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Posted: 9/26/2015 3:33:31 AM EDT
[#1]
I stand by my original post with the apparently obvious caveat that it's all about intent.
Simply put, the ATF can't prove intent to "redesign" for weapons that have a plausible legal alternative usage. Simply using the device incorrectly does not constitute "redesign". This is probably why posters would like to see examples of people being charged or convicted. However, if you post on the internet that you want to "shoulder a firearm" then intent is clear, and the only remaining question is "what is a rifle?" If a rifle is a shoulder fired weapon, and you intent to fire your weapon from the shoulder by redesigning an arm brace to function as a stock, then the question is "how long is the barrel?" If the barrel is under 16 inches, then you have created a SBR. Now, had you not posted this question, and you had slapped a Sig Brace on your firearm, and if your brace happened to be in contact with your shoulder when firing, those actions alone would most likely not be a "redesign" and the ATF would probably have a hard time getting a conviction. That's of course not before they've ruined your life, and then again the jury is probably not going to be made up of "your peers." If on the other hand you took a gun that didn't need an AR buffer tube, but put one on there and added a sig brace (or anything else in this world for that matter) and then used that as a stock, the ATF isn't going to have a bit of trouble proving "redesign." "redesign" is now the same as "intent." ETA" Evidently I hit edit. I meant to quote the post below. Fortunately he has me quoted. the point I was trying to make, in response to the below post is that usage alone does not equal redesign. Unless a decision has come out since the "redesign" letter I'm not aware of. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 11:57:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The length of the gun is not the question. The question is the length of the barrel and the purpose of the "brace". If the brace CAN function as designed, then you're good, regardless of how you use it. If there's no way the brace can be used as designed, then you are wrong. In terms of ARs, as long as the gun needs a buffer tube, you're good, regardless of how you use it. If your gun does NOT NEED a buffer tube, but you add one for the sole purpose of shouldering it, and you can't use the brace at all, then you fucked up. The only grey area is something like an AK for instance. You don't NEED an AR buffer tube, but you could add one. If your barrel is less than 16 inches, and you start shouldering that tube, then you've created an unregistered SBR because you "redesigned" that buffer tube to be a stock. Now add a brace and you could argue that you put it on there so that you could strap it to your arm, you just chose not to and it happened to land on your shoulder. I wouldn't want to argue it since the ATF has plenty of money to push the issue and I do not. I don't think this is correct. How the end user USES the product determines if it is a SBR. I know it's all sorts of tarded... but this is the most current ruling |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 12:28:12 PM EDT
[#3]
I've brought up this same point before. If the OAL is over 26 inches then it's a firearm, thus not a pistol. The ATF's arguement against shouldering the sig brace is pistol's are designed to be used with one hand. There is nothing saying a firearm has to be used with only one hand, thus rendering there arguement useless.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 12:43:40 PM EDT
[#4]
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I've brought up this same point before. If the OAL is over 26 inches then it's a firearm, thus not a pistol. ..... 26.0" or more, to be precise -- but only when a vertical forward grip is attached. Remove the VFG, it's magically a pistol again. So if you want to rely on your "firearm" interpretation for shoulder firing, make sure a VFG is attached. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 2:45:34 PM EDT
[#5]
If you shoulder it, it needs a 16" barrel. Rifles are to be shouldered and have 16" barrels.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 3:15:26 PM EDT
[#6]
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If you shoulder it, it needs a 16" barrel. Rifles are to be shouldered and have 16" barrels. So it's illegal to fire rifles from the hip? Illegal to fire a handgun with one's feet? If not, why is it illegal to fire any other firearm in a non-conventional way? - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 3:32:29 PM EDT
[#7]
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So it's illegal to fire rifles from the hip? Illegal to fire a handgun with one's feet? If not, why is it illegal to fire any other firearm in a non-conventional way? - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you shoulder it, it needs a 16" barrel. Rifles are to be shouldered and have 16" barrels. So it's illegal to fire rifles from the hip? Illegal to fire a handgun with one's feet? If not, why is it illegal to fire any other firearm in a non-conventional way? - OS One could shoot a rifle anyway one wants, but that was not the question asked. The question only refers to AR pistols with OAL of 26". Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 3:40:48 PM EDT
