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Page AR-15 » AR Pistols
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 12/17/2014 6:29:32 PM EDT
Looking into something to take on as a project, and I've come across the AR Pistol idea. Ive seen that there are restrictions for a SBR so I dont want to get into all that, which lead me to the AR Pistol.

So, my question is, what do you need to build a AR Pistol? Also, are there variants as far as caliber? Meaning can you have a 9mm or .223/5.56 or being that it is an AR does that mean its only 223 or 5.56. My questions are elementary because Im still very new to AR-15 as a whole. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 6:40:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:

So, my question is, what do you need to build a AR Pistol?
View Quote


A lower that did not begin life as a rifle. Otherwise, assembly is same as an AR rifle, sans a stock. Federally, there is no barrel or overall length restriction either.

Only thing different that most folks do is to use a "pistol" buffer tube rather than an adjustable carbine one, but that is not required by federal law.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 8:09:03 PM EDT
[#2]
So do I need a "complete lower" and a "complete upper" that just doesnt have a 16 inch barrel? I dont want to accidently end up with a SBR because I didnt understand what was needed.

meaning
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/15072/category/4282/

and what other parts? I totally lost
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 8:23:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Or if I were to buy this, what else would be needed
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-forged-upper-lower-combo
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 9:16:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So do I need a "complete lower" and a "complete upper" that just doesnt have a 16 inch barrel? I dont want to accidently end up with a SBR because I didnt understand what was needed.

meaning
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/15072/category/4282/

and what other parts? I totally lost
View Quote


I just told you that federally no barrel length is illegal on a pistol. Most of course, use 11.5 to 7.5. 10.5 and 7.5 make up the majority.

Obviously, you cannot use the stock on that config you showed. The product you link will work of course, it's just "other firearm", even with the stock on it, but you're buying an unnecessary stock, and will likely want a different buffer tube also.

If you don't want to build your on lower and gonna  buy a complete one, might as well get one already "pistol" configured. PSAs go on sale frequently, here's one for less; the PTAC line is PSAs econo line but would likely suffice just fine. The upper is much more important that the lower on any AR.



http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18838/s/ptac-complete-classic-pistol-lower-no-magazine-black/

You may want to investigate other options here in forum though, especially if you want to use a SIG pistol brace, since there are a variety of buffer tube options that optimize use of that.

- OS







Link Posted: 12/17/2014 9:22:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Or if I were to buy this, what else would be needed
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-forged-upper-lower-combo
View Quote


The other 30 or so parts needed for a complete AR, same as a rifle. If you are not trolling, best go back to assembly part of the forum and study up on how to assemble an AR.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 9:38:10 PM EDT
[#6]
You can't use a stock on a pistol, but you can use a Sig SBX brace. I just got mine ($109) and it feels just like a stock. My complete pistol lower from PSA ($139) should arrive in a week or two, and that is the only part that needs delivered to an FFL. Now I can do any length upper I want.

As stated, you cannot use a lower from a rifle to make a pistol, even with the SBX, so buy or build a dedicated pistol lower. Supposedly you can put any upper on a pistol lower, just not the other way around. Oh, and don't ever put a VFG on a pistol.
Link Posted: 12/17/2014 9:56:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
....Oh, and don't ever put a VFG on a pistol.
View Quote


Unless the pistol is 26" or more in legal overall length, then it magically becomes legal, creating a non NFA firearm.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 5:43:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You can't use a stock on a pistol, but you can use a Sig SBX brace. I just got mine ($109) and it feels just like a stock. My complete pistol lower from PSA ($139) should arrive in a week or two, and that is the only part that needs delivered to an FFL. Now I can do any length upper I want.

As stated, you cannot use a lower from a rifle to make a pistol, even with the SBX, so buy or build a dedicated pistol lower. Supposedly you can put any upper on a pistol lower, just not the other way around. Oh, and don't ever put a VFG on a pistol.
View Quote


If the pistol is 26" or over you can add a VFG it then it is no longer a pistol but an non NFA firearm. You can use any length barrel you want per federal law, but state laws may be different so always check those as well. For instance here in MN I can not a VFG even if 26" or over because it becomes a SBR under state law even if federal law says it's fine. Also in MN the barrel has to be less than 16" to be considered a pistol, any longer than 16" and it becomes a rifle.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 11:44:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The other 30 or so parts needed for a complete AR, same as a rifle. If you are not trolling, best go back to assembly part of the forum and study up on how to assemble an AR.

- OS
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Or if I were to buy this, what else would be needed
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-forged-upper-lower-combo


The other 30 or so parts needed for a complete AR, same as a rifle. If you are not trolling, best go back to assembly part of the forum and study up on how to assemble an AR.

