Saw this on BRT's homepage


It's probably just a regular old carbine stock that's been cut and sanded, but does anyone make something like this?
I'm aware of thordsen, sig brace, shockwave, etc.... I have a few but this looks better to me.

No idea who makes thing, but if it is a cut and sanded stock it is still a stock, and therefore an SBR.

I guess this is still a lower then....


And this is still a machine gun:

Yeah, I'd rather not play with fire so I was hoping someone premade them like that

Dumb analogy is dumb.

Difference is, you aren't using those altered and non-functional machine gun pieces to shoot a non-machine gun that you permanently attached them to.  But he is using that altered and still functional rifle stock to shoot a non-rifle that he permanently attached it to.

Stupid or not, the precedent is pretty well established on stuff like this. You would not fair well in court.

You would be happier with the Thordsen

Get a Shockwave Blade and cut it down

It is pretty well set, on his side, not yours.  Once it's been modified to no longer fulfill the original purpose, it's not a stock anymore.  Once a rifle always a rifle doesn't apply to accessories, especially ones that have been heavily modified to prevent them from being used as originally intended.

Looks cool, but not worth risking your angus if its home IMO.
But, if it was factory made a produced. It might be cool.

Either way it's still a stock, and I would not risk 10 years in clubfed because it looks cool. Although from the pictures it does not look like a cut down stock it could be, I have no idea who makes a cover like that.

A stock cut down is still a stock according to the ATF I am afraid.

As far as the cut up receivers there are very clear rulings from the ATF on those, so they are not an issue.

Let me pose it to you in a more relevant way.

Say you take a virgin shotgun receiver, and an old wood stock, and a 14" barrel.
You cut down the wood stock into a short grip, and then bolt it to the receiver with a 14" barrel and OAL over 26". Have you created an AOW or a SBS?  No.
The grip used to be a shoulder stock, but it's not a shoulder stock anymore.

Same here, you're not changing the pistol classification by sliding on a buffer cover made from a heavily modified stock.
If you melted down a stock and re-molded it into a tube, it still was a stock at one point, is it still a stock?
There is no stock registry, no "once a stock, always a stock"...
In this case, the "stock" is pinned in place and doesn't even extend to the end of the buffer tube.

I'm all for erring on the side of safety but I think you're wringing your hands needlessly on this one.

Here's the original discussion on "the other site" (i don't think we're supposed to hotlink) with the same "that's probably illegal" arguments...
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?163773-Simple-and-Inexpensive-Alternative-To-KAK-Thorsden-CAA-set-up&s=e17f48e7cbb008b16cc5324cbed150ab

I love the Shockwave Blade and was never a Sig Brace fan.  I think I am gonna buy a Thordsen brace just to try one and I like how they look.

Quick, someone write a letter to the ATF asking them when is a stock no longer a stock.



At best this is a gray area.  At worst the ATF will make an example out of you for this.  

Don't use common sense when thinking about this.  Put yourself in the shoes of .gov and ask yourself how are they likely to view such a thing.  When I do this I see them going with a stock is a stock is a stock no matter what you shave or cut off of it.

Show me where they've ever said anything remotely close to that or what law indicates that.

I'm pretty confident that what is in the photo is not something that is intended to be placed against the shoulder for shooting.

Whether the plastic USED to be something like that is irrelevant.

A 14.5" barrel with a pinned muzzle device USED to be a barrel shorter than 16", it was permanently modified and now no longer is so. I think it's obvious that the piece of plastic in question has been permanently modified to no longer be a stock.

Do you INTEND to feel like its a stock when shooting it? Like a sig brace is a pistol brace unless you "reconfigure" it by "intending" to shoulder it. Then it magically becomes a stock as per the ATF's newest mind fuckery....I mean interpretation.

Again why come use common sense?  It clearly is no longer a stock using common sense.  When it comes to the ATF and rulings throw that out the window.  Just like the 8 hours or less in a machine shop type ruling you just never know.

One day this could be just a piece of plastic to the ATF, the next it is a stock.

EDIT: I view this situation like 922r compliance, most likely you will not get into trouble for this exclusively.  Get caught doing something else to upset the ATF and they are likely to then stack those extra charges.  I doubt even if they view this as a stock they would make an example out of you for just this.

it all depends on how you intend to use it.

if you intend to shoulder it, precedence shows that the ATF will call it a stock and ask for your stamp. but as above, it would end up being a stack on charge, not the primary offense.

Guess I'll just shoulder a foam covered tube.

:(

I think this would be in a gray area. It was a stock but the shouldering part has been taken out of the picture.
Now that the ATF  has made the ruling of braces being a brace or stock according to how they are used any other thing attached to the buffer tube should be under the same rules.
It is obvious this is not ''intended'' to be used as a shouldered device because there is nothing to shoulder. ''To alter the appearance or function of'' is the definition of redesign per ATF. This has been redesigned into a cheek rest and is not ''INTENDED TO BE USED AS A SHOULDER FIRED WEAPON''. If it is not intended to be shoulder fired it is not a rifle by ATF definition.
I think there should be no problem with this and I personally would feel fine with it but the ATF can do what they want and can easily have a different idea.

you can shoulder a broom handle, WTH are you saying that this thing can't be shouldered for???