[#8]
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One could shoot a rifle anyway one wants, but that was not the question asked. The question only refers to AR pistols with OAL of 26". Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you shoulder it, it needs a 16" barrel. Rifles are to be shouldered and have 16" barrels. So it's illegal to fire rifles from the hip? Illegal to fire a handgun with one's feet? If not, why is it illegal to fire any other firearm in a non-conventional way? - OS One could shoot a rifle anyway one wants, but that was not the question asked. The question only refers to AR pistols with OAL of 26". Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock. The technical point of the question is that a pistol of 26" or more with a VFG attached is no longer a pistol as per ATF. And Max limited his prohibition opinion to pistols only in his wording. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:14:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:20:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Firing a Glock 19 with a two hand grip redesigns it as an AOW since you no longer intend to fire it with one hand.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:23:03 PM EDT
[#11]
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Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG. Well, that's your published opinion only so far. Max has only applied the brace part to a pistol with a barrel under 16 inches. "...any person who redesigns a stabilizing brace for use as a shoulder stock makes a NFA firearm when attached to a pistol with a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length ..." As far as a stock, it's illegal to have it on a sub 16" barreled firearm at all without a stamp, whether you actually shoulder it or not. Of course, this it not so with a brace. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:48:40 PM EDT
[#12]
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Well, that's your published opinion only so far. Max has only applied the brace part to a pistol with a barrel under 16 inches. "...any person who redesigns a stabilizing brace for use as a shoulder stock makes a NFA firearm when attached to a pistol with a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length ..." As far as a stock, it's illegal to have it on a sub 16" barreled firearm at all without a stamp, whether you actually shoulder it or not. Of course, this it not so with a brace. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG. Well, that's your published opinion only so far. Max has only applied the brace part to a pistol with a barrel under 16 inches. "...any person who redesigns a stabilizing brace for use as a shoulder stock makes a NFA firearm when attached to a pistol with a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length ..." As far as a stock, it's illegal to have it on a sub 16" barreled firearm at all without a stamp, whether you actually shoulder it or not. Of course, this it not so with a brace. - OS I don't understand. Is that an argument against what I have posted? No matter. That is my opinion. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:52:35 PM EDT
[#13]
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Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG Quote me the law that says that.....or find me a case where someone has been charged with that "crime" |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:54:57 PM EDT
[#14]
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I don't understand. Is that an argument against what I have posted? No matter. That is my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG. Well, that's your published opinion only so far. Max has only applied the brace part to a pistol with a barrel under 16 inches. "...any person who redesigns a stabilizing brace for use as a shoulder stock makes a NFA firearm when attached to a pistol with a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length ..." As far as a stock, it's illegal to have it on a sub 16" barreled firearm at all without a stamp, whether you actually shoulder it or not. Of course, this it not so with a brace. - OS I don't understand. Is that an argument against what I have posted? No matter. That is my opinion. Exactly. Your opinion only. Not even an ATF stated one so far. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 4:59:42 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quote me the law that says that.....or find me a case where someone has been charged with that "crime" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG Quote me the law that says that.....or find me a case where someone has been charged with that "crime" Well, of course that's the real crux of the issue. Until there is case law, it's opinion only. No one has ever been convicted of having an AOW by virtue of a VFG on a handgun under 26" either, btw. Case in point though, is that the "firearm" classification doesn't even violate Max Kingery's published opinion regarding shoulder firing with a brace. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:07:45 PM EDT
[#16]
