Ok guys, I have a question that's probably been asked a 1,000 times before, is it illegal to should an AR pistol with just a buffer tube on it, no arm braces or anything just a tube?  Is there a BATFEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ letter saying it is legal or illegal?

Thanks in advance.

According to the BATF, you can only shoulder it if you never intended to shoulder it.  I'm paraphrasing because it makes me laugh.

Asking the question probably makes it illegal for the person asking to make one because it indicates a persons awareness that shouldering creates enough interest to ask the question.  HA!  You're like Tom Brady now.  Generally aware now indicates guilt.  It's the NFL that now decides if you get to make an AR pistol.  My side!

http://blog.princelaw.com/tag/thordsen/

My personal opinion is that in the current state of obfuscation, "don't ask, don't tell" is more than likely the current policy.  But no one really knows until it hits a judges desk.  

The reason I asked was because of other threads about the Sig brace being illegal to shoulder.  I was just thinking how dumb that is.  It isn't illegal to fire my Glock from the shoulder, so if my pistol is a pistol I should be allowed to fire it anyway I want to just like my Glock.  It just sucks that this is grey area and that it's so obviously contrary to logical thinking.  I wonder if the BATFE reads these letters out loud to anyone before firing them off, the reactions from people should let them know they are nuts.

Three key factors:

1. Don't write a letter to the BATF and ask that question

2. Do not post photos of you shouldering the receiver extension on the internet.

3. Do not post videos of you shouldering the receiver extension on the internet.

Click your heels together three times and say "there is no place like home."

1. I'm not writing any letters.  I don't want to give them a chance to make up new boundaries.

2. I don't post photos of me shooting (or anyone else for that matter).  Once I posted a photo of my family shooting my dad's ashes.

3. Pretty much the same as 2, except insert the word video where you see the word photo and remove the whole dad's ashes thing.

Also, I stopped wearing heels.

When has anyone on here, or anyone you have met or talked to been arrested or had legal issues shouldering an AR pistol?

Never that I know of.  As far as I know it's all just theoretical at this point.  The BATFE seems to be basing their argument on the fact that when you add a brace to an AR pistol the act of shouldering it constitutes making an NFA wepaon, because you altered the pistol, with the brace, and then 'mis-used' the brace.  So what about pistols sold with the brace?  You didn't alter it in any way and how can you know how it was intended to be fired?  I hate that every gun issue is a huge grey area anymore.

IMHO, I believe all this came about because their are people that Can own SBR's, have paid the tax on them.They are Butthurt over the fact that I,and others in Non NFA states Cannot own a SBR, so we took the only route available to us to get a Pseudo SBR and did not have to register them. They are the ones that brought the Shouldering to the BATFE's attention to ruin it for others. I would gladly pay the tax to have a SBR, and a Suppressor. I paid plenty for my AR Pistol, it's not registered like those SBR's, but I would register it also if I had to.

It's logical if you assume the only reason it was allowed was because of the American Disabilities Act.  No Act and the brace is a stock.  The ATF has been clear it was approved as an aide for shooting one handed.  

And just like on this board, give people an inch and they take a mile.  "This is why we can't have nice things."

It's this mentality right here that is the real problem. when you build or modify a firearm into a firearm intended to be shoulder fired you make a rifle. There is no "Pseudo SBR". Adding a brace to a pistol for the purpose of using it to shoulder fire is making a rifle. It's just that simple. It's been passed by Congress and codified as law for the past 81 years.



It's not the fact that people are shooting from the shoulder, you can fire your pistol in any way you wish. However when you add a brace just so you can fire it from your shoulder you are redesigning the brace (by use) into a shoulder stock which in turn is remaking the pistol into a shoulder fired firearm, a.k.a. a rifle. If the OAL or barrel length fall within the purview of the NFA then you must jump through those hoops, plain and simple. If your state does not allow it then your stuck.



There is no law that prevents you from moving to a different state either. I left California when their continued violations of my rights exceeded my tolerance threshold. You can too if you want to. People do it everyday.



I do have SRBs and AR pistols. I even a Sig AR pistol that I bought with a brace already attached by the manufacturer. I have no reservations about firing it from my shoulder. The manufacture designed, made and intended it to be fired with one hand. It is a pistol by strict legal definition and there is no position I can fire it from that can change that. That too has been passed by Congress and codified as law for the past 81 years.



 

It was probably all the letters. The ATF threw us a huge bone with the original decision, but instead of accepting that, people had to make it explicit: "Dear ATF, do you super-duper double pinky swear that it's okay if I circumvent the NFA?"

They can only wink and nod so many times. At least, this is according to those who talked to ATF people at SHOT right after the decision. My own theory is that it was an F.U. to SIG for pushing the baffle-stack-break lawsuit, but last time I mentioned that, people thought I was insane to suggest that a government agency might act punitively.

That "Dear ATF..." line had me laughing.  Nailed it!  People just have to keep poking the bear.

