So I have noticed a lot of people (no names will be said) here just down right hate Sig SB15 and get bitchy when other people use them. I would get it if you don't like the SB15 and do not put one on your own pistol. But I have seen these people upset with others who use SB15. Is it fear? Do they think if we use SB15, it will somehow ruin AR pistols? Is it just to be a jerk to people? There are plenty of things I don't like, but I don't get pissy when others like those things I dislike. Help me (us) understand this hate for SB15s.

I've noticed the same thing.
I don't get it.

If another guy wants to shoot his pistol with pink flip flops on the tube, more power to him.

I was never really interested in a AR pistol until I saw the Sig brace.

I'm not a therapist, so I don't know why people do what they do.

All I know is I like the SB15.  I'm not one to be concerned with looks, but I don't mind the way the SB15 looks.  What matters to me is performance and the SB15 has worked well for me.

I could care less what some people think on an internet forum.  If people stop being so concerned about other people's opinion, the world would be a better place.

Like the brace, GREAT.

Dislike the brace, GREAT.

We are all entitled to our opinions.  I will continue to support the brace.  

Now, c'mon shockwave get your approval letter, so I can buy even more braces at half the cost of the SB15.

It goes both ways. I'm fine without it but often get "put a brace on it" or "buy a stamp" comments here.

Who cares?

ARFCOM is rife with the hate of fat neck bearded middle aged basement dwellers.

It's the internet people have over the top opinions about shit that doesn't matter and like to tell other people they are wrong and idiots because their opinion differs ever so slightly...

That's why

I've heard the "it's too heavy" comment quite often as well. I like it, so I choose to use it.

This. I think the main reason people do not like it is the price. I bought my brace for $120 the KAK tube was $40. $40 more and I could have gotten a stamp, which is why I am selling it and doing just that.

 

It's a human response.  First it's a form of tax evasion.  The $200 stamp is a tax in the States that allow SBRs.  Regardless of the cost equivalency it's still tax evasion.  Second, and this is my personal opinion, it exists because of the American Disability Act.  The Government seems very very relaxed on anything that can be shoveled into the ADA.  I think people have the same response at some level to the young person who parks up front in the handicapped spot because they're driving grandma's wagon and gets away with it because it has a handicapped plate or placard.

It's a human response of people taking advantage of a loophole.  Sort of like what the bullet button is to some Democrats.

I don't like them only because I wasn't smart enough to think of it myself.  Hats off to Alex Bosco.

I'll mirror the "to each their own" comments...I could not care less what others have and refuse to bash them for their choices.

But...I don't like the SIG brace...and yes, I had one.

Here's my reasoning for disliking it:

It's big...and ugly...and stinking heavy...and unnecessary...

The SIG + buffer tube weighed in at 18oz...which is a ton given total weapon weight of my AR pistol was 7lbs at the time.

Having never shot an AR pistol, I had myself 100% convinced I needed that SIG before I even took it out and shot it. The day I got it, I took it out to make sure it cycled fine pre-mods, I was shocked to see how easy it is to shoulder with just a buffer tube. My only complaint was that the stock pistol buffer tube was too short (something the KAK fixes)

I look at it this way...the SIG offers zero rise on cheek weld and you shouldn't mod the thing given it's status/purpose. So basically it gives you a larger area to press against your shoulder. If the pistol buffer tube is no big deal to shoulder...what is the point of the SIG?

I wrapped the KAK in paracord doubling up at the end of the firearm (I secured it with black athletic tape BTW). The double wrap added about 1/4" of rise for a cheek weld. I'm actually contemplating doing it again and using a triple wrap at the end for even more. It's perfectly comfortable...and much lighter...




So...to each their own. If one likes the SIG brace...by all means. I, on the other hand, gave it a good try and decided it wasn't for me.

I think you have avoidance and evasion mixed up - and neither really apply.  Let alone assuming that ones only intent with the product is to somehow "cheat" or "get one over on the man".

