Forgive my ignorance but I'm very new to the pistol concept.
I see a lot of what looks like stocks like the Shockwave and the Sig brace.
My concern is if it's currently legal to shoulder one of these things and what would happen if it was used in self defense? I have nanny cams in my house and I'd imagine if I used a gun in self defence someone would want to see those.

I've seen a lot of different ATF letters saying one thing or another bUT what is the current status?

Sorry if all this has been discussed but it seems like it changes on a daily basis.
Thanks

All the various braces are legal to add to a pistol.

One non-lawyer in an acting position over one department of ATF has said that shouldering any of them changes the firearm into an SBR which falls under the NFA.

- OS

So realisticly if the gun was shouldered in a self defense shooting it would be an illegal weapon?
Can it never be a serious use gun?

Since nobody has been charged with anything regarding usage of a brace, there is no case law, and hence no real answer to your question -- plenty of opinions though, if you'd like to embrace one of them.

- OS

True, speculation is all it really amounts too.
They seem to be a pretty popular way to build your SBR before the Tax stamp process.

Well, you don't need a brace at all to shoot your AR pistol relatively accurately, but a brace does allow accuracy equal to same config as an SBR.

- OS

Well, let's say, if a BATFE agent just happened to be present when you shouldered your AR pistol in a self defense situation you may be the first one prosecuted.  On the chance that he wasn't sure if It touched your shoulder, don't volunteer that information in your statement.  

I make it a point to practice shouldering mine on a moonless night in a dark closet.

Well my nanny cams would probably record the incendent.

There's a saying "shut up and shovel"
It's almost always wise to shut up, the shoveling part is optional.

I would say that in a life or death situation where you feel the need to fire your gun and you end up hitting the guy then it won't matter. More so, you could argue that under the stress induced by a life threatening situation that you shouldered the weapon. ATF would have no case and wouldn't win the case even if they decided to charge you. Remember, INTENT is one of the two things needed to convict. That being said, in a CQB situation in your house, I doubt you are going to need to shoulder it, buffer tube to cheek, or some other motion will probably suffice. As long as the shooting is justified, you are more than likely in the clear. Just remember, you won't see your AR for a long time.

I agree, I don't understand why everyone is compelled to add these things.

I shoot mine just fine with a cheek weld.

You use it for cheek weld, it never touched my shoulder, officer.

As a means of securely gripping mine in a CQB situation I treat it like I would any pistol, by bringing it as close to my body while still allowing me to utilize my sights.  It's not my fault the Stoner design of the weapon system limits just how close I can do that with my AR pistol.  The last thing you want to do when clearing a room/house/building/structure is to have your weapon extended far away from you where maintaining control is difficult, were someone behind a door or wall to try to grab it.  By tucking it as close as you can to you security of the weapon is maximized.  That pole sticking out the back of mine simply limits how closely I can pull it in to me.  I am therefore not "shouldering" anything, I am maintaining control of my weapon to prevent it from being taken from me.  For that same reason I hold it with 2 hands, just as I do with all of my pistols.

The AR pistol was, at one time, entirely legal with a standard carbine stock pinned at the shortest position. Then the ATF changed its ruling - which they can do. Congress delegated to them the nit picky aspects of enforcing the law and their regulations are the law unless the courts say otherwise.

That lack of policy and constant change is being questioned - the ATF has rooms of file cabinets with letters none of which are available for research. AN FOIA suit may wall open them up - and then some concrete and consistent rules be made. It could fall either way, and then Congress would have to get involved, which they eventually will.

For now, you buy a stripped lower as an other, build it FIRST as a pistol, then do what you like within the law. The braces have always been a highly suspect product from the start, and a lot of AR pistol owners avoided them. As said, the flat vertical surface on the end of a weapon that is primarily there to hold against your shoulder is considered a stock and the NFA says if it has a stock, it's a rifle, and rifles with barrels under 16" require a Stamp, $200, plus trust, and permission to transport over a state line.

How much accuracy said stock actually delivers is a matter of opinion as nobody seems willing to demonstrate it. Most of us acknowledge it can, and those with an open mind also acknowledge any pistol - down to a 2" barrel - can hit a target, often past 400 meter. It's a matter of skill, not ballistic impossibility.

The AR pistol is mostly intended for use out to 125 yards, it can hit out to 400, and right down to 21 feet or closer. At 125 yards it's usually a 2-3 MOA gun with careful shooting, even at 6MOA that's a 6" group. At 21 feet it's even better, aim center of mass and it's going to be a hit. That's with up to 77 grains with a poly tipped expansion bullet which expands well down to 1,800 fps. And you have 29 more to go.

The tradeoff is a lot of bulk, it's not a CCW - but keep the length under 26" and many states will treat it legally as one. That means loaded and concealed up front with the driver can be legal, where a "rifle" is considered not, due to anti poaching regulations. Rifles get unloaded cased in the trunk with ammo separate. If it's Stamped as an SBR, that "R" = rifle and that's how the law will treat it.