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Well, of course that's the real crux of the issue. Until there is case law, it's opinion only. No one has ever been convicted of having an AOW by virtue of a VFG on a handgun under 26" either, btw. Case in point though, is that the "firearm" classification doesn't even violate Max Kingery's published opinion regarding shoulder firing with a brace. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG Quote me the law that says that.....or find me a case where someone has been charged with that "crime" Well, of course that's the real crux of the issue. Until there is case law, it's opinion only. No one has ever been convicted of having an AOW by virtue of a VFG on a handgun under 26" either, btw. Case in point though, is that the "firearm" classification doesn't even violate Max Kingery's published opinion regarding shoulder firing with a brace. - OS Oh, I'm aware of that, I don't understand why mcroberts doesn't see that. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:10:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
well if you make a pistol and its over 26" and you add a vertical grip , it becomes a firearm. does that mean you can use your brace and shoulder it since it no longer is a pistol? but doesnt have a stock so its not a sbr? just something I was thinking about. and cant say i have seen that question come up and dont email atf. thats all we need Answer to the original question, no. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:13:50 PM EDT
[#18]
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Answer to the original question, no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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well if you make a pistol and its over 26" and you add a vertical grip , it becomes a firearm. does that mean you can use your brace and shoulder it since it no longer is a pistol? but doesnt have a stock so its not a sbr? just something I was thinking about. and cant say i have seen that question come up and dont email atf. thats all we need Answer to the original question, no. Based off what? Your opinion? |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:19:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Sorry guys, I don't see how I'm so confused. Please explain what im missing. I thought the question was if 26 with a VHG, can you add a stock to shoulder it.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:23:49 PM EDT
[#20]
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Sorry guys, I don't see how I'm so confused. Please explain what im missing. I thought the question was if 26 with a VHG, can you add a stock to shoulder it. Can't you read? No, you cannot add a stock to a firearm just because it is 26" in OAL, with or without a vertical forward grip, and that was never the question. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:25:52 PM EDT
[#21]
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Can't you read? No, you cannot add a stock to a firearm just because it is 26" in OAL, with or without a vertical forward grip, and that was never the question. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sorry guys, I don't see how I'm so confused. Please explain what im missing. I thought the question was if 26 with a VHG, can you add a stock to shoulder it. Can't you read? No, you cannot add a stock to a firearm just because it is 26" in OAL, with or without a vertical forward grip, and that was never the question. - OS Sorry. VHG and Sig brace and shoulder it. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:28:11 PM EDT
[#22]
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Sorry. Sig brace and shoulder it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sorry guys, I don't see how I'm so confused. Please explain what im missing. I thought the question was if 26 with a VHG, can you add a stock to shoulder it. Can't you read? No, you cannot add a stock to a firearm just because it is 26" in OAL, with or without a vertical forward grip, and that was never the question. - OS Sorry. Sig brace and shoulder it. That was the question. And since with a VFG such a firearm is no longer a pistol, Max's missive did not address that. We probably know what he'll say if he does address it, but he hasn't. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:32:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Yep. My opinion is still no.
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:37:04 PM EDT
[#24]
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Sorry guys, I don't see how I'm so confused. Please explain what im missing. I thought the question was if 26 with a VHG, can you add a stock to shoulder it. Weird because you said this earlier "Only if the barrel is 16" or longer can one shoulder a SIG brace or a stock with or without VHG" |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 5:42:10 PM EDT
[#25]
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Yep. My opinion is still no. My opinion is that if ever the courts get a case, only the firearm configuration will be found to matter, not how it is used, as has been generally the traditional view of ATF, and the only qualifying test of NFA applicability to date. - OS |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 8:05:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Now you guys are just being obtuse. The same perimeters, reasoning and definitions outlined in the letter would apply to any sub 16"/18" barreled firearm.