- OS


Not trolling, sorry for the lack of knowledge on the topic. Ive read that with a complete lower and a complete upper, thats everthing I need. I guess I was wrong in that.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 11:58:02 AM EDT
[#10]
If you buy a complete upper and a complete pistol lower, then yes, that is all you need, aside from sights or optics.

Buying a complete upper and a complete lower and putting them together isn't really building a rifle.   That's kinda like buying a boat and buying a trailer,  putting the boat on the trailer,  then declaring that you built it.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 11:59:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I just told you that federally no barrel length is illegal on a pistol. Most of course, use 11.5 to 7.5. 10.5 and 7.5 make up the majority.

Obviously, you cannot use the stock on that config you showed. The product you link will work of course, it's just "other firearm", even with the stock on it, but you're buying an unnecessary stock, and will likely want a different buffer tube also.

If you don't want to build your on lower and gonna  buy a complete one, might as well get one already "pistol" configured. PSAs go on sale frequently, here's one for less; the PTAC line is PSAs econo line but would likely suffice just fine. The upper is much more important that the lower on any AR.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/269x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/y/cyber_ptacpistol_cc.jpg

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18838/s/ptac-complete-classic-pistol-lower-no-magazine-black/

You may want to investigate other options here in forum though, especially if you want to use a SIG pistol brace, since there are a variety of buffer tube options that optimize use of that.

- OS


Thanks for that link. I knew that you cant have a stock on it, I just didnt see one without the stock like you sent me when I was looking on PSA or for a reference. I see a lot of people speak highly of PSA, so im not against that for this. So, allow me to ask how or where do you look for a "COMPLETE PISTOL UPPER" because all the searches for uppers lead me to options with 16 inch barrels, which I obviously dont want for this. Ive checked out the Diamondback AR Pistol and its MSRP is about 8 and change, I want to price this out and see how much it would cost to build on on my own... or if I should scrap the whole idea.




View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
So do I need a "complete lower" and a "complete upper" that just doesnt have a 16 inch barrel? I dont want to accidently end up with a SBR because I didnt understand what was needed.

meaning
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/15072/category/4282/

and what other parts? I totally lost


I just told you that federally no barrel length is illegal on a pistol. Most of course, use 11.5 to 7.5. 10.5 and 7.5 make up the majority.

Obviously, you cannot use the stock on that config you showed. The product you link will work of course, it's just "other firearm", even with the stock on it, but you're buying an unnecessary stock, and will likely want a different buffer tube also.

If you don't want to build your on lower and gonna  buy a complete one, might as well get one already "pistol" configured. PSAs go on sale frequently, here's one for less; the PTAC line is PSAs econo line but would likely suffice just fine. The upper is much more important that the lower on any AR.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/269x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/y/cyber_ptacpistol_cc.jpg

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18838/s/ptac-complete-classic-pistol-lower-no-magazine-black/

You may want to investigate other options here in forum though, especially if you want to use a SIG pistol brace, since there are a variety of buffer tube options that optimize use of that.

- OS


Thanks for that link. I knew that you cant have a stock on it, I just didnt see one without the stock like you sent me when I was looking on PSA or for a reference. I see a lot of people speak highly of PSA, so im not against that for this. So, allow me to ask how or where do you look for a "COMPLETE PISTOL UPPER" because all the searches for uppers lead me to options with 16 inch barrels, which I obviously dont want for this. Ive checked out the Diamondback AR Pistol and its MSRP is about 8 and change, I want to price this out and see how much it would cost to build on on my own... or if I should scrap the whole idea.





Link Posted: 12/18/2014 12:29:00 PM EDT
[#12]
OP didn't want the complication of SBR, AOW is just as silly.

Build or buy your lower like any other AR, keep in mind there is a concern that the buffer tube shouldn't accept a stock that is on hand. As in, Hi, Warden, no I wasn't using a rifle out of season, this is a pistol. That stock, nope,no mine, didn't even see it until you pointed at it. No, I have no idea how a matching stock with an identical sling swivel would just happen to be right there. Strange coincidence."

Well, Gibbs rules say there are no coincidences. If that sounds like a silly conversation, rest assured you can find posts even worse suggesting the ATF will have a search warrant and SERT team to break down your door and literally measure the distance from your pistol in the gun locker to any stock you happen to own in the box of AR parts in the closet. Lots of people on the internet like to play chicken with the concept to impress others.

Pistol tubes are just as cheap and the SiG brace seems to fit them better anyway. Your choice.

The only other issue is that the lower may not have previously existed as a completed rifle. It's another part of the arcane and confusing rules about pistols vs SBRs that the ATF has been working with since 1934. The AR15 has really thrown them for a loop as the design did things nobody anticipated.