Aside from the Federal regs - which don't limit the barrel length of a pistol - there are state regulations which can and do alter your use to a much higher degree. It''s not all about the NFA, you must check your local laws, too, and since that is likely who the LEO will be working for who encounters it, you need to pay attention. HIS discretion is how the situation will be handled. An AR pistol up front in the open in Texas Ranch country may well prompt a quick demonstration to show the officer how it operates, in MO (where they are just as legal) during hunting season, I don't think so. Road Hunting is illegal and in November season it's a ticket. That's how much circumstances could vary.

There never will be any pat answers for the owner as his local laws and enforcement will determine what will happen. Don't assume, study, and know how it might be perceived. Avoiding the issue is better insurance than thinking you have a free pass - which is exactly how the ATF is getting enforcement. They aren't busting Joe Gunowner for stuff much, we simply adopt a head down attitude and they can't play Whack a Mole.

It's the guy with attitude who gets attention. once in the spotlight they will throw a lot of stuff to see what sticks.

Obviously, none of us would ever shoulder a pistol.

Technically speaking, I don't shoulder my rifles either. There's always at least .00001" between any rifle stock and my shoulder...and I can prove it because I can fit a piece of fabric between the two. Sometimes I use several layers of fabric as a "spacer" just to make sure no guns touch my shoulder.

Shouldering a pistol isn't illegal as of today.  However, converting a pistol add on item for use as a stock is not legal according to the ATF.   There is a difference.  

so what happened today to make this so?

I'm pretty sure he just meant "currently" or "to date".

- OS

Nothing happened to make it so.  The letter never addressed shouldering a pistol.  The letter was about using a brace as a stock.  And once again, there is a difference.  There's nothing prohibiting one from shouldering a Glock, you just can't put a brace on it and use that as a stock.  See the difference.  

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

Ok, I was thinking something "new" had happened.  Wishfull thinking huh!  
Thanks

Lighten up, Francis. How did you pick anything out of my post and think it was serious?

I wasn't grading the quality of your post.   I was just pointing out it's not illegal to shoulder a pistol for those that weren't aware.  Since the poster is a newbie, he may not be aware you can shoulder a pistol.

As for the other part of your post, yeah yeah, if you use a condom, technically you're not even touching.  Very amusing, good for you.

So to answer the OP question, current status.  Legal to shoulder a pistol, illegal to redesign a brace for use as a stock,  but this of course is just from a Federal enforcement position not an adjudicated one.  

OK, next step further.

Can he shoulder the buffer tube? Plenty of letters from the ATF up to the open Letter said, yes, and they haven't seemed to alter their position. There are those who are self appointed ATF agents and state the open Letter doesn't allow ANY contact of an AR pistol to the shoulder. Yet the letter is primarily focused on the Brace, not buffer tube, and those tube options that allow cheek welds are still selling briskly. As is the new brace on the market.

I'd post a pic, but, ya know, it's not allowed here.

Prime example of interpreting the letters to the most restricted view possible and then using that yardstick in discussions on the subject. And entirely why the ATF faces a FOIA suit to open the file cabinets. They are not in  the business of making it simple and easy. Obfuscation and dark hints serve better for their enforcement efforts, which are working.

As for getting the pistol accurate - some use a sling pushing forward and still shoot nose to the charging handle. All a stock does is stabilize the back of the gun to keep the sights from wobbling. So - hold it so the sights don't, squeeze with the front post in on target, and practice.

Nobody complains about their pre SBR pistol shooting badly or the huge improvement with the legal stock. What they talk about is "I have a Stamp and you don't." So, think about it. If you can hold well and hit steel at 400 m with a 6" .38 like the guys on youtube, then not having a stock won't be a challenge.

It's about skill, and the gun is short range anyway. It's the opposite of a sniper, lets not let them use that as a yardstick running it down, which gets done in some threads.

Ya know, I really hadn't read the Thordsen letter very carefully so know I'm not so sure.  I think obfuscation is the correct term the ATF is using to put "the fear" into people.  The whole issue won't be resolved until it's adjudicated.  I'm going to accept their premise that an add-on item approved for a specific purpose can be "redesigned and intended" for a different purpose.  I will not accept their premise that an integral part for the function of a handgun can be "redesigned and intended" for a different purpose.  That's just not possible.   If they're trying to suggest that placing a Glock against my shoulder makes it a short barreled rifle, they just need to get off the pipe.  

That being said, it's hard to know what the hell is going on.  When you have Scalia making statements that words don't mean anything anymore, you know we have problems.

http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/2675/atf_response_letter_for_ar_pistol_pack.pdf

Pure obfuscation:

"The receiver extension/buffer tube on an AR-type pistol serves a legitimate, vital function in the operation of the weapon system; and if utilized as originally designed is not considered to be a shoulder stock. Further, a pistol that has an AR-t1pe buffer tube or similar component assembled to it, which consequently allows for the installation of a saddle/cheek enhancement accessory, is not classified as a SBR; nor unlawful to possess"

A cane tip is "not a buttstock" letter:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/465457_.html

confusion is the name of the game all the way around, with these letters it seems.  the one part that Ive asked locally amongst enthusiast, ( you know those late night camp fire conversations and how they allways turn out...)