A shoulder fired weapon with a sub 16" rifled barrel, sub 18" smooth bore barrel or either example being less that 26"OAL is a NFA firearm. The letter could not spell out "firearm" because it would also rule out rifles and shotguns and NFA items, all of which are also firearms by definition. The problem they were addressing in the letter is of pistols/handguns, if you want a letter about over 26" non-shoulder fired weapons then ask for one. It's going to be hare to word asking about the legality adding a device to shoulder fire a non-shoulder fired weapon though don't you think? How do you think they will answer? If you want to play your stupid game then the letter only spelled out pistols and smooth bore handguns. Go build yourself a rifled handgun.  |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 8:57:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now you guys are just being obtuse. The same perimeters, reasoning and definitions outlined in the letter would apply to any sub 16"/18" barreled firearm. A shoulder fired weapon with a sub 16" rifled barrel, sub 18" smooth bore barrel or either example being less that 26"OAL is a NFA firearm. The letter could not spell out "firearm" because it would also rule out rifles and shotguns and NFA items, all of which are also firearms by definition. The problem they were addressing in the letter is of pistols/handguns, if you want a letter about over 26" non-shoulder fired weapons then ask for one. It's going to be hare to word asking about the legality adding a device to shoulder fire a non-shoulder fired weapon though don't you think? How do you think they will answer? If you want to play your stupid game then the letter only spelled out pistols and smooth bore handguns. Go build yourself a rifled handgun. How is that being obtuse? Why shouldn't we take their words as literal. If I have to accept their new definition of "redesign", then they should accept their own definitions of pistol and firearm. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 10:33:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is that being obtuse? Why shouldn't we take their words as literal. If I have to accept their new definition of "redesign", then they should accept their own definitions of pistol and firearm. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Now you guys are just being obtuse. The same perimeters, reasoning and definitions outlined in the letter would apply to any sub 16"/18" barreled firearm. A shoulder fired weapon with a sub 16" rifled barrel, sub 18" smooth bore barrel or either example being less that 26"OAL is a NFA firearm. The letter could not spell out "firearm" because it would also rule out rifles and shotguns and NFA items, all of which are also firearms by definition. The problem they were addressing in the letter is of pistols/handguns, if you want a letter about over 26" non-shoulder fired weapons then ask for one. It's going to be hare to word asking about the legality adding a device to shoulder fire a non-shoulder fired weapon though don't you think? How do you think they will answer? If you want to play your stupid game then the letter only spelled out pistols and smooth bore handguns. Go build yourself a rifled handgun. How is that being obtuse? Why shouldn't we take their words as literal. If I have to accept their new definition of "redesign", then they should accept their own definitions of pistol and firearm. I would say that is the very definition of obtuse. |
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Posted: 9/26/2015 11:32:12 PM EDT
[#29]
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I've brought up this same point before. If the OAL is over 26 inches then it's a firearm, thus not a pistol. The ATF's arguement against shouldering the sig brace is pistol's are designed to be used with one hand. There is nothing saying a firearm has to be used with only one hand, thus rendering there arguement useless. So what's a rifle? What's a short barreled rifle? If you intend to redesign the Sig Brace as a shoulder stock, does that make the firearm a rifle? |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 2:44:36 AM EDT
[#30]
A rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, it has a shoulder stock.
