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Posted: 4/19/2016 10:09:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Seems to me if was an AOW you would need a tax stamp...I can't see why he would do that. |
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Posted: 4/19/2016 10:13:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Not sure.
It was at a PSA store, not some mom and pop outfit. |
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Posted: 4/19/2016 10:14:01 PM EDT
[#3]
I take it you mean transferred it as "OTHER" instead of long gun or pistol. Not AOW as that's NFA stuff.
Just take the stock off and go to town. I'd probably swap to a "pistol" buffer tube, but it's not required. Just don't have the stock around. |
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Posted: 4/19/2016 10:16:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I take it you mean transferred it as "OTHER" instead of long gun or pistol. Not AOW as that's NFA stuff. Just take the stock off and go to town. I'd probably swap to a "pistol" buffer tube, but it's not required. Just don't have the stock around. Ahh...that's probably what it was. Thanks for the clarification. |
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Posted: 4/19/2016 10:52:26 PM EDT
[#5]
if it was never barreled with a stock designed to be shot from the shoulder, it has never been a rifle and can be a pistol.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 6:35:40 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: if it was never barreled with a stock designed to be shot from the shoulder, it has never been a rifle and can be a pistol. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 7:28:24 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has nothing to do with a stock. Colt OEMs are rifles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
if it was never barreled with a stock designed to be shot from the shoulder, it has never been a rifle and can be a pistol. I still don't understand how those work. By definition, a rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder. ATF has published that a buffer tube does not meet that definition, therefore can be used on a "pistol" lower. The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
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Posted: 4/20/2016 7:29:28 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I have a spare complete lower with an m4 stock (thats never housed an upper) laying around and would like to turn it into a pistol lower for a 11.5. When I picked the lower up from my ffl, he listed it as an AOW. So, would it be just a matter of me replacing the buffer tube with a pistol tube? if so, would I need to store the old tube and stock in a different location away from the pistol setup? Without a stamp, you are screwed. No pistol configuration for this lower |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:28:46 AM EDT
[#9]
[Jump To Reply]Quoted:
I have a spare complete lower with an m4 stock (thats never housed an upper) laying around and would like to turn it into a pistol lower for a 11.5. When I picked the lower up from my ffl, he listed it as an AOW. So, would it be just a matter of me replacing the buffer tube with a pistol tube? if so, would I need to store the old tube and stock in a different location away from the pistol setup? Without a stamp, you are screwed. No pistol configuration for this lower How is he screwed? The lower has never been used on a complete weapon? Will an ATF agent be able to look at it one day and say, "I'm getting vibrations from this weapon that tells me it was once a rifle"? |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 11:14:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has nothing to do with a stock. Colt OEMs are rifles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: if it was never barreled with a stock designed to be shot from the shoulder, it has never been a rifle and can be a pistol. Colt OEMs are rifles because the manufacturer says they are and sells them as such. Since they made it and they say it's designed to accept the stock of the owners choosing, that satisfies the "designed to be fired from the shoulder" definition in the law. OP- There is a lot of bad info in this thread. There is no way your FFL marked your lower as an "AOW", that's simply not possible without a tax stamp. If you have a complete lower (with stock) that you bought as such and it has never had a barreled upper pinned to it, it is still considered an "other firearm or receiver" per the law, and can still be made into a "pistol" configuration. Just remove the stock first (you can swap the carbine receiver extension for a pistol extension too if you choose) before you attach your short barrel upper. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 11:18:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Remove stock...change to pistol buffer...slide on Blade
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Posted: 4/20/2016 2:57:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Take the stock off. Carbine buffer tube is legal for a pistol per the ATF.
