I understand it is now illegal to shoulder a brace, saddle, or buffer tube on an AR-15 pistol.

Is it legal to shoot an AR-15 pistol from a cheek weld? (No I'm not going to write the ATF).

There are no new laws and no laws have changed.  The which was legal before is still legal.  That which was illegal is still illegal.  The only thing that has changed is potential for enforcement.  That's probably gone up a notch.

So here's how I look at it.

If you purchased your firearm in the configuration that it's in, you can shoot it anyway you want.  (It's the ATF, FFL and manufacturers problem not yours, until you get a letter from one of them telling you different)

If you built a firearm with a design necessary for it's function, you can shoot it anyway you want.  

If you built something that looks like short barrel rifle and you shoot it like a short barreled rifle, the Feds will not be happy about it.  Your State may really not be happy about it.  

Just my opinion, it's worth nothing so feel free to share like all the others you read.

Thats a good question.. I do think that the way you use something with out any physical modification is considered redesign, but I am a levelheaded person that usually makes common sense judgments, and not the ATF.  The standard AR gas impingement pistol needs a buffer tube.. The sig XI pistol which does not need one is being manufactured from sig with a sig brace attached to a short tube?? I'm surprised the ATF even allowed that.. From what I have heard Sigs attorneys are going to take some legal action to get some clarification on the sig brace issue. As far as an AR pistol without a brace, my honest opinion  just keep on doing what you were doing..

It is legal to do a cheek weld. The BATF Tech Branch has approved (via "opinion letters") several devices that are to be SPECIFICALLY used for cheek welds. They would have not approved those devices if cheek welds were illegal. The only thing anyone needs to remember about AR Pistols in regards to how you hold them is that they cannot be shouldered without a tax stamp.

Wrong...
They cannot have a Stock.

If an AR-15 had a stock it wouldn't be a pistol. So his statement is not "Wrong."

Unless you put a stock on it and never shoulder it, thus "redesigning" it as a pistol If the ATF can redefine words then we can use their definition too!

You might want to pay special attention to the part where I said ".....in regards to how you hold them.....". And in what situation is it legal to put a stock on an AR Pistol other than receiving the required tax stamp? Because without the tax stamp I'm pretty sure no one that might be reading my previous comment is going to have a stock on an AR Pistol without the stamp. Am I missing something here?

Exactly!  :)

 

I've been wondering what would happen if someone SBRed their pistol but never put a stock on it and then shouldered it using the buffer tube pad, Sig Brace, or Thordsen Cheek Rest? Like some brave (or stupid?) people have  been doing without a tax stamp on YouTube. I will not be writing a letter to the ATF about it.

Nothing happens, it's still a SBR.



 

It seems the letter to Thordsen Customs from the ATF dated 12/18/14 gives the best guidance that a cheek weld is totally legal.  

http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.com/2675/atf_response_letter_for_ar_pistol_pack.pdf

Yep, nothing illegal about using your SBR without a stock. Heck, there's never been anything illegal about using a GCA rifle without a stock, as long as it remains 26" in OAL. Which is another precedent against this "redesigning" thing.

- OS

I started putting an AR pistol with Sig brace together a few months back with the understanding that it was, indeed, an AR pistol. Now with all the letters floating around about intent, barrel length, and overall length, I am damn confused. Here is what I have:

11.5" barrel
Pistol buffer tube (lower was sold & invoiced as a pistol lower)
Unpinned flash hider
Sig SB15 brace
AOL from end of flash hider to end of buffer tube 27.5"
AOL from end of barrel to end of buffer tube 26.25"

Note, I do not want to be the "poster boy" that challenges BATF in court. So, when I take this to the range, what are my shooting options and do I now need to get a tax stamp to shoot it?

As a side note, I was showing it to my son-in-law, who is a deputy sheriff, and the first thing he did was shoulder it and say how great it balanced. Wants me to let him know when I head to the range. I'm thinking about letting him shoot it for awhile and see what happens, LOL.

Nothing has changed about barrel length or overall length regarding firearms (except that a couple of rulings suggest an expansion of what is allowed on the ass end of one to count in OAL).

At any rate, federally:

- there is no barrel or overall length limit for a handgun/pistol
- muzzle devices do not count in barrel or overall length unless permanently installed
- 26" OAL or more, you may add a vertical forward grip to your pistol, at which time it becomes a non-NFA firearm, and a pistol again when it is removed

What has changed:

A mid level bureaucrat in an acting position at ATF says that if you shoulder your pistol via an installed stabilizing brace, you have created an illegal SBR. There is thus far no indication that his opinion will be enforced.

- OS

Best synopsis I've seen yet!  Bravo!

An I the only one that caught the very first sentence?  Its not ILLEGAL to shoulder a pistol with a pistol buffer tube.  Never has been.

So what is the ruling for all of the cane tips and tennis balls on a buffer tube? Doesn't that in fact change it also, as in a sig brace or thorsden cover. Weren't they originally placed and the ATF never batted an eye with those. Was it in fact once they started losing a lot of money in the form of Form1 tax stamps for SBR's because of the sig brace they got their panties in a bunch. So from what I can come up with is, it's all about the bottom line once again and truly not over a specific device? Am I wrong?

Doc

Nobody has issued an opinion the AR pistol is illegal or can't be shot with a cheek weld.

Think about things one step further. The use of a stock, brace or holding the buffer tube against the shoulder is to prevent the rear of the weapon from moving around while it's being sighted. Stabilize it and only the front moves - at which point it's a shooter skill issue.

What is NOT a major issue is recoil. The AR pistol in 5.56 isn't a bib bad magnum that needs a lot of control. It is, in point of fact, a very light recoil battle weapon and the 5.56 was specifically chosen to enhance it.

If you can control the rear of the weapon and keep it from bobbling around, then holding it against your shoulder isn't needed. All you still need to do is exactly what you had to do before.

What are others doing that IS legal to control the rear of the pistols and keep it stabilized?

Slings to brace up against the other two legal hands holding it. Slings are legal.

Cheek weld. Cheek welds are legal.

Chin weld. It's been done, the problem is most won't even try. Legal.

What others are there?

Instead of worrying about the loss of a flat vertical surface to hold against your shoulder - which a pistol by definition NEVER had, maybe it's time to start working on solutions - which is exactly what SB Tactical did. Goes to exactly what was originally "intended" about having one to begin with. If it was a pistol then shooting it like one is the real purpose - not 'redesigning" it to shoot like an SBR.

There never would have been a letter if shooters had worked with it as it was and tried to practice with it instead of accessorizing it with a prosthetic device to make up for their lack of skill. The only thing that has changed is that we are right back where we were two years ago and nothing has actually changed.

There was no enforcement then, and it remains to be seen what constitutes enforcement now. At worst the supporters of the 2A are the ones who are becoming the major obstacle to it's use.

There's a rubber cover on one and a furniture tip on my other. They are there to avoid the awful sound of bare extension tube on hard floors and to avoid the inevitable slippage that would occur otherwise. They've been designed or redesigned, made or remade to be prop rods.