A short barreled rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, it has a shoulder stock and a barrel less than 16". The Sig Brace is not a shoulder stock. A pistol has no shoulder stock, is designed to be fired with one hand, no VFG, there is no barrel length criteria. A weapon with no shoulder stock, over 26" OAL (thus not concealable), and a VFG is a firearm because it is not designed to be fired with one hand and is not concealable, there is no barrel length criteria. The Sig Brace is not a shoulder stock. Firing a pistol with two hands does not redesign it through intent into an AOW. |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 10:51:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, it has a shoulder stock. A short barreled rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, it has a shoulder stock and a barrel less than 16". The Sig Brace is not a shoulder stock. A pistol has no shoulder stock, is designed to be fired with one hand, no VFG, there is no barrel length criteria. A weapon with no shoulder stock, over 26" OAL (thus not concealable), and a VFG is a firearm because it is not designed to be fired with one hand and is not concealable, there is no barrel length criteria. The Sig Brace is not a shoulder stock. Firing a pistol with two hands does not redesign it through intent into an AOW. The only mention of a stock in any firearm definition is found in the definition of a pistol. The 26" limit is not a rule and can be applied or not at any time at the pleasure of the ATF. In reality there is, by the letter of the law, nothing you can do to a pistol, including adding a shoulder stock, that will change it from a pistol. "Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)." 27 CFR 478.11 There is nothing you can add, subtract or modify on a pistol that will change how it was originally designed, made and intended to fire. The conflict with other definitions and the resulting ambiguity would warrant the court to resolve that ambiguity in favor of the defendant in accordance with the rule of lenity. Of course whether the court would rule that way or not is pretty much proportional to the money you have for your defense lawyer team. Such is the world we live in. |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 11:47:18 AM EDT
[#32]
AR pistols are rifled handguns. Most pistols are. And many use rifle cartridges, all the way back to the Remington XP of the early 60's, to the new Ruger 10/22 pistol.
I think the OP has a point - which only exists as an academic exercise on the internet. Go shoot someone with a 26"+ firearm with VFG and Brace, then we will find out. The point remains, if it's a "firearm" over 26" with mandatory VFG, then adding the Brace doesn't make it an SBR according to the letter's wording. However, the ATF will take the view that shouldering it would then "redesign" the purpose of the Brace, making it a stock. And if it's a stock, the resulting firearm is an SBR. It's all just an academic argument on the internet. And having inexile556 show up is the icing on the cake. If you want a stock on it, get one and Stamp it. Leave the pistol as is, we enjoy it without. A PISTOL HAS NO STOCK. Trying to make it something else to skirt the law isn't brave or macho, it's just messing with somebody else's Cheerios. Try asking the question in the SBR forum - oh, wait, what would they say? GET A STAMP. What I would say is get a life. Not the OP's fault, but the question has nothing to do with "PISTOL" and doesn't belong here. It is an interesting exercise in interpretation of the law, but it's fantasy. Pure and simple. Prime bait for those who are trolling the net - ah, wait, whatever - um, rats. outed myself. At least I'm not alone. 
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Posted: 9/27/2015 2:37:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...I think the OP has a point - which only exists as an academic exercise on the internet. Go shoot someone with a 26"+ firearm with VFG and Brace, then we will find out. The point remains, if it's a "firearm" over 26" with mandatory VFG, then adding the Brace doesn't make it an SBR according to the letter's wording... The thought that because it only addresses pistols, i.e. answers the questions as asked, means it is OK to use on any other firearm is absurd. It's like saying you can legally drive an air boat down a sidewalk because the law states "no motorized vehicles allowed" and a boat is not a vehicle but a vessel. |
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Posted: 9/27/2015 4:11:23 PM EDT
[#34]
This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. |
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Posted: 9/29/2015 11:47:25 PM EDT
[#35]
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This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. They haven't been brought to trial due to all the pending cases of guys violating 922r. 
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Posted: 9/30/2015 12:19:23 AM EDT
[#36]
I saw a guy shouldering his sig braced pistol the last time I was at the range. Should I have went all Barney Fife on his ass?
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Posted: 9/30/2015 1:42:31 AM EDT
[#37]
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I saw a guy shouldering his sig braced pistol the last time I was at the range. Should I have went all Barney Fife on his ass?
You mean you didn't? Sheepdog privileges revoked. |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 9:40:54 AM EDT
[#38]
The ATF has said they are not following any ruling with the arm braces unless the gun is used in a crime resulting in an additional charge. My opinion would be that target shooting type activities are not considered when using a pistol or firearm with a brace unless the target is another person..