I'll be flat out honest...it was for me. Here in Illinois, you only have a remote chance of owning a SBR is you are first a C&R dealer. it's a retarded loophole but that is literally the ONLY way tog get any SBR. If not...you're SOL.

I'd gladly get a stamped SBR but there is no way I'm applying for my C&R to get it...so the SIG brace was definitely a way to "cheat" the system...the funny thing is the system I was trying to cheat was Illinois...not the ATF...

it's the Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge argument of the firearm world....

It actually neither, it's only a perception.  The whole handicap parking thing is real, though.  Pisses me off.

I should have been clear - those terms usually apply to income tax, which is mandatory, not discretionary, like the NFA tax.  You can choose not to get an SBR, but you are going to pay your income tax or face consequences.

I understand what you mean about why you chose the brace, and I am sure that is very common, but it cant be said to be the only reason someone buys it. I'm not making any judgement about right or wrong here, just saying we cant assume one way or the other.

This, and there really isn't any other way to say it.

Too many people with 15,000 posts, and not enough that actually shoot their rifles. Too many people with far too many opinions on everything, in a hobby that is far too expensive (at least since Sandy Hook when the industry blew up) to develop first hand knowledge of every single product. Too many people mistaking their limited experience and thousands of hours logged on a keyboard for an explicit mastery of all things firearms.


I started building pistols before the SB15 ever came out because I had a windfall and thought they looked cool, and the industry was doing a lot of research and testing in shorter barrels and pistol products. The SB15 gave pistols more mass appeal than SBRs, and I guess that bothers people that went in other directions and have $1000 in tax stamps for SBR lowers (1000$ in paper that really doesn't give the firearm any more functionality than what a pistol with an SB15 has).


I've noticed that neckbeards (using that as a general term for people that spend more time online dealing with a subject than in the world participating in that subject) are far too affected by Internet discussion. They're the people that will spend days arguing through a 14 page thread without saying anything more than they said in their first post, and can't bear the thought of making their case in one post and moving on, and letting others decide for themselves. If they post more than 3 times on a discussion that is obviously focused on a simple  matter of taste, and not a complex subject that requires a lot of information exchange, it's pretty clear that there are other motives at play in their mind than positive online discussion. Ad Hominem attacks, fanboyism, and repetitiveness are all call signs of the neckbeard. They care way too much about what happens on the Internet, and don't have any recourse  besides propaganda and trying to influence their world (which ARFCOM is probably a big part of it).  


I don't even own an SB15, but have used them and no matter what kind of assumptions people make, it is almost indistinguishable from a fixed stock when it comes to the primary function of a stock. Do I prefer a stock? Yes, but it isn't because a stock is so much superior for shouldering a weapon, but more because it is tailored to that use alone. The political and legal obstacles associated with the debate definitely play a role in the SB15's popularity, but we had poorly designed shouldering mechanisms long before the SB15 - like the buffer tube itself, crutch tips, and a few other products - the SB15 is not a poor substitute like the others.


Overall the attitude on the forums really hurts this place, and makes it less valuable. Nobody is objective anymore, and personal preference is leading to 12 page Colt vs. KAC threads every other day. It would be alright if the preference was based on anything substantial, but it's just based on brand loyalty.

I think you and I would get along just fine. I post here fro time to time and that's about it. The internet can be a great source of info but good grief, do you have to sort through the desktop commandos to get to the good stuff.

This site can be brutal with the fanboy or misinformation bullcrap...it's thick at times and I normally I just abandon a thread once it happens.

My favorite at the moment? "I would/would not trust my life to xxx product"...like the vast majority have ever had to trust their life to a firearm...LOL. (and yes...I'm in the vast majority who haven't had to)



*EDIT*
I'd trust my life to a freaking butter knife if it was all I had at the time...LOL...

Soooooooooooooooooooo is anybody going to say anything actually technical in here or can we get this kicked to GD where it belongs?

Yes.

Technically...It's big...and ugly...and stinking heavy...and unnecessary... ANNNNDDD...expensive for being a big rubber gun-dildo...