The problem is that the ATF does have a letter publicized that says the buffer is necessary and shouldering it isn't a problem. Since then they have not approved a lot of guns that have buffer tubes attached - completely empty and only used for mounting a brace. Those tubes are useless to the function of the action and are not part of the design, therefore the ATF isn't giving in to their use as a support for the Brace.

Then the Open Letter came out, which was deliberately written in a confusing manner (as are many) and some took one sentence out of it as saying buffer tubes are illegal, too. That has already been argued here.

Were the posters experts in interpreting ATF regulations and have they argued in court with ATF judges who ruled in their favor? No such thing exists, and no cases, either. It's all hazy language supporting the ATF's intent to enforce by hints and threats. Actual arrests are pretty rare, most of the time they are busy with tracking and taking down real criminal actions. And with the confusion it seems there are plenty of volunteers who are willing to do the work of the ATF for them, FREE. That is the real danger - our own fellow shooters are acting as agents of the ATF and throwing us off ranges because they are "empowered" by they ego and lack of understanding.

We've had reports of people being escorted from ranges or told to get off ever since the Open Letter. None of these were based on legal interpretations - because those who make then determinations are not LEO's, have no jurisdiction, and the language is certainly NOT clear or well defined. These incidents did NOT have a Brace involved, but they did have the range agent or property owner who made the decision. In one other incident it was the uninformed public making a scene.

The ATF isn't even trying to enforce whatever the language says - it's other shooters on an ego trip "swatting" pistol users and then acting as rogue cops to enforce it.

EVERY POSTER WHO INSISTS HIS INTERPRETATION OF LAW IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT IS ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE. Unless you are an ATF agent or a lawyer with a practice in the specific jurisdiction you do not have an "expert" opinion, what you have is a platform to shine light on your ego. This issue didn't exist until some posted up there was a "legal" interpretation that "you can't shoulder a buffer tube" and made it a problem.

Now lets shift to a completely different perspective. Actually shouldering the tube - why? It's too short, it forces the pistol lower, and it jams the sights against the face which has to be tilted sideways and down to look thru them.

The pistol is - wait for it - A PISTOL. 5.56 has very little recoil. all the shoulder stock does is help stabilize the back of the gun for an incremental increase in accuracy. Well, it's not a "sniper pistol," it's a 2-3MOA capable gun being shot at 18MOA live targets when it is. And usually at less than 125m, although if you practice you can hit targets - 18MOA targets - out to 400m. We talk about the pistol being a workaround to own the closest thing we can to an SBR without stamp. Well, SBR's are NOT sniper rifles, they are used on live 18MOA targets for ship boarding operations or inside buildings. They are not M4's or M16's and are not intended to shoot accurately to long distances. They can- but it's the same as trying to use a 20" barreled M16 indoors - it's not the best combination of features for the job.

It's the people trying to use the AR pistol as a long distance rifle who are ALSO contributing to the mashup. Don't bother shouldering it at all, use it for what it is. Hold the pistol out against sling tension, acquire a sight picture on an 18MOA target, pull trigger. LEARN HOW TO SHOOT IT instead of adding bandaid stocks to cover up a lack of skill. Instead of blowing $300 on a 2X scope, spend it on a good laser - at the short distances it actually fits the intended use.

Most of what we have as a controversy over the use of the AR pistol would disappear overnight if posters pretending to be legal experts quit pontification about ATF letters to embellish their internet "credibility" and AR pistol owners would learn how to shoot it like a pistol. There is no real controversy, it's manufactured because some people like to tell others what to do, and other people can't take no for an answer when it's obvious their whole point is to make it something it isn't.

Pistols have no stocks. Learn to shoot it.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/breaking-ca-man-charged-owning-sbr-pistol-brace-equipped-ar-15/




Other than he was committing a felony, as Mom's Demand Action would say "good guy with a gun right there"! :D
 

I enjoy your posts because they're intelligent and well thought out.  However, like most things people come in all different configurations.  Shouldering a receiver extension is very natural for me.  I don't even think about it, it causes me no discomfort and it changes the speed of follow up shots dramatically.  Of course, I've done shoulder shrugs all my life and that makes a difference.

I also will disagree about the laser.  Unless you really practice with one, they are extremely slow.  And just try to find a dot on a matte black surface under stress.  Really . . . good luck.  By the time you've found that dot wandering around out there, it's way too late.  There's a reason police don't use them.  Front sight, front sight, front sight.

I hate to be a pedantic asshole, but this case has nothing to do with shouldering anything, nor is the ATF even involved. It's about an individual who was arrested for participating in a home invasion robbery, who happened to be armed with an AR with a Sig brace that purportedly violates California's assault weapon laws.

So no, the ATF has yet to arrest or criminally charge anyone, anywhere, for shouldering a not-a-stock attached to an AR buffer tube.