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Posted: 9/30/2015 11:09:41 AM EDT
[#39]
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The ATF has said they are not following any ruling with the arm braces unless the gun is used in a crime resulting in an additional charge. My opinion would be that target shooting type activities are not considered when using a pistol or firearm with a brace unless the target is another person.. Source? |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 12:31:31 PM EDT
[#40]
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Source? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ATF has said they are not following any ruling with the arm braces unless the gun is used in a crime resulting in an additional charge. My opinion would be that target shooting type activities are not considered when using a pistol or firearm with a brace unless the target is another person.. Source? Friend of a cousin's friend recounted on a web forum. Rock solid. - OS |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 7:01:01 PM EDT
[#41]
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This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. You could say the same thing about SBR's without a stamp. To my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever been arrested for an SBR without a stamp other than when the gun was used in the commission of crime. |
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Posted: 9/30/2015 8:51:41 PM EDT
[#42]
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You could say the same thing about SBR's without a stamp. To my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever been arrested for an SBR without a stamp other than when the gun was used in the commission of crime. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. You could say the same thing about SBR's without a stamp. To my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever been arrested for an SBR without a stamp other than when the gun was used in the commission of crime. They seldom make national news so hard to point to, but I've seen mention of quite a few NFA prosecutions over the years. Seems big drug busts are a common source, and though there's a sepecial section for guns in same location as the drugs, it's not like the guns were actually used in connection with them. I remember one case here where a guy got prosecuted by both the state and the feds for peddling a variety of NFA stuff, including SBRs. - OS |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 8:26:44 PM EDT
[#43]
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They seldom make national news so hard to point to, but I've seen mention of quite a few NFA prosecutions over the years. Seems big drug busts are a common source, and though there's a sepecial section for guns in same location as the drugs, it's not like the guns were actually used in connection with them. I remember one case here where a guy got prosecuted by both the state and the feds for peddling a variety of NFA stuff, including SBRs. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. You could say the same thing about SBR's without a stamp. To my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever been arrested for an SBR without a stamp other than when the gun was used in the commission of crime. They seldom make national news so hard to point to, but I've seen mention of quite a few NFA prosecutions over the years. Seems big drug busts are a common source, and though there's a sepecial section for guns in same location as the drugs, it's not like the guns were actually used in connection with them. I remember one case here where a guy got prosecuted by both the state and the feds for peddling a variety of NFA stuff, including SBRs. - OS All of those examples are connected to a crime though. As far we know no one has ever been arrested or prosecuted for merely owning an illegal SBR. The oft thrown around scenario of an "inspection" at a gun range has never happened as far as we know. Admittedly, you are correct in that a simple possession charge would not make the news but you'd think someone on a forum somewhere would have dug it up if it had happened. |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 9:48:00 PM EDT
[#44]
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All of those examples are connected to a crime though. As far we know no one has ever been arrested or prosecuted for merely owning an illegal SBR. The oft thrown around scenario of an "inspection" at a gun range has never happened as far as we know. Admittedly, you are correct in that a simple possession charge would not make the news but you'd think someone on a forum somewhere would have dug it up if it had happened. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. You could say the same thing about SBR's without a stamp. To my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever been arrested for an SBR without a stamp other than when the gun was used in the commission of crime. They seldom make national news so hard to point to, but I've seen mention of quite a few NFA prosecutions over the years. Seems big drug busts are a common source, and though there's a sepecial section for guns in same location as the drugs, it's not like the guns were actually used in connection with them. I remember one case here where a guy got prosecuted by both the state and the feds for peddling a variety of NFA stuff, including SBRs. - OS All of those examples are connected to a crime though. As far we know no one has ever been arrested or prosecuted for merely owning an illegal SBR. The oft thrown around scenario of an "inspection" at a gun range has never happened as far as we know. Admittedly, you are correct in that a simple possession charge would not make the news but you'd think someone on a forum somewhere would have dug it up if it had happened. Oh, I'm sure it's quite rare from just "spot checks". Most probably are discovered as you posit, from local police encounters of one kind or another involving another matter, and get referred up to the feds, if not just tried on the state level solely. - OS |
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Posted: 10/1/2015 11:26:06 PM EDT
[#45]
The internet is a chatty place. It's unlikely an arrest of someone without a criminal background would not make it to the internet.