The Sig dildo is retarded, and looks retarded on all four of my pistols.  The SBX looks less retarded.  I love/hate the brace.

I like the pistol nub look. It takes me back to my roots.

The only grip with the Sb15 could be that your ear protection hits it when using a scope due to it's thick profile.

Other than that don't knock the ATFs gift to pistol owners. Just be happy its approved.

And no one hated on the SBX prior to it's release, most said it looked like shit.  The braces are what they are and aren't going to win a beauty pageant but they are functional.  As weight is concerned it's all personal perception as there are plenty of real stocks on the market that tip the scales north of the braces.  I have had one pistol for years prior the sig thing and it is still sporting its RRA tube, just wish it a tad bit more length that the other one I built has with the KAK tube.

I swear I'm going to build an AR10 meant for pinging steel at 800 yards and put a SB brace on it just to piss people off

This! Plus the way IL's CCW laws are written, I can have that AR Pistol in my vehicle, at arms length with a mag in the well. I have the Sig PM400, I don't see the brace as a pain and will say that Sig is one of the smoothest shooting guns I have, muzzle rise is non-existent.

Hey it's AR15.com people talk crap, it's the way it is.

I have AR 3 pistols with SigTacs on them.

Do they work well as a stock? Absolutely, especially if you use the supplied rear Velcro strap to keep the flaps snugged together. They are fairly middle-of-the-road weightwise, but are a bit wider than most "stocks".

Are they fugly? Yes, but some people care more about function than winning gun porn beauty contests.

I would rather pay an innovator <$150 and have instant gratification than pay $200 for a tax stamp, wait a year or more, and have a paperwork hassle every time I want to cross a state line. And getting a tax stamp defeats the point of doing a build from an 80% lower.

IMO most of the hate comes from people who have never actually fired a gun wearing one.

I hesitated for the longest time on getting one, but finally did. I am very happy with it and am amazed at how rigid/well built it is.

There are a couple of aspects of the "hate" I see.
"I paid my $200 so you should to."
"I don't care what your needs and reasons are.  If you don't do it the way I did it, you're wrong."

This kind of thing shows up in all manner of discussion.  A favorite "hate" topic on Jeep forums comes from the folks that get all bent out of shape because someone has the gall to buy a 4x4 Jeep and just use it to run around town.  If a pavement driver dares to modify his Jeep with off-road type things like over size tires, suspension lifts, winch,... the Jeep should be confiscated, the owner executed, and all living family members thrown in prison.

They're ok, but sometimes they seem kinda long.  I prefer mine to have the option of being a little more compact!



       
 

With a standard pistol buffer tube, they are EXACTLY the same length as a standard carbine stock fully retracted. Some people (myself included) use the extended pistol tubes so that we aren't picking our noses with the charging handle each time we fire a shot. But this isn't need for children or shorter folk in general.

I think you should look at my SBR's again.  They're shorter than the brace will ever be, and they extend to my preferred length rather easily.



 

Blah blah blah... It's all relative to the use of the shooter. The sig brace works for him and the lwrc ucic works for you. The irony of your posts in this thread is staggering.

I have a brace, I've been thinking about selling it as I'm normally pretty happy with a bare tube on my pistols.  The brace isn't very comfortable to actually strap to your arm.  I've been thinking about trying a Thorsden tube with the cheek weld, but haven't done it yet.  For most of my shorties I just went ahead and did the paperwork.  I like how adjustable it is.



 

S'all good brotha. If it works for you then more power to you. I'd be willing to wager that most all of those with braces on their pistols would love nothing more than to throw a collapsible stock on their pistols. But I'd also be willing to wager that most of those with "stamped" SBR's would love to have some of the advantages (crossing state lines, keeping loaded in their vehicles etc) people with sig braces have. Thats why I'm completely satisfied with them both being available rather than just having one or the other. It benefits everyone.

There are 3 types of people who dislike the SB-15 (and the new one, whatever it's called)

1) Petty crybabies who are upset that you didn't pay $200 for an SBR stamp like they did.
2) Tories who are cowards and yes-men that wet the bed when any free man takes a stand.
3) People who have a legitimate reason like its heavy weight.