Put your pistol upper on it, if you want, find a news paper or something with a current date on it, put it next to the assembled pistol and take a picture. Dave N |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 4:25:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Colt OEMs are rifles because the manufacturer says they are and sells them as such. Since they made it and they say it's designed to accept the stock of the owners choosing, that satisfies the "designed to be fired from the shoulder" definition in the law. OP- There is a lot of bad info in this thread. There is no way your FFL marked your lower as an "AOW", that's simply not possible without a tax stamp. If you have a complete lower (with stock) that you bought as such and it has never had a barreled upper pinned to it, it is still considered an "other firearm or receiver" per the law, and can still be made into a "pistol" configuration. Just remove the stock first (you can swap the carbine receiver extension for a pistol extension too if you choose) before you attach your short barrel upper. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
if it was never barreled with a stock designed to be shot from the shoulder, it has never been a rifle and can be a pistol. Colt OEMs are rifles because the manufacturer says they are and sells them as such. Since they made it and they say it's designed to accept the stock of the owners choosing, that satisfies the "designed to be fired from the shoulder" definition in the law. OP- There is a lot of bad info in this thread. There is no way your FFL marked your lower as an "AOW", that's simply not possible without a tax stamp. If you have a complete lower (with stock) that you bought as such and it has never had a barreled upper pinned to it, it is still considered an "other firearm or receiver" per the law, and can still be made into a "pistol" configuration. Just remove the stock first (you can swap the carbine receiver extension for a pistol extension too if you choose) before you attach your short barrel upper. This just remove the stock and add a pistol upper and it's a pistol. Some people on this thread should not comment on what they don't know. Also I would make sure you get rid of the stock unless you have some legal purpose for it, for instance another rifle. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 7:23:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Colt OEMs are rifles because the manufacturer says they are and sells them as such. Since they made it and they say it's designed to accept the stock of the owners choosing, and intended be fired from the shoulder that satisfies the "designed ,made and intended to be fired from the shoulder" definition in the law. OP- There is a lot of bad info in this thread. There is no way your FFL marked your lower as an "AOW", that's simply not possible without a tax stamp. If you have a complete lower (with stock) that you bought as such and it has never had a barreled upper pinned to it, it is still considered an "other firearm or receiver" per the law, and can still be made into a "pistol" configuration. Just remove the stock first (you can swap the carbine receiver extension for a pistol extension too if you choose) before you attach your short barrel upper. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: if it was never barreled with a stock designed to be shot from the shoulder, it has never been a rifle and can be a pistol. Colt OEMs are rifles because the manufacturer says they are and sells them as such. Since they made it and they say it's designed to accept the stock of the owners choosing, and intended be fired from the shoulder that satisfies the "designed ,made and intended to be fired from the shoulder" definition in the law. OP- There is a lot of bad info in this thread. There is no way your FFL marked your lower as an "AOW", that's simply not possible without a tax stamp. If you have a complete lower (with stock) that you bought as such and it has never had a barreled upper pinned to it, it is still considered an "other firearm or receiver" per the law, and can still be made into a "pistol" configuration. Just remove the stock first (you can swap the carbine receiver extension for a pistol extension too if you choose) before you attach your short barrel upper. While a (shoulder) stock may indicate intent it plays no actual legal part in the rifle definition. A FFL can mark anything he wants on his form. It doesn't make it correct but it is certainly possible. edited to keep it simple.  |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 7:47:16 PM EDT
[#15]
doubled on me. |
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Posted: 4/20/2016 8:01:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Without a stamp, you are screwed. No pistol configuration for this lower Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have a spare complete lower with an m4 stock (thats never housed an upper) laying around and would like to turn it into a pistol lower for a 11.5. When I picked the lower up from my ffl, he listed it as an AOW. So, would it be just a matter of me replacing the buffer tube with a pistol tube? if so, would I need to store the old tube and stock in a different location away from the pistol setup? Without a stamp, you are screwed. No pistol configuration for this lower 
Please don't give advice when you don't know what you're talking about. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 7:24:15 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I take it you mean transferred it as "OTHER" instead of long gun or pistol. Not AOW as that's NFA stuff. Just take the stock off and go to town. I'd probably swap to a "pistol" buffer tube, but it's not required. Just don't have the stock around. This |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 12:12:01 AM EDT
[#18]
I'm going to sbr it.
I think in the mean time I'm going to remove the stock and store it at another location, then wrap the tube with foam and tape for a nice cheek weld while waiting on the stamp. Thanks, guys. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:32:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Wow...there is some goofy info here.