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Posted: 10/3/2015 10:01:20 AM EDT
[#46]
There's always nosy folks and do gooders. I got the local police called on me once for a report of "machinegun fire." I was firing my 1911 at a quick pace.
Firing one of my AR pistols rapidly a fellow asked where I got an M-16. One never knows. |
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Posted: 10/5/2015 12:09:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, I'm sure it's quite rare from just "spot checks". Most probably are discovered as you posit, from local police encounters of one kind or another involving another matter, and get referred up to the feds, if not just tried on the state level solely. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This whole "illegal" to shoulder a pistol with a sig brace, shockwave, padded tube, or whatever else thing has been going on for over a year now. Surely there have been several arrests, charges filed, BATF stings, grand jury indictments etc. So obviously there are a few otherwise law abiding shooting enthusiasts sitting in prison right??? WRONG!!! Guys that argue this issue on gun forums every day are the only people that care. They.......we are the only ones keeping this controversy alive. You could say the same thing about SBR's without a stamp. To my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong, no one has ever been arrested for an SBR without a stamp other than when the gun was used in the commission of crime. They seldom make national news so hard to point to, but I've seen mention of quite a few NFA prosecutions over the years. Seems big drug busts are a common source, and though there's a sepecial section for guns in same location as the drugs, it's not like the guns were actually used in connection with them. I remember one case here where a guy got prosecuted by both the state and the feds for peddling a variety of NFA stuff, including SBRs. - OS All of those examples are connected to a crime though. As far we know no one has ever been arrested or prosecuted for merely owning an illegal SBR. The oft thrown around scenario of an "inspection" at a gun range has never happened as far as we know. Admittedly, you are correct in that a simple possession charge would not make the news but you'd think someone on a forum somewhere would have dug it up if it had happened. Oh, I'm sure it's quite rare from just "spot checks". Most probably are discovered as you posit, from local police encounters of one kind or another involving another matter, and get referred up to the feds, if not just tried on the state level solely. - OS Most local police are not familiar with federal weapons laws. They have no reason to be. They do not enforce them. An AR pistol be it blade, brace, covered tube whatever will not likely draw the attention (more that a 16 + barrel) of "Local Law Enforcement" when at a range, LGS, or anywhere. else. If recent history is any indication as to the way these things (are they laws, or one ATF agents opinion anyway???) will be enforced, If you don't have an indoor grow, meth lab, run a human trafficking operation, etc. there is not much chance of you being on the radar of someone looking to arrest/prosecute you for putting a Sig Brace up to your damn shoulder or chest. RELAX  
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Posted: 10/5/2015 2:48:40 PM EDT
[#48]
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Most local police are not familiar with federal weapons laws. They have no reason to be. They do not enforce them...... TN has state laws regarding SBR, SBS, auto, silencers, and I'm guessing KY does also? So they are indeed "familiar" with those class weapons apart from federal definitions. TN even has statue that no effort will be made to assist the Feds in prosecution of firearm issues, but TN itself will still prosecute for those. I agree the brace issue is not gonna be an issue in all this under most all states' code, however. - OS |
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Posted: 10/5/2015 2:48:43 PM EDT
[#49]
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Friend of a cousin's friend recounted on a web forum. Rock solid. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The ATF has said they are not following any ruling with the arm braces unless the gun is used in a crime resulting in an additional charge. My opinion would be that target shooting type activities are not considered when using a pistol or firearm with a brace unless the target is another person.. Source? Friend of a cousin's friend recounted on a web forum. Rock solid. - OS "Rock solid". agreed.
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