As for the upper barrel length is likely a State regulated issue - or not. Check your laws for application. Barrel length for AR pistols is caliber dependent. In short and somewhat general terms, the ballistics of operating the action are more important than the downrange results. If it won't cycle, what good is it?

6.8spc, down to 8", 10-12 is considered optimal.
5.56, down to 7.5, the military spec is 10.5 in the Mk18. 7.5 pistols are notoriously finicky and extremely loud with nearly twice the gas pressure at the muzzle as a 10".
.300BO down to 8"
6.5G down to 8" but optimal cycling is longer.
Pistol calibers like 9mm are largely 7.5 as the ammo was developed for pistols. Natch.

Given the SIG Brace and explosion of Mk18 lookalikes, I would question whether 7.5 remains a front runner much longer. Most current builds seem to be the last hideout of the quad rail due to the MK18. It makes the pistol nose heavy, and adds complications if it covers the muzzle device. Using a compensating brake that diverts gasses up and back will increase the noise at the shooters ear - and anyone close by. The military uses suppressors and a linear device to throw all the sound forward is the better solution.

Lots are building railed guns for an optic, but the alternative of a handguard and iron sights isn't dead yet. The pistol is a 200m gun, and a GI spec 2MOA barrel will hit a 4 inch circle at that range. A freefloat won't deliver as much accuracy improvement as it would on a rifle, especially if a rear single point sling isn't pulling the barrel off the target. And if used as a truck gun or in hard duty, a red dot optic has the annoying lack of a warranty to cover the glass lenses, which are not shatterproof by any means.

Why would they want to do that?

Like the AR15, you build the pistol for a specific use, and then tailor the parts to fit what you need to do. Range and target. Bermblaster to impress others, go for all the tacticool stuff. Trunk monkey gun, maybe handguards and iron sights for reliability and durability bouncing around in a vehicle. There's not just one way to do it, a quick look back in history will show the CAR Commando with carry handle was being made almost 50 years ago. All we do now is delete the stock.

Good luck with the project, finished my lower last night and plan to hunt Monday with a 6.8 16" upper pinned on.



Link Posted: 12/18/2014 12:57:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Glad to hear of your build going on, and to the previous post, I understand the statement of its not really built, assembled or whatever. Im not going to flood the net with pics saying I built this, Im just trying to see if I can save some money buying said needed parts and having it assembled.

So my research today on this matter, paired with your help and insight has led me to this...
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/ar-15-pistol-upper-receiver-kit-prod72349.aspx &
http://www.surplusammo.com/saa-billet-5-56-8-1-7-carbine-length-ff-tube-dragons-head-complete-pistol-upper-receiver/

Not saying that I'd buy either, but Id like to buy in such a fashion as a PACKAGE, take it to the gunsmith and go back in 2 days and its assembled.

Would it be better so buy a stripped upper, and get my own BCG, barrel, forward assist, charging handle, gas block.. im sure im missing something....
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:08:28 PM EDT
[#14]
ive built four ar pistols

4.5" barrel .22

7.5" barrel 5.56

10.5" barrel 5.56

7.5" barrel 7.62x39
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:13:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
ive built four ar pistols

4.5" barrel .22

7.5" barrel 5.56

10.5" barrel 5.56

7.5" barrel 7.62x39
View Quote


What would you say for the 5.56 variations whats the total cost to build? Just for an idea, as I know specific  "upgrades" will cost more and might have inflated your number.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:33:09 PM EDT
[#16]
i dont keep track because it saddens me lol. ive built about 12 ars for myself along with a few factory guns. never wanted to know what i have tied up just in ars
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 2:44:50 PM EDT
[#17]
HAHA..... I understand. I'm hoping to be able to do this for about 600. I want good parts though, not just anything for the sake of having an AR Pistol. Most of my info seems to send me to PSA for parts, I like rainier arms site also.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 3:42:17 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Not trolling, sorry for the lack of knowledge on the topic. Ive read that with a complete lower and a complete upper, thats everthing I need. I guess I was wrong in that.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Or if I were to buy this, what else would be needed
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-forged-upper-lower-combo


The other 30 or so parts needed for a complete AR, same as a rifle. If you are not trolling, best go back to assembly part of the forum and study up on how to assemble an AR.

- OS


Not trolling, sorry for the lack of knowledge on the topic. Ive read that with a complete lower and a complete upper, thats everthing I need. I guess I was wrong in that.