Pistol with "brace" don't shoulder it , general consensus all the way around

Pistol with "stock" = SBR, form 1 $200  

Now this one:  AR Pistol over 26" and not concealable becomes a "firearm", neither rifle nor SBR nor Pistol,  Ive read everything I can find and nothing says a "firearm" cant be shouldered.  Nor only held and operated one hand.  

Thoughts on the "firearm"  what am I not seeing here?

It will be interesting to see if there is ever a case where the shouldering is enforced...

- Note that this 26" "firearm" designation only applies when a vertical forward grip is attached.

- You are correct in that Mad Max's last missive only addresses a "pistol" or "handgun" with a brace attached, and only uses the word "firearm" in the sense of "NFA firearm".  


- OS

Not helping, but I would caution that if it's over 26", your locality may not perceive it as a pistol - and then CCW laws wouldn't apply. It may fall under "rifle" to them and that is where they would interpret the issue. VFGs are likely a worse grey area than the buffer tube. Install one on something under 26" and it's considered something not a pistol IIRC.

Which leads into "shooting with two hands," which is taught by the US.Gov for almost every pistol issued in the last 25 years. However, installing a front grip on a pistol isn't allowed. "Front grip" meaning that it's somehow interpreted as allowing a "vertical" grip. The Magpul AFG, tho, is not, and allowed.

All of this is only a snap shot of the current situation. The Administration is already planning to release further regulations this fall which are likely to restrict ammo, the use of certain firearms, and what can be discussed - literally printed or posted on the internet - because terrorists read forums. Therefore if it's anything proprietary about how guns work it may be considered .Gov property, including programming for CNC machining, and it would fall under ITAR as prohibited for export. Some claim it's already being overblown but the reality is that the informed are keeping it quiet.

I await with interest the first legal case involving a shouldered pistol brace.

I doubt that it will be a case just about that usage/firearm, but rather an "add-on" charge to other felonies.

The classification of a weapon as a SBR is for the weapon itself. In other words if it's a pistol as it lies there on the table, it's still a pistol when you put the shockwave up to your shoulder. There are no federal laws about how you must hold a particular firearm.

Most likely, these type of pistols will be covered by some executive action or a new interpretation of arm braces as stocks.

Administrative law is undergoing very intense judicial scrutiny these days given that some federal agencies are calling actions felonies that are not mentioned anywhere in the applicable statutes for such agencies and activities.
I still would not like to be on the receiving end of such prosecution, but I would like to follow such a case closely.

I really want to build an AR pistol with a brace... but this is all painfully goofy.

I'd be happy making an SBR if I didn't have to jump through even more hoops to carry it across state lines.

Currahe,

If you want an AR pistol, build one now. They are a lot of fun.
Pretend worst case scenario and they are somehow declared AOW or something similar. At that point you can rebuild it into something else, register it, or bury it in the ground.

In the meantime you're enjoying the shooting sports with a firearm that you've built yourself and understand well.
There's no downside.

I was just talking to a range buddy about this same thing, I haven't seen anything about not being able to shoulder a 26" firearms. I wish any firearms over 26" could have a stock no matter the barrel size!! The NFA laws are retarded!!

It's a bureaucracy.  They have incentive to keep everyone, especially those of us who must by force of law obey their stupid, confusing, arbitrary, and patently un Constitutional RULES, off balance and confused.  That way any bureaucrat can basically use their own interpretation of the "rules" and impose their will on "we the people" until someone has had enough and brings a suit against them.  Then they fold like a cheap suit and give up.  Recently they "propose" new rules or interpretations of laws, then step back and see how loud we all scream.  If we're distracted (for instance, with race riots incited by local/state/federal agency deliberate public statements and asinine behavior, they hope they can just keep turning the screws down until we have no rights left.  

Some of us pay attention.  

The idiocy that these (AR pattern) weapons are used in criminal activity including terrorism is completely destroyed by the government's own crime statistics.  They aren't used by criminals.  Probably because the only way to get an AR pistol is to build one or buy one from a reputable builder, and then after that if you don't know what you're doing when operating/cleaning it you end up with a single shot pistol within a thousand rounds.  Cheaper and easier to buy a couple of used AK or better yet five pump shotguns for your criminal activity instead of one finicky AR pistol.  

I'm still under 300 rounds through my carbine, and I can see where it's going to need detail cleaning soon.  My L1A1 has about 500 rounds since last cleaned, what, 5 years ago?  Might need a little oil on the rails.  Still throwing brass just fine.  Discovered a mag I haven't used since bought that doesn't like to feed, problem was the mag, the rifle is still perfect.  Try that with an AR.

Yes it will. In the mean time, I've always been perfectly happy with my padded buffer tube tucked on my cheek (proper eye relief to the weapon is easier this way anyway IMHO, than jamming a short tube/Sig Brace against my shoulder). Works just fine for me on this little baby.