911, no problem. Put a brace on the AR or the 1911 and shoulder it, problem.

The rub is that the ATF cannot regulate how you use the gun. They regulate the building and transfer of guns. If you put a brace on a pistol and shoulder it, the shouldering part isn't illegal. Rather, it serves as de facto evidence that you manufactured an un-taxed SBR. The open letter specifically states that the problem lies in installing a brace with the intent to shoulder it. It makes me think that a pistol purchased with the brace installed is free of any proscription on shouldering it. But, I'm no lawyer.

Exactly! At least someone gets it.



 

The ATF is upset that people are circumventing the SBR laws, and buying braces, they are loosing tax money, and letting scary SBRs go unchecked, but as with anything in government they could care less as long as they get their money. So according to the ATF shouldering it is illegal, but I have also heard from various regional ATF directors that they don't plan on pursuing the opinion, unless you are caught doing other things, more of lets through everything and the kitchen sink and see what sticks. Also they feel they would probably loose a change in court, but who wants to be the guinea pig with the consequences being so high. I wish we had a mechanism of changing laws we feel are unjust without having to get arrested to do it, I guess that's what congress is for, but they aren't going to step in.

So yes shouldering it is illegal but you can still use it as a cheek rest.

Any arrests ever been made?  Or scare tactics.

If you shoulder it, I will report you.

You don't have to. The Feds are staking out all the local ranges and favorite shooting spots, just waiting for someone to hold their pistol incorrectly.

Then......... whamo! They got ya! You're going to the pokey!

Cheers!
-JC

The ATF doesn't get the money the IRS does, it's a tax. The ATF is tasked with administration of the existing law. When you build a firearm with the intent of shoulder firing it you have built a rifle. It's not a ATF thing, it's a law passed by Congress. The ATF did put out a letter stating they don't regulate how a product is (mis)used. That part is true. However if you use (i.e. install for the intentional purpose) it as a stock  to shoulder fire a firearm you create a rifle. If that rifle is under 26"OAL or has a barrel or barrels of less than 16" it falls under the NFA which is the ATF's job to administer.
Everybody bought and installed these for the sole purpose of using them as a stock. They mistakenly interpreted the letter that stated the ATF did not regulate how a product was misused as an OK to use it to intentionally build a shoulder fired weapon. That is not OK if it makes a SBR and the ATF was required to act and clarify their position.  Why is that so hard for people to understand?





Nobody regulates how you misuse the small souvenir ball bats you used to get at ball games. You can (mis)use them to hit rocks, use them to hit softballs, use them to thump you truck tires to check for proper inflation, no problems. However misuse it to thunk your buddies cranium for cheating with your wife and you have a big problem. You went into an illegal misuse. The latter misuse of just such a bat got a friend of mine 7 years. The cheating friend got 3 stitches and did not even press charges, the state however did.
 

Calling an apple a tomato does not make it a tomato. Therefore your gun does not magically transform when it hits your shoulder.

My post from another thread.

Just read in Firearms news, that the MCX pistol stabilizing brace from SB Tactical CAN be mounted to your shoulder, BUT cannot be FIRED from your shoulder. They have a letter from the BATFE stating this. Something about not having ridges on the back of the brace allows this.

This is the latest letter, so I guess I can shoulder again since my brace is smooth. Someone post the letter if you buy one please.

Oh, and they are shouldering it in the pictures, so pics shouldering are back on it seems.

We really need to ask the ATF more questions.  I need every decision I make recommended to me by the .gov.

Has anybody been arrested or fined for shouldering a pistol?

Is there an ATF agent behind me?

Not going to sweat it.

Someone should write a letter to the ATF and ask for clarification.

I'm developing a proper cheek weld, any contact with my shoulder is incidental.

It's all about intent. What is your intended purpose for putting a thing on the gun? Is it to shoulder it? Then it doesn't matter if it's a sig brace or a purple dildo, it's considered to have been "redesigned" to function as a shoulder stock.

