I bought the Sig brace, and...you know the story...need to go ahead and SBR. Do not want to run into any "constructive intent" issues.

I own a suppressor, but when I went through that process the store guided me through the paperwork. I guess this is pretty much the same thing but it is intimidating as hell (infringement is a bitch). Please throw some tips my way, or maybe just a link to the FAQ that I was unable to find. This has to be a common question.

Go here.  Get yourself a Trust, plenty of companies are offering them these days.  Fill out eForm, wait 2-6 weeks, install stock once approved.

I really don't want to pay gobs of lawyer fees and make a big deal out of this. My sentiment is that it is already too intimidating as it is, and none of it should be necessary because I already have a handgun license. (Truly, what more could they ever need--if I wasn't qualified to own a a SBR then I sure as hell shouldn't be able to carry a pistol in public). That said, I don't mind waiting 10 months or more to make sure this is legit. If I ever want a second SBR then I'll almost certainly just buy a new upper for the registered lower and avoid any more of this BS.

You don't have to pay gobs of lawyer fees.  You can if you want to, but don't have to.

The only other NFA stamps I will probably ever need is for another suppressor. If it is truly worth the effort to setup a trust then please talk me into it, otherwise, I just want to make sure I'm taking the path of least resistance.

http://www.coyoterifleworks.com/nfa-trust/

$95 for setting up a trust sounds cool if it is legit. But do I need to setup a bank account too? If so that sure sounds like a PIA. And I've read that only a lawyer in my own state is the safest bet, and I bet that costs more than $100.

Since I am "building" this pistol using a separate upper and lower does that mean I use Form 1, and need to engrave the address as well? I don't plan on actually buying a stock for it, I just want to be able to shoulder the Sig brace without going to prison for ten years. That way is it still considered a pistol if I cross state lines (and don't shoulder it)?

No need for separate bank accounts for the trust.  You don't even have to pay the $95, there are examples of trusts that can be found online.  Yes you'll have to get the trust name, city, and state engraved on one of the receivers or the barrel.  Most people go with the lower.  If you choose to engrave the upper or barrel then each upper and/or barrel that you use with the registered lower will need to be engraved, hence why most go with engraving the lower.  If the manufacturer of your lower is in your city and state, then you won't have to engrave that again.  You are allowed to already existing markings such as the serial number, caliber, etc.

I used http://199trust.com/  I've one  SBR now and 2 (another SBR and a suppressor)  in the works using this trust.....Very simple and the rep is VERY helpful.  I had  a lot of questions and he was more than helpful.

My Suppressor dealer had a template to set up a trust for  my first suppressor. Once that was  done I used the same  trust  for a form 1 SBR and  recently ordered a Pistol  suppressor. Its easy after the  first one.
There have been  rumors the government wants to shut  down the  trust method. Who knows if that will happen but  it works now. If you think about it  the  government has  it made. They win as it is. They get  $200.00 for a stamp and they have a  registration system. Why would they want to stop a program when they get money and paid  to have a registration database. Not ideal  from our side. I feel  infringed don't you?

I just had my trust drawn up, lawyer met me at the local gun shop. $200

he'll walk you through the form1 process, answer your calls if you have questions later on about adding more trustees, firearms, beneficiaries, etc.

200$ to do it right with piece of mind.

I bought Quicken Willmaker 2008 off Amazon for 22 bucks. I have made 2 living trusts off it so far.  No problems at all. Having a lawyer do it is a waste of cash, it is as simple as filling in some blanks and having one sheet notarized.. I got an sbr lower for my pistol ( which was set up with a KAK super sig tube and a trimmed -up SB15) I gotta say i am underwhelmed at the handling differences.  Not worth the $200 bucks IMO. I still shoot my AR is the pistol form as i always have... with no problems.

You will need an approved Form 1 to construct a SBR.  Once the receiver is approved as an SBR it stays an SBR regardless of the "Temporary" reconfiguration.  You must retain all parts to put it back to the registered configuration.  If you want to "un-SBR" or "Permanently" reconfigure it you must notify the ATF. So your idea of switching back and forth between SBR and Pistol is not legal.

Notification is "recommended" but not necessary to either temporarily or permanently remove it from NFA purview.

Agreed that once SBR'd, it can never be a Title 1 pistol again, though, for at least two reasons:

- retention of parts that keeps it under NFA purview -- as long as there is a short barrel on it, it retains SBR status. Simply removing a stock from an SBR does not make it a pistol, you'd just be shooting an SBR without the stock, which is fine, but it's still not a pistol.

- when you SBR anything, you have made a new firearm with unique identification, and that firearm is a rifle, and "first a rifle, always a rifle". The Thompson Decision was not about NFA firearms, indeed the whole basis of it was that no NFA firearm was made going pistol-rifle-pistol with a Title 1 firearm.

- OS

while it is true that "once an sBR lower... always an SBR lower" It is very simple to go from pistol to sbr rifle to pistol, use the same upper and two lowers. a more sensible approach .. That isnt illegal.

True - I guess when the new buyer purchases the once SBR'd receiver and designates the Firearm Type in box 18 on the form 4473 as Handgun, Long Gun, or Other; that would suffice.


Per ATF:  https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html#receiver-sale

Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?

There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

Thx for this post. i could never figure out the logic behind this.