This is what I understand to be true. How was the lower originally purchased? If it was purchased as a handgun, you can make it a pistol, or legal length rifle, and back and forth. No stamp required. SBR? Yeah, stamp req. If it was purchased as a rifle, it is a rifle and CANNOT be turned into a pistol legally. I have one lower that was purchased as a pistol, if I want to turn it into a legal rifle length firearm, I can. I have another lower that was purchased as a rifle...it will always be one. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:41:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow...there is some goofy info here. This is what I understand to be true. How was the lower originally purchased? If it was purchased as a handgun, you can make it a pistol, or legal length rifle, and back and forth. No stamp required. SBR? Yeah, stamp req. If it was purchased as a rifle, it is a rifle and CANNOT be turned into a pistol legally. I have one lower that was purchased as a pistol, if I want to turn it into a legal rifle length firearm, I can. I have another lower that was purchased as a rifle...it will always be one. You would be correct if those lowers were purchased as complete firearms. However, stripped lowers, or even complete built lowers with a stock but no upper, are considered "other" firearms, and can be made into pistols or rifles. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper includes a stock, then it is a rifle and will always be a rifle. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper does not have a stock, it is a pistol, and can be re-configured into a rifle config and back to a pistol config at will legally, so long as you do this in the correct order so not to create an illegal NFA item in the process. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:51:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You would be correct if those lowers were purchased as complete firearms. However, stripped lowers, or even complete built lowers with a stock but no upper, are considered "other" firearms, and can be made into pistols or rifles. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper includes a stock, then it is a rifle and will always be a rifle. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper does not have a stock, it is a pistol, and can be re-configured into a rifle config and back to a pistol config at will legally, so long as you do this in the correct order so not to create an illegal NFA item in the process. It may vary from state to state, but I bought one as a rifle and one as a pistol. I had a 24hr wait time for the one, and a 72hr wait time for the other per Illinois law. They're treated as a complete firearm as it is the only legal part that makes an AR, an AR. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 11:06:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It may vary from state to state, but I bought one as a rifle and one as a pistol. I had a 24hr wait time for the one, and a 72hr wait time for the other per Illinois law. They're treated as a complete firearm as it is the only legal part that makes an AR, an AR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You would be correct if those lowers were purchased as complete firearms. However, stripped lowers, or even complete built lowers with a stock but no upper, are considered "other" firearms, and can be made into pistols or rifles. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper includes a stock, then it is a rifle and will always be a rifle. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper does not have a stock, it is a pistol, and can be re-configured into a rifle config and back to a pistol config at will legally, so long as you do this in the correct order so not to create an illegal NFA item in the process. It may vary from state to state, but I bought one as a rifle and one as a pistol. I had a 24hr wait time for the one, and a 72hr wait time for the other per Illinois law. They're treated as a complete firearm as it is the only legal part that makes an AR, an AR. Indeed, some states have additional loops to jump through, like registrations for handguns and such. However, federally, receivers without barrels cannot be defined as "rifle", "pistol", etc. because of how federal law is written, so they are "other" firearms until such time a barrel (and in the case of a rifle, a stock) are attached. If you read the instructions on the 4473 form this is all explained, section B, question 18. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 11:21:37 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow...there is some goofy info here. This is what I understand to be true. How was the lower originally purchased? If it was purchased as a handgun, you can make it a pistol, or legal length rifle, and back and forth. No stamp required. SBR? Yeah, stamp req. If it was purchased as a rifle, it is a rifle and CANNOT be turned into a pistol legally. I have one lower that was purchased as a pistol, if I want to turn it into a legal rifle length firearm, I can. I have another lower that was purchased as a rifle...it will always be one. A receiver is not a pistol nor a rifle. It doesn't matter what the 4473 is marked as. If the FFL fucked up, that's his problem. His records will not match that from the manufacturer. This is all federal level stuff. Whether or not your state law differs, I don't know. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 11:10:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It may vary from state to state, but I bought one as a rifle and one as a pistol. I had a 24hr wait time for the one, and a 72hr wait time for the other per Illinois law. They're treated as a complete firearm as it is the only legal part that makes an AR, an AR. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You would be correct if those lowers were purchased as complete firearms. However, stripped lowers, or even complete built lowers with a stock but no upper, are considered "other" firearms, and can be made into pistols or rifles. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper includes a stock, then it is a rifle and will always be a rifle. If the first, complete, build configuration with barreled upper does not have a stock, it is a pistol, and can be re-configured into a rifle config and back to a pistol config at will legally, so long as you do this in the correct order so not to create an illegal NFA item in the process. It may vary from state to state, but I bought one as a rifle and one as a pistol. I had a 24hr wait time for the one, and a 72hr wait time for the other per Illinois law. They're treated as a complete firearm as it is the only legal part that makes an AR, an AR. You must be talking about state registration of some sort. The wait times of course are only due to your state's law. A 4473 is federal and is to filled out exactly the same for every state. If your FFL marked a lower as either long gun or handgun on that, the regional ATF agent would like to have a little word with him. - OS |
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Posted: 5/1/2016 2:16:16 PM EDT
[#25]
It's such an ambiguous question depending on who you ask and what state / county you live in. Generally speaking, to my knowledge if the brandy NEW manufactured lower reciever you purchased was transfered as other than you should be gtg so long as your ORIGINAL assembly intent is to build a pistol from it.