Now the obvious question is, how do they know your intent? Well, if you do a thing it's pretty easy to say you intended to do that thing. So if you put a sig brace to your shoulder, then the ATF will claim that you intended to use the sig brace as a shoulder stock.

The tube it self, as stated by someone else, is a necessary part of the weapon so it can be shouldered. They can't prove you put the tube on there for the sole purpose of shouldering the pistol. But to go a step further, if you add a buffer tube to a pistol that doesn't need one, and then shoulder it, you have redesigned the tube to function as a stock.

It comes down to intent and their ability to prove it.

Exactly right. The original brace was designed and approved as an aid for physically handicapped people. Installing one if you are not handicapped lends even more credence to your intent for doing so. The blade has a bit more leeway as it was not designed as a handicap device. While neither is actual proof of your intent, it can cost you dearly to go to court and prove it to a jury.
It's your choice if you want to take the risk. You know yourself why you installed it and if you are guilty of breaking the law or not. Just remember that very few people have broken a law with the expectation of being caught, our prison system is full of them.
Buying a factory produced pistol with a brace, blade, etc. already installed would remove all of your intent concerning installing the appendage and would not be possible to prosecute at all.





Disclosure:  This is not legal advice.



 

Well of course. Anything can be shouldered and not fired. If you don't fire it you remove all purpose and intent to create a shoulder fired weapon.

Of course for most, you also remove any reason for installing it to begin with.



 

BATFE is so stupid on this crap. All I'll say is if I had a AR pistol I'd shoot it however I damn well please. That said I don't want a fire belching muzzle blast from hell less reliable firearm with worse ballistics.

Actually if you read the letter carefully it states "any person who redesigns a brace for use as a shoulder stock makes an NFA firearm when attached to a pistol..."





The act of firing is not the problem rather the "redesigning" of the brace as a shoulder stock, which would involve the premeditated intent to use it as a shoulder stock not simple accidental or incidental contact with the shoulder while firing. Yes it is splitting hairs, something lawyers do for a living.





Disclosure:  This is not legal advice.












 

I will shoulder my Sig PM400 any time I fucking please, our range could care less, the LEO's I shoot with could care less, hell they shoulder their AR pistols.

I am willing to test the ruling, but doubt any agent is sitting around with looking glasses waiting to bust me.

I am sure we are more afrai than needed.    Don't flaunt and you're probably ok.    Considering that there are most likely a few hundred thousand of the braces out there.

I have also seen some newer recent info online (so it must be true..haha) about it being OK to use the brace against your chest or "Sternum" I believe it was saying.

I use a sling that has one attachment right in the ass end of the tube (with and without a brace) and the other on the forward left side.....use it under my left arm and around my back, over my right shoulder. Adjust so it pulls tight and use a check weld. It stays away from my shoulder and is actually very stable.....I can shoot it as well at 25 yards standing (Haven't tested further) as I can my carbine when shouldered.

I was hoping that the Sig braces and such could have been an olive branch from the BATF for being JBT's for the last 45 years.
Sort of  "We know we've been dicks and we all know the NFA laws are bullshit but it's the law so here's a gimme for all the hassle.
Use it however you want and leave it at that. Sorry."

Wishful thinking...

Hard to justify your continued existence, or need for future growth, if you don't have a demonstrable problem. These Sig Braces are a real problem.

Breast-brace it. If it hurts get a tactical bra/bro to cushion the impact.

Hey man I'm barrel chested, plus I've been lifting for years.

It just happens

get a rubber "foot" you put on the bottom of canes , the round rubber doohickey . mine used to have this and foam and it was fine

the recent Firearms News(old Shotgun news) had an article about a AR pistol maybe SIG IIRC. The author stated you could cheek it or sternum the pistol as well as use a sling tension method.
In most of the cases that I've heard of the BATF just tells them to not do it or pay the tax stamp.  It's kinda like doing 5 or 6 miles over the speed limit. They really don't care, but if you piss them off they would probably stroke you for it.

What if I suck it into my chest so it's not even touching my shoulder?