It is not ''intended'' to be shouldered because the part that would go against the shoulder is missing would be better wording.

Refer to the Open Letter - the ATF uses the specific wording "vertical flat surface." If you cut off the vertical flat surface then how is it a stock?

Absent a determination from the ATF, who have better things to do, I wouldn't try to be their stand in for legal opinions on the open net. The ATF's biggest ally are do gooders who attempt to fill in for legal agents and inflict their opinions about interpretations to enhance their self esteem and social standing on boards.

Crutch tips don't magically become stocks because they are held to the shoulder, yet. The Thordsen is a stock component that is attached to the buffer tube and the ATF has no issue with it. It WAS part of a stock, but the ATF sees it as the cheek rest component. Not a flat vertical surface.

Others here sent in requests of opinions where a handstop attached to a rail under the tube with a flat vertical surface was in question. They got turned down. Will yours? Don't know and we may never - the ATF has better things to do. You get on their radar by a lot more important stuff. This happened with the first reported AR pistol use with a brace - home intruders arrested after the fact were also charged with modifying the gun illegally. Not because of the brace, because CA law said the lower was a rifle lower and they were in trouble because of that. An add-on charge wasn't even needed.

Worry about the add on charges because you broke the law in the first place, knowingly and defiantly. At that point you'll get a no seatbelt citation if it's observable during the pursuit. Same as alcohol checkpoints - they were looking for something else first.

Read ALL the letters and opinions and make up your own mind. Some of us are keeping it in mind - we don't use anything on a buffer tube. But we don't pontificate on forums that everybody else should toe the line, too. If that was a good thing, Spyderco would never have put a hole in the blade or Blackie Collins invent the assisted opener - both of which bypass the anti switchblade bias in local laws very effectively. Nope, we'd still be carrying Buck 110's in quickdraw holsters like those guys in suede vests at the gun shows flicking them around.

Flat vertical surface.

Don't be the ATF's unpaid minion.

Someone make one that's at a slight angle and rounded lol

A stock is a stock even if it's been attacked by a belt sander.

That rule is made up and doesn't apply to anything, not even machine guns or rifles.  Once sufficiently destroyed nothing is legally considered to be what it was before.  That stock has nothing remaining of what made it fit the legal definition of a stock, so not a stock.

I totally gave up arguing this stuff on Arfcom.

Personally, I hate arguing with people who seem ready to hand over everything they own and every right they supposedly have if they have any 'trying to be helpful' doubt about 'constructive intent' and the other BS.

That said, a dude was recently CONVICTED for having an AR pistol with a carbine extention tube, having a stock in with his stuff amount his other AR's, having the local PD assemble it for him for court and in a noticeable, proveable way.

He's convicted, though appealing, illegal SBR conviction. That's big to me. Is it the same thing? Yes and no.

/typo city

Ok Slick......what ever you say

Show me proof that I'm wrong.  An ATF opinion letter, an ATF ruling, a law, a court ruling, anything.

A letter was sent in in the past year or two. No part of a STOCK can be used on the buffer tube of a pistol. Saddles and cheek rests are fine. A modified stock is not.

It's your party...

That was a good M4 spec stock that was killed. Could have at least used a cheap commercial style.

I have several m4 stocks from kits I never used. They are worthless because everyone has some but nobody uses them. This is at least a use for them.

The guy convicted had unassembled pistols and carbines in one bag he left overnight in the vehicle when it was searched. His lawyer completely failed to get it thrown out, failed to point out that the police assembled it illegally, and failed to basically do the right job.

Then there is the issue of who he was and the fact that he got into an road argument with another city employee.

It's not even remotely about what kind of stock might be modified, or not. It wasn't modified at all, it was parts assembled into an SBR and the cop who did it broke the law. But, blue gets the pass.

If it was said I missed it - go ask BRT about the cover if that's where it was seen. They might have something to say that is helpful, and informative. Who knows, they might be waiting for a letter back. It's a business and they won't make a dime on it if they don't try.

Or - just get used to the fact it's a PISTOL and give up trying to worm around it. It's NFA and that is what is wrong. Write your congressmen and get it rescinded. Better use of a postage stamp than sending a letter to the ATF. Keep pushing for the NFA to be eliminated and things like suppressors will be easier concessions to give up to us along the way. They ARE trying to get them off the Stamps. For all the heat and light emitted posting in the thread you could have handwritten letters and mailed them already.

What is your real priority?

You misread it somewhere, The pistol, broken down to upper and lower, was in a bag all by itself. The other firearms were simply in the same vehicle.



 

it doesn't cease to be a SBR just because you separate upper and lower..

It never was an SBR until the cop put the pistol upper on a rifle lower instead of the pistol lower it was intended for.