If the lower reciever was built as or intended from the manufacturer as a rifle it's no bueno on the making it a pistol. It's also a debated grey area on whether or not once it's assembled from a pistol configured lower reciever to a rifle it can go back, even though it was originally intended / built as a pistol. This link should go to the ATF letter (2011-4) on this. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0ahUKEwik5-bLtLnMAhVCQCYKHQ5jAC4QFghTMAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Ffile%2F55526%2Fdownload&usg=AFQjCNFX7aHsLC8JqdIOSMpVA9n3ddz. Also make sure to check your state and local laws. Most county courthouses should have free readily available comprehensive gun law packets for the public. (Should being the operative word hah). Bottom line is usually if you don't do anything stupid or criminal you should be fine. Good luck however you go with it. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 8:15:01 AM EDT
[#26]
A lot of BAD info being stated here.
OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 8:41:13 AM EDT
[#27]
Once a rifle, always a rifle......
Buy your lowers as "receivers" and basically do what you want. Use to, you'd select "pistol" on the paper work. Good luck. Lot's of bad info up in here. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 12:16:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Yes. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 12:59:22 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm going to preemptively post this before someone possibly puts their foot in their mouth.
On building an AR pistol from a virgin, complete lower with buttstock: On re-configuring a pistol to a rifle and back to a pistol (See also: Thompson Center Court Case):   |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 5:36:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 5:38:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Edited to remove snarky post which is inappropriate for a technical forum.
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Posted: 5/4/2016 9:35:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. It is all about how that serial numbered receiver left the manufacturer and also how it was logged at the FFL. OP clearly stated it was bought with a stock, from the manufacturer. Please educate yourself on how all this works. You are giving out EXTREMELY bad information. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 9:38:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. You're wrong according to the ATF. It doesn't matter if you disagree. Please answer this - how is an FFL going to mark the caliber for a receiver that doesn't have a barreled action? |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 9:41:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're wrong according to the ATF. It doesn't matter if you disagree. Please answer this - how is an FFL going to mark the caliber for a receiver that doesn't have a barreled action? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. You're wrong according to the ATF. It doesn't matter if you disagree. Please answer this - how is an FFL going to mark the caliber for a receiver that doesn't have a barreled action? Im finished with you. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 9:58:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. It is all about how that serial numbered receiver left the manufacturer and also how it was logged at the FFL. OP clearly stated it was bought with a stock, from the manufacturer. Please educate yourself on how all this works. You are giving out EXTREMELY bad information. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. It is all about how that serial numbered receiver left the manufacturer and also how it was logged at the FFL. OP clearly stated it was bought with a stock, from the manufacturer. Please educate yourself on how all this works. You are giving out EXTREMELY bad information. I guess you didn't read the question on the first image in D_man's post a couple above yours. I'll repost it to make it easy for you: 
To make it REALLY easy for you, this is from page 5 of ATF Form 4473: 
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Posted: 5/4/2016 10:07:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im finished with you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
A lot of BAD info being stated here. OP, Was this bought with a buffer tube and stock installed? Does not matter if it was bought with buffer tube and stock installed. It has (per the OP) never had an upper installed. Therefore, it does not meet the classification of a rifle or a pistol, therfore would be transferred as other. I disagree. As it was sold as a complete lower, with a stock installed, it would be noted on the 4473 as a rifle. You're wrong according to the ATF. It doesn't matter if you disagree. Please answer this - how is an FFL going to mark the caliber for a receiver that doesn't have a barreled action? Im finished with you. This is a tech forum. You are giving out bad information. Go educate yourself. Heck, as long as you are able to read, read the image that was posted. It is communication directly from the ATF. Either that, or familiarize yourself with ATF regs and gun laws. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 10:09:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im finished with you. 
You give out bad information. You refuse to read the ATF communications right in front of you or listen to anyone else and YOU'RE finished with me? lol. |
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Posted: 5/4/2016 10:16:23 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You give out bad information. You refuse to read the ATF communications right in front of you or listen to anyone else and YOU'RE finished with me? lol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Im finished with you.