Nope. What an FFL puts on a 4473, correctly or incorrectly, does not determine actual legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of any future configuration of it.

If done correctly on 4473, all receivers are transferred as "other firearm" in field 18 and "receiver, lower receiver, etc" in field 29, whether new or used, but that does not mean a used one can be made into a legal pistol. Indeed, if you sell your SBR lower as a Title 1 (GCA)  firearm, it would not be legal for the next owner to make it into a pistol either. He could only make a legal Title 1 (GCA) rifle or register it as an SBR with a short barrel.

Further detail from same page of FAQs where you got your quote:

"Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?

   A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS...."

As has been said many times here, unless somehow you absolutely trust the seller as to the lower's history, it's best to make a pistol from a new virgin lower.


- OS

Good stuff.

Just an observation. An pistol length extension AR15 pistol with a 10.5" barrel with a muzzle device like a flamming pig or barking Spyder is nearly the same length as the old Olympic arms or Bushmaster CAR-15 with the 4.5 inch permanent flash hider. I am not sure what you gain with an SBR.
In my state you can CCW a pistol including an AR15 pistol for self defense. Can you CCW with an SBR? I actually don't know.

From speaking with a lawyer, because of what I read online, I was told to do so.

YMMV.

Adustable stock and you cant legally shoulder a pistol so it is less stable.  Those Krink wanna-be muzzle devices are heavy long things best left on AKs

ATF is all over the place with this just like they are with everything else.

If you title the gun, say bye to it being a legal pistol.
AR pistols may not seem to be concealable if you have a permit, but they can be carried concealed or not in your vehicle. (depending on state)
Why give up your advantage due to a stock law.

Or buy a second virgin lower, pistol buffer tube and LPK and build a pistol lower. That's about $150. Switch short upper as needed, depending on needs.

Some people cant buy shit over and over. This is not a hobby for some.

If firearm money is that tight, I'd opine that one shouldn't be throwing a couple hundred extra to BATF in the first place.

- OS

This. Once one starts getting into specialty firearms (NFA, AR pistols) then I'd say they've entered into the hobby phase. Or, more correctly, the BRD or stamp collecting phase.

I would disagree about the AR pistol being a "hobby." MOST guns are a hobby for us. If it's professional grade then you get it from the issuing armory pursuant to mission requirements.

The common concept of an AR pistol being a hobby runs along with them being spoken of as range toys. Maybe not so much if the bigger picture is taken in. In every other regard, an AR pistol can be identical to a MK18 or CQBR except in one specific legal aspect - it cannot have a "stock<" which has been defined in one ATF reply as a flat vertical surface held against the shoulder.

If a pistol was the first intent of the build, a "stock" was never part of it. And if a brace was intended, then the ATF seems to be saying Stamp it. It's a stock in sheeps clothing.

Do you need a stock on a short range close quarters weapon? Do you need to restrict how you can use and transport it to gain the alleged higher accuracy for stabilizing the rear of the gun?

How far can you shoot an AR pistol effectively? Not max range of the bullet, even a .22 can go two miles. Nobody can hit anything but mother earth trying, tho. Can you airm an AR pistol and hit something within the limit of the range you intend to shoot the furthest?

If it's 100m, then a  2MOA pistol should be able to bench rest in a vice at a 2" group. Good enough, but what about standing? The average target for a military weapon is the human torso, about 18" square, for deer hunting, about the same. That makes it an 18MOA target.

Can you shoot an 18MOA target at 100m with a 2MOA gun?

On the other end, the MK18 and CQBR are used on ship boarding parties and in urban assaults - much less range is needed, more like 21 feet. Exactly why handguns are often used. They lack two things, a 30 round capacity, and the much higher power of  rifle cartridge. Which makes the MK18 and AR pistol both a better tool.

Depends on your state laws, in MO an AR pistol is that, a pistol, and all CCW laws and hunting regulations apply. I can Open Carry it loaded legally. Sure, just because I can doesn't mean I should, but try it with an SBR and you could wind up in serious trouble. Rifles in MO fall under anti poaching laws with transportation unloaded cased in the trunk as a requirement. The AR pistol? Loaded concealed up front.

AR pistols can be transported across state lines at will IAW local laws, SBR's are required to have permission in writing from the ATF IN HAND. That requires advanced notice. And the other state may not allow them legally.

Add in that in MO the pistol can be used in more seasons where the rifle would be illegal. More hunting opportunities.

First built as a pistol, a lower could be a rifle and then back to a pistol. If it is Stamped as an SBR. then it's a "rifle" and remains such, as I read the law. It can't ever be a pistol again.

All counted in, with a $200 fee, trust fees, etc an SBR conversion could cost $350 - and the gun becomes restricted in use and transportation. A pistol offers the same ballistics and a lot more freedom.

I never saw the use of the brace as a major advantage - and considering the course of action, I'd just sell it and spend all the money on ammo to learn how to shoot it better. After all is said and done, the stock just stabilizes the back of the gun, it's a close range weapon not a ten ring precision shooter. If you can hit an 18MOA target at 100m you are plenty good enough for what it's for.

This is a very good argument for just keeping a pistol, which is what I plan to do. I will build a longer range fun as a rifle. The one I am building will Sta a pistol, not that awkward really, and no questions on intent. No braces planned either.

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