You've "heard" of cases? What about the cases that weren't part of the "most"?

- OS

No known cases to date - if anything it's range nazis and dogooders interfering with shooting an AR pistol. Hard to argue the point when they are an employee but the law is specific and it hasn't changed dozens of times, just once. The current interpretation is no shouldering a brace. Live with it.

The ATF got backed into a legal interpretation and then the public took advantage of it by installing Braces instead of Stamps. Just desserts in that regard.

The real issue not being discussed is this: Why do you think you even need a Brace to shoot an AR pistol? What is it's purpose? It's a short range weapon intended for close quarters work under 125m, and more so, at 21 FEET. It's not a long range precision target rifle, it's a high capacity high firepower gun for close personal defense. If milspec it's a 2moa gun used on 18moa targets and the explicit purpose is to get a hit. You don't get extra points if it's a 9 ring hit vs 8 ring hit, you get a 30 round mag to fire another round again as needed until the threat decides to stop, voluntarily or not.

Don't intrude with dirt busting arguments about range use - the pistol is basically a stockless XM177/Mk18 close quarters blaster. We delete the stock and live with it to have the firepower.

Do you need a stock on it, or need to have the incrementally enhanced accuracy? How much more accurate is it with a stock compared to without? Again, we are talking about using it within feet or at worst yards of distance. The SBR's used in the military are intended for ship board clearing operations, or close quarters combat ie Pakistani townhouses. Or, your home.

Can you hit a torso target at 21 feet to 25 yards? There are videos of shooters hitting those targets at 100m, repeatedly. What holding the back of the gun to your shoulder does is reduce the inherent wobbliness of the human body to get a more accurate hit, but I don't hear of handgun shooters being too bothered about it, and they even use two hands. They hit the target out to 50m easily enough. It's a matter of skill and practice makes perfect.

What we have with the Brace is simply an accuracy enhancing accessory that reduces the shot group - but nobody is saying that it was ineffective in the first place. In point of fact a lot of SBR's with Stamps were pistols in the first build and many put pistol lowers on them to cross state lines either because they don't want to get a ATF permit or that state has a ban on SBR's. Almost nobody posts any credible targets showing a huge increase in accuracy when they do legally install a stock. The few that do are concerned about range competition - not self defense - and characterize the improvement in points scored. We've been down that road with IDPA and such, take a long look at those top tier guns and ask if you are trying to do the same thing, or just stop a threat.

You don't need a brace. You do need to practice. Is the recoil of 5.56 so painful that some kind of cushioning is necessary? For the most part, no. DI's in basic have been demonstrating the lack of recoil by shooting M16's against their chin since the 1960's. For our intents and purposes, it's simply not a major issue. So much so that there was even a mouth brace marketed for pistols at one time.

Shoot it how you like - just keep in mind that if you spend the money for a Brace with the intent to shoulder it, it's basically illegal IAW the ATF. For the most part you will likely get in trouble with other shooters, not the heavy hand of the law. It does go to trying to 'race gun' something that doesn't really need it, and for the most part, those that do are trying to enhance the LOOKS of the gun more than it's performance. It's more an aesthetic and political statement than a major aid in accuracy.

I do just fine with my AR pistol with iron sights at 25 yards, if there is any issue it's with the range rules that state no rapid firing  - once again we have range nazis trying to modify behavior where there is no safety issue, to meet their political agenda.

We have bigger problems than stirring up stuff attaching a brace, and most of it is with our fellow shooters.

I'm glad you brought this up because I was thinking about this. I actually don't mind just cheekbwelding my pistol but I think I got an unintended should bump while running around and I got a tad nervous that some Fudd or worse would see it and get all ATF'y on me.

It's just such a stupid thing to worry about. I just want to shoot my damn gun with government interference.

It was, until fudds ruined it.

Ain't that the truth. That's why I don't let range Nazis off the hook. If they try that with me I get very loud with them. Everyone should. They should be made to feel like the a holes they are. They keep doing it because few people call them out on it. So like children, they continue their bad behavior.