You give out bad information. You refuse to read the ATF communications right in front of you or listen to anyone else and YOU'RE finished with me? lol. Nope....was finished with Joe. You hopped in without me noticing. Was just about to thanks you for posting that since I had not seen that before. Reading comprehension..........guess I failed at that and I'm officially done with myself on this topic. What a friggin idiot I am........time for a scotch or coffee, not sure which I need more.
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Posted: 5/5/2016 12:20:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope....was finished with Joe. You hopped in without me noticing. Was just about to thanks you for posting that since I had not seen that before. Reading comprehension..........guess I failed at that and I'm officially done with myself on this topic. What a friggin idiot I am........time for a scotch or coffee, not sure which I need more.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Im finished with you.
You give out bad information. You refuse to read the ATF communications right in front of you or listen to anyone else and YOU'RE finished with me? lol. Nope....was finished with Joe. You hopped in without me noticing. Was just about to thanks you for posting that since I had not seen that before. Reading comprehension..........guess I failed at that and I'm officially done with myself on this topic. What a friggin idiot I am........time for a scotch or coffee, not sure which I need more.
If you are buying complete lowers through an FFL and they are tagging the 4473 as anything other than OTHER they are doing it wrong and could be in for a headache if audited. This is beyond well established that any lower be it a stripped lower or a complete lower is to be 4473 as a OTHER. Ask any major FFL online how this is to be correctly done and this is the answer every time. Buds, AIM, PSA, Spikes, etc. etc. etc. these are ALWAYS 4473 as a OTHER and this is what defines what a complete lower is or isn't at this point. If some ma and pa FFL is doing it as a RIFLE they are in the wrong. We don't even need to go into ATF letters to further prove it doesn't matter if it is a lower with a stock on it. This is not what defines a RIFLE and stops someone from turning it into a PISTOL. |
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Posted: 5/5/2016 5:51:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope....was finished with Joe. You hopped in without me noticing. Was just about to thanks you for posting that since I had not seen that before. Reading comprehension..........guess I failed at that and I'm officially done with myself on this topic. What a friggin idiot I am........time for a scotch or coffee, not sure which I need more.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Im finished with you.
You give out bad information. You refuse to read the ATF communications right in front of you or listen to anyone else and YOU'RE finished with me? lol. Nope....was finished with Joe. You hopped in without me noticing. Was just about to thanks you for posting that since I had not seen that before. Reading comprehension..........guess I failed at that and I'm officially done with myself on this topic. What a friggin idiot I am........time for a scotch or coffee, not sure which I need more.
It's ok. ATF rules are neither logical nor practical. If you try and apply logic or reason behind their decisions you will surely arrive at a wrong conclusion. I personally think they make up the rules as they go along. But, once it's you have it on paper, it's legal. Until they change it of course. 
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Posted: 5/7/2016 11:47:08 AM EDT
[#41]
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It's ok. ATF rules are neither logical nor practical. If you try and apply logic or reason behind their decisions you will surely arrive at a wrong conclusion. I personally think they make up the rules as they go along. But, once it's you have it on paper, it's legal. Until they change it of course.
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Im finished with you.
You give out bad information. You refuse to read the ATF communications right in front of you or listen to anyone else and YOU'RE finished with me? lol. Nope....was finished with Joe. You hopped in without me noticing. Was just about to thanks you for posting that since I had not seen that before. Reading comprehension..........guess I failed at that and I'm officially done with myself on this topic. What a friggin idiot I am........time for a scotch or coffee, not sure which I need more.
It's ok. ATF rules are neither logical nor practical. If you try and apply logic or reason behind their decisions you will surely arrive at a wrong conclusion. I personally think they make up the rules as they go along. But, once it's you have it on paper, it's legal. Until they change it of course.
Agreed. Thanks everyone. I decided to just sbr it and wait for the tax stamp before pinning. I already set up a trust and submitted a form 1 for my Draco. I just hate paying the government an additional fee for a constitutional right. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 9:38:32 AM EDT
[#42]
I'm new to the whole AR pistol thing, so I've been reading this post and getting thoroughly confused.