Are you going to pay me $28.00 per hour, full benefits that cover my terminally ill wifes costs, provide me the same assurances i have worked hard for all these years? there are other factors than laws that keep people from moving. Care to move up here? I bet NOT.

 

I post pictures  of me using my Sig  Brace as intended just in case the BATF  comes to my private range in the middle of nowhere  and sees me "unintentionally" let it touch my shoulder.  
to the best of my knowledge, no 1 has ever been charged let alone prosecutor, or convicted of putting a pistol against the shoulder.

But some people think that a little paranoia is healthy

That looks like one light weight build. I bet you can shoot that sucker for hours that way! :)





 

It's still your choice. I had the same considerations, except the ill wife, but I took  a 47.50/hr to 30/hr pay cut for doing more work.




Yes it was hard for a few months, life's not always roses. Now I couldn't be happier I made the move, should have done it 20 years ago.
Fear and uncertainty of change is what keeps people stagnate, the "assurances I have worked hard for all these years" as you put it. Thomas Jefferson penned the sediment perfectly, "accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."    You do of course realize that your "assurances I have worked hard for all these years" are just an illusion don't you? In Iowa employees work at will. This
means an employee can be fired at any time and for any reason, or for
no reason at all.






So you consider yourself stuck where you are, your choice. But that is no reason to lash out at the people that can do what your state's laws prevent you from doing. It wasn't "butthurt" SBR owners that "cheated" you out of anything. It was the people with your attitude that decided, against 81 years of well documented law, that you could build a shoulder fired weapon based on a letter that stated the ATF did not regulate misuse of a product. You and others like you turned the misuse into an intentional act to try and skirt that law. Tha ATF had no choice but to act. You did it to yourselves, SBR owners had no dog in the fight, nor did the decision effect us one way or the other.
But you just figure we are all butthurt over it. Do you really think we would like to continue paying for our rights to own SBRs? Do you think we would stop building SBRs if the brace was legal to use as a stock because we would no longer need to pay the tax? If your state abolished income tax tomorrow would you be butthurt because you paid them all your life already? Are you butthurt now over the fact the you must pay state income tax when I don't? Are you butthurt because I can walk into a gun store and walk out with a handgun 5 minutes later? Do you think I am butthurt because your carry permit covers all weapons where mine is just firearms? Different states, different laws obey them or break them as you see fit, it doesn't effect me at all.  The choices you make are your own, the consequences of those choices are yours alone.
Grow up.
 

Maybe that's an evil we're accustomed to suffering and our time would be better spent trying to get NFA overturned

I agree 110%.



 

Well I do not know (none of us do for sure) what caused the "Open Letter" to happen. Of all of the AR Pistol people I know in person (not online), none of them wrote letters after the Bradley letter was put out there. Why would they? The BATF took a clear stance on the subject and the Pistol crowd was good with it. Now on the flip-side of the coin, the 3 SBR people (who I also know in person) I know threw a fit over the Bradley letter. I got a 2 hour sermon on how it was not fair that they had to fill out paperwork, wait months on end, get photos, get finger prints, be put on an ATF list and pay the tax from 2 of them. They seemed to think that SB15 Pistol people had wronged the SBR club and should have to pay. I know for a fact that one of them did write a letter to the BATF to "cry foul". I can not say all SBR people are like this, but out of 10 AR friends (7 AR Pistol guys and 3 SBR guys), only the 3 SBR guys had a problem. I can't sit here and say all SBR people are like this, but saying they had nothing to do with it is way off. I guess I would be upset if I had to wait in line for something while watching others just skip the line. Over all I see the "Open Letter" as a way to bring back up the decline in SBR revenue that SB15s caused the BATF. It worked, a lot of AR Pistol people got scared and ran out to start the SBR process. So if you are a SBR person sitting there with your hands up saying "not it!" to all the pistol people, you should look at the big picture. The whole thing comes down to money made (or not made) by the BATF. So the "Open Letter" and the unhappiness of some of the SBR people knocked down the SB15 Pistol down a few spots. So much for AR (and or gun people) supporting each other. Those 3 SBR (plus a handful more whom I do not know) people have now made it so none of us (SB15 or not) can shoot our AR pistols at our local range (we have been banned by the range from shooting AR pistols at the "pistol" or "rifle" areas).

I also know a few SBR owners who wrote letters crying foul over the decision.  I'm not sure if the brace ever devalued legitimate SBR's but it did ruffle some feathers of guys who had to jump through hoops to get them.  I occasionally see the same thing from people who have a collection of full auto guns.  The worst thing that could ever happen to their investment is a removal of the ban.

I'm starting to feel like the ATF. So many people asking about it that I feel like telling them it's illegal just for fun...

Is this article outdated or something?

BREAKING: ATF Confirms Firing an AR-15 Pistol From the Shoulder Using SIG’s Brace is A-OK

Yes, quite.

1/16/2015:

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

- OS