I can respect #3, but #1 and #2 are losers.

Re: #3... The SB-15 weighs in at 11.89 oz, Magpul STR weighs in at  12.3 oz and the Magpul CTR weighs in at 8.8 oz. Slightly lighter than an STR and a bit heavier than a CTR is not too bad.

And SBX brace is 9.8 oz.

- OS

It's in the same weight range as several of the more robust Magpul and other stocks. The only real disadvantage is the lack of length adjustment.

Good idea, make it a 15.5 inch barrel while you're at it. Then make your 800 yard shots with iron sights.

Repeating an untruth repeatedly doesn't make it any less untrue. A standard pistol buffer tube and a standard carbine buffer tube both stick out of the back of the receiver 7". Both the brace and and the stock also happen to be 7" long, so that their back ends are flush with the end of the buffer tube. If you like a really short stock, it's just as easy to get that with a brace as it is with a stock.

The only disadvantage of the brace is it is not as convenient to change the LOP as a stock.

All three of those SBR's have UCIW stock kits on them.  They are a little over an inch shorter than a standard buffer tube.  They use a shortened buffer and flat wire spring.

 

when I bring my pistol to the range, half of the people I meet seem programmed to say GET A SIG BRACE even if they have never actually used one.



I am fine with the shooting position of my padded buffer tube & my brake keeps recoil manageable.

Personally, I don't see a need to spend the money.  A crutch tip is working fine for me.  And it's $120 cheaper than a brace.

No problem.

The UCIW thing is cool, but when I got my first brace, I didn't like the contact between my face and the charging handle, and ended up going with an extended buffer tube to move the Sig brace back a bit.

Do you actually fire your shorties with the stock collapsed all the way, and if so, how do you deal with the charging handle in the face thing?

Ok well so far all I am seeing are "I don't like it" people and one guy saying that its a tax dodge. If it is a SBR tax dodge, then all AR pistols are. Not seeing a solid reason for the hate of the SB15. I started this thread to find the reason behind the dis-like of SB15s in order to find a way to make peace with those who don't like it. I like the SB15 and use it on one of my pistols and really don't want them to go away because a handful of unhappy want to stir up trouble. I really think it is just a fear reaction from people. I think they see the SB15 as a threat to AR pistols and that is the main reason for all the bitching about them. I am not here to troll or tell people what to say or think. I was just looking for a clear answer to my question.

i believe the reason is.... well I'll leave the explaining to a more eloquent and entertaining story teller..

I must chime in , I built my first pistol this summer . Tried to get used to shooting it without a brace ( tube only) accuracy was so so , control on rapid strings of shots was poor
So I thougt I would try a sling - marginal improvement
I then installed a sig brace , of course I'm shouldering it like a rifle , and I'm very happy with the results
Don't listen to the haters
Personally I don't want a $200 tax stamp - and for me it's not about the money
I paid cash for every part of this AR , including the lower that I paid $100 for after answering an ad on Armslist.
I have an SBR like pistol with no paperwork
If you don't see the value in that , I cannot help you

Finally someone with a bit of sense.

I also have one of those SIG braces and its not bad compared to an actual stock.

Agreed. I would prefer a stock. I have an SBR lower so i know the pro's and con's. But the SB15 is close enough to a stock that I am not willing to pay $200 protection fee to the ATF and put up with the paperwork shuffle. I feel much better about giving $105 to SIG SAUER

It's not tax evasion and even if it was, taxes are too high and the NFA is unconstitutional.

Plus, some people live in states where you can't buy a stamp.

I don't want a stamp even if it was free. I don't want to fill out the paperwork, and I don't want the government knowing anymore about my business than they already do.
like one of the above posters said, I wasn't really interested in a pistol and had not wanted to do an  SBR because of the above. when I saw the sig brace I knew I could have both. plus the advantages and crossing state lines and carried loaded in a vehicle.