It seems to be the consensus that if you follow these steps... 1. Buy a stripped lower receiver from an FFL. He marks it as "OTHER" on the 4473. 2. Assemble a carbine buffer/stock onto it, then slap a carbine upper on top. 3. The next day, remove the upper, remove the buffer/stock. 4. Put a pistol buffer & pistol upper on top ...then you have just done something illegal. Because the receiver was made into a rifle once, and then converted to a pistol. My question is: HOW CAN ANYONE, ATF OR NO, EVER KNOW WHAT CONFIGURATION THAT RECEIVER WAS EVER IN IN THE PAST? If you are holding a receiver in your hand, it could have been assemble a hundred different ways prior to being a pistol. Or never assembled into anything! There's no way of knowing, unless someone took a photo of each configuration showing the serial number in every photo. So how can you get in trouble? An ATF agent can't sit there and say, "Oh, I'm getting visions in my head that at one point 37 days ago, this receiver had a rifle upper on it...I can still smell the extra barrel length! But now it has a short pistol upper on it! You're going to jail forever!" It's the same as saying I can hold a revolver in my hand at a pawn shop, and know whether or not it was ever involved in a crime in the past. There's no way of knowing. Can someone please explain? |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 1:48:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm new to the whole AR pistol thing, so I've been reading this post and getting thoroughly confused. It seems to be the consensus that if you follow these steps... 1. Buy a stripped lower receiver from an FFL. He marks it as "OTHER" on the 4473. 2. Assemble a carbine buffer/stock onto it, then slap a carbine upper on top. 3. The next day, remove the upper, remove the buffer/stock. 4. Put a pistol buffer & pistol upper on top ...then you have just done something illegal. Because the receiver was made into a rifle once, and then converted to a pistol. My question is: HOW CAN ANYONE, ATF OR NO, EVER KNOW WHAT CONFIGURATION THAT RECEIVER WAS EVER IN IN THE PAST? If you are holding a receiver in your hand, it could have been assemble a hundred different ways prior to being a pistol. Or never assembled into anything! There's no way of knowing, unless someone took a photo of each configuration showing the serial number in every photo. So how can you get in trouble? An ATF agent can't sit there and say, "Oh, I'm getting visions in my head that at one point 37 days ago, this receiver had a rifle upper on it...I can still smell the extra barrel length! But now it has a short pistol upper on it! You're going to jail forever!" It's the same as saying I can hold a revolver in my hand at a pawn shop, and know whether or not it was ever involved in a crime in the past. There's no way of knowing. Can someone please explain? You have it right. Ultimately, to be prosecuted for this (it would be making an un-registered SBR) would be extremely difficult, you would have to self-incriminate. Likeliest chance it would be someone completely ignorant of the law and took their 16" carbine they built from a virgin lower and re-configuring it into a pistol just for something different, and then telling people about it/posting about it online, etc. AND then the authorities caught wind of it and could prove it. Nevertheless, it's still illegal to do, so people should be educated to staying within the rules. What they ultimately choose to do with that knowledge is on them... |
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Posted: 5/13/2016 6:34:34 PM EDT
[#44]
It is technically legal but so long as it was never a complete rifle, however, with the markings on the receiver and how it may have been logged in by the mfg when it was made or logged by thedistr B & DLR when it was transferred and the processed out on the 4473 could make it seem dubious and sort of leave you in a position of having to prove your innocence.
It avoids a whole lot of potential difficulties by just getting an lower marked pistol. Aim sells pistol marked lowers for like $35, well worth it IMO, for peace of mind. |
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Posted: 5/13/2016 6:36:39 PM EDT
[#45]
Also, older 4473s listed stuff as a long or hand gun. Most receivers were logged as long gun by dealers. Probably Mfgs did to rather than taking the time to distinguish the come dies they made that day from the lower halves.
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Posted: 5/13/2016 9:14:40 PM EDT
[#46]
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..... It avoids a whole lot of potential difficulties by just getting an lower marked pistol. Aim sells pistol marked lowers for like $35, well worth it IMO, for peace of mind. Very few options for "pistol" marked lowers. And for good reason, since one has marked thus has no legal significance whatsoever federally or in any state. - OS |
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Posted: 5/13/2016 9:15:44 PM EDT
[#47]
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Also, older 4473s listed stuff as a long or hand gun. Most receivers were logged as long gun by dealers. ... Which further emphasizes the fact that what an FFL correctly or incorrectly marks on a 4473 does not ultimately determine the legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of any given future configuration of it. - OS |
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