Ignore that man. Yes, all you need is a "complete" upper and lower. Or, you can built and upper and/or lower separately. I think his definition of "trolling" is a bit off.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 4:09:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Ignore that man. Yes, all you need is a "complete" upper and lower. Or, you can built and upper and/or lower separately. I think his definition of "trolling" is a bit off.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Or if I were to buy this, what else would be needed
http://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-forged-upper-lower-combo


The other 30 or so parts needed for a complete AR, same as a rifle. If you are not trolling, best go back to assembly part of the forum and study up on how to assemble an AR.

- OS


Not trolling, sorry for the lack of knowledge on the topic. Ive read that with a complete lower and a complete upper, thats everthing I need. I guess I was wrong in that.


Ignore that man. Yes, all you need is a "complete" upper and lower. Or, you can built and upper and/or lower separately. I think his definition of "trolling" is a bit off.


I wasn't being flip. This was the product he linked to above, asking "what else would be needed"?



So I said either trolling or needs to study up on building an AR.  Since looks like not the first, then feel free to go ahead and have at the tutorial on building an AR from scratch in this thread.

- OS
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 5:55:50 PM EDT
[#20]
^
I now see what you are pointing out about the picture as its a stripped lower and upper, which I didnt realize at the time, so ideally Id be buying a complete lower, and then probably a complete upper.... unless its better to piece the upper together to get better quality than I can get in a complete upper.
Link Posted: 12/18/2014 7:00:20 PM EDT
[#21]
I think the best way to go with this is purchase that PSA complete lower. Then possibly a stripped upper receiver, I see PSA and Bravo offer stripped uppers with blemishes for a good price. I'd then just need a BCG, charging handle, forward assist, gas block and gas tube and whatever length barrel and a handguard . I'm not finding many complete uppers with a 10 inch or shorter barrel, Maybe I'm not looking in the right places I dont want to buy a complete upper and then it comes with a 16 in barrel with an A2 front site, then Im stuck with things I dont want...
Link Posted: 12/20/2014 4:22:07 AM EDT
[#22]
right now, unless you have something special in mind, you cant beat the $599 pistol deals @ primary arms. word has gotten out, so you may have to look frequently as to what is in stock. i've recently built two pistols using the PSA complete pistol lowers & hardened arms complete uppers. bought those from their gunbroker auctions & paid about $235 to my door. added NiB bcg's & by the time i was done, i was at the $600 mark which is about the same as the PA deals.i still have another one of the lowers & am trying to decide between a 9mm or 7.62x39 pistol build.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 12:17:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Im now making my parts list to begin the year with a project. Im looking at barrels, still not sure if I want to go 7.5 or 10.5 yet, reading up on the differences and reasons. I also have long arms and I think the 10.5 might be a bit more comfortable and I've heard the 7.5's sometimes have issues. Anyone have any barrel recommendations as far as brand? I see Radical Firearms is under 100 on Primary arms for barrels. Is chrome moly the way to go or is there another type of coating I should look into?
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 5:22:00 PM EDT
[#24]
the lower build is easy. no real special tools are needed.
assembling the upper requires at least one special tool if not 2, so I find it is cheaper to buy a complete upper rather than build.
the shorter the barrel gets, the more expensive the upper seems to be.
The cheapest I have seen say a 7 inch upper in 223 for is around 450. where as you can get complete 16 inch uppers for around 300-350.
if you are willing to gamble on the upper there are a few in the 350 range. but the reivews are hit and miss on those.

for the lower you can buy one when psa has a sale complete for around 129, and that ptac for 109.

if you were to build it, 50 for a blem lower, 50 for a lpk and 35 for a pistol buffer tube kit from RRA would put you about 5 bucks over psa's completed price.

other cailbers would just be a different upper for say 300 black.


9mm would be a different upper, buffer and a mag block to allow you to put in a different mag type.
Link Posted: 1/6/2015 6:42:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
the lower build is easy. no real special tools are needed.
assembling the upper requires at least one special tool if not 2, so I find it is cheaper to buy a complete upper rather than build.
the shorter the barrel gets, the more expensive the upper seems to be.
The cheapest I have seen say a 7 inch upper in 223 for is around 450. where as you can get complete 16 inch uppers for around 300-350.
if you are willing to gamble on the upper there are a few in the 350 range. but the reivews are hit and miss on those.

for the lower you can buy one when psa has a sale complete for around 129, and that ptac for 109.

if you were to build it, 50 for a blem lower, 50 for a lpk and 35 for a pistol buffer tube kit from RRA would put you about 5 bucks over psa's completed price.

other cailbers would just be a different upper for say 300 black.


9mm would be a different upper, buffer and a mag block to allow you to put in a different mag type.
View Quote



Im going to a complete lower from PSA, and the upper I will sort out on my own. I have a guide for a $700 AR Pistol build that im using as reference.
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