User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 12/13/2014 10:05:43 AM EDT
[#1]
My 10.5 is just over 26" if you include A2 flash hider and that is with a pistol tube that is about 3/4" shorter that carbine tube.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/13/2014 2:00:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Remember that the muzzle device does not count towards OAL unless it is permanently attached.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/13/2014 7:28:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I would like to know what pistol tube/Sig Brace would be the same size as a normal M4 stock in the shortest position. I have a 10.5 inch barrel and I want this build to remain under 26 inches so that it remains a pistol. You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 12:33:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. IANAL, but my read on the CO statutes is that barrel needs to be under 12" to count as a pistol - I didn't see any OAL requirement there (though of course adding a VFG to a >26" OAL would make it a "firearm" under federal law not a "pistol" so I think you can't do that and still count it as a pistol for concealed carry). I've not found anything in the CO statutes to specify how OAL is measured (or barrel length for that matter), so I would presume it to follow federal standards, but again, IANAL and this is NOT legal advice. Richard |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 1:08:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Per federal law it's still a pistol over 26" OAL, it only becomes a firearm when a VFG is attached. Your state law may vary.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 2:14:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would like to know what pistol tube/Sig Brace would be the same size as a normal M4 stock in the shortest position. I have a 10.5 inch barrel and I want this build to remain under 26 inches so that it remains a pistol. You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS It doesn't have anything to do with state law like what you are thinking. Colorado has a hunting law that says a legal rifle has to have a 16 in barrel. I don't want to have a 16 inch 300 blackout and then add a suppressor on the end to hunt so I thought I could use this and it is still considered a pistol. Does that make sense? Thanks for the response! My other solution is do do something like the Tactical Solutions TSAR-300 but that costs a fortune for what it is. I was thinking about getting a thread adapter and welding a tube on it, then permanently affixing it to my barrel and screwing the suppressor inside this shroud, thus having a weapon that is still good for subsonics but isn't 10 feet long! ETA I already have an SBR tax stamped lower but it is not legal to hunt with because of the barrel length restriction. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 3:32:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would like to know what pistol tube/Sig Brace would be the same size as a normal M4 stock in the shortest position. I have a 10.5 inch barrel and I want this build to remain under 26 inches so that it remains a pistol. You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS The standard CAR stocks are flush with the end of the buffer tube when collapsed, so no, they don't add length. Maybe a Magpul adds length, but the plain old $12 stock has a hole in the end to the let the buffer tube come flush. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 5:38:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The standard CAR stocks are flush with the end of the buffer tube when collapsed, so no, they don't add length. Maybe a Magpul adds length, but the plain old $12 stock has a hole in the end to the let the buffer tube come flush. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would like to know what pistol tube/Sig Brace would be the same size as a normal M4 stock in the shortest position. I have a 10.5 inch barrel and I want this build to remain under 26 inches so that it remains a pistol. You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS The standard CAR stocks are flush with the end of the buffer tube when collapsed, so no, they don't add length. Maybe a Magpul adds length, but the plain old $12 stock has a hole in the end to the let the buffer tube come flush. Duh. Of course you are right, synapse misfired somewhere. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 5:54:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't have anything to do with state law like what you are thinking. Colorado has a hunting law that says a legal rifle has to have a 16 in barrel. I don't want to have a 16 inch 300 blackout and then add a suppressor on the end to hunt so I thought I could use this and it is still considered a pistol. Does that make sense? .... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would like to know what pistol tube/Sig Brace would be the same size as a normal M4 stock in the shortest position. I have a 10.5 inch barrel and I want this build to remain under 26 inches so that it remains a pistol. You'll need a standard length ~7" buffer tube, pistol or carbine. Not counting muzzle device, it will be under 26". I didn't know CO also had this state law? At any rate, you'd need to be sure CO doesn't count non-permanent muzzle device into OAL, same as Feds. When I've asked, nobody in MI has ever answered that question when I've posed it about the law there either. I don't understand your reference to a carbine stock though. Obviously a stock, even in collapsed position, adds overall length past a buffer tube and is counted in overall length of a rifle, and of course can't be used with a short barrel without a fed stamp. - OS It doesn't have anything to do with state law like what you are thinking. Colorado has a hunting law that says a legal rifle has to have a 16 in barrel. I don't want to have a 16 inch 300 blackout and then add a suppressor on the end to hunt so I thought I could use this and it is still considered a pistol. Does that make sense? .... What doesn't make sense is your concern over 26" OAL. Unless CO has yet another law you didn't mention, run whatever length barrel you want on a pistol regardless of OAL of the firearm. There is no federal OAL maximum (or barrel length maximum) for a handgun. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 9:25:37 PM EDT
[#10]
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 9:39:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have. But again, his whole concern was with max OAL of 26". Any statutes about that in CO? - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 11:52:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But again, his whole concern was with max OAL of 26". Any statutes about that in CO? - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have. But again, his whole concern was with max OAL of 26". Any statutes about that in CO? - OS I don't think there is other than the front grip thing. The weird thing is that the regulations for big game state: c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. But small game has no such rule listed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/14/2014 11:54:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have. It makes no sense at all considering there is no special handgun season, meaning you have to use a rifle tag to hunt with a handgun anyway. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 1:55:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think there is other than the front grip thing. The weird thing is that the regulations for big game state: c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. But small game has no such rule listed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have. But again, his whole concern was with max OAL of 26". Any statutes about that in CO? - OS I don't think there is other than the front grip thing. The weird thing is that the regulations for big game state: c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. But small game has no such rule listed. You started the whole thread with concerns about staying under 26" overall length so that it "stays a pistol". Unless CO has specific laws to contravene them, federally: - you may make a handgun from any receiver that was not initially configured as a rifle - again, there is no limit on OAL or barrel length for a handgun - a pistol with legal OAL of 26" or more may have a vertical forward grip attached, at which time it becomes a legal non-NFA firearm. Remove the grip, it's magically a pistol again. Just as with barrel length, a muzzle device does not count in OAL unless permanently attached. That is the only significance of the 26" measurement of an AR pistol. - Of course, you can never have an attached stock with a rifled barrel of under 16" without an SBR tax stamp - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 3:58:20 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You started the whole thread with concerns about staying under 26" overall length so that it "stays a pistol". Unless CO has specific laws to contravene them, federally: - you may make a handgun from any receiver that was not initially configured as a rifle - again, there is no limit on OAL or barrel length for a handgun - a pistol with legal OAL of 26" or more may have a vertical forward grip attached, at which time it becomes a legal non-NFA firearm. Remove the grip, it's magically a pistol again. Just as with barrel length, a muzzle device does not count in OAL unless permanently attached. That is the only significance of the 26" measurement of an AR pistol. - Of course, you can never have an attached stock with a rifled barrel of under 16" without an SBR tax stamp - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have. But again, his whole concern was with max OAL of 26". Any statutes about that in CO? - OS I don't think there is other than the front grip thing. The weird thing is that the regulations for big game state: c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. But small game has no such rule listed. You started the whole thread with concerns about staying under 26" overall length so that it "stays a pistol". Unless CO has specific laws to contravene them, federally: - you may make a handgun from any receiver that was not initially configured as a rifle - again, there is no limit on OAL or barrel length for a handgun - a pistol with legal OAL of 26" or more may have a vertical forward grip attached, at which time it becomes a legal non-NFA firearm. Remove the grip, it's magically a pistol again. Just as with barrel length, a muzzle device does not count in OAL unless permanently attached. That is the only significance of the 26" measurement of an AR pistol. - Of course, you can never have an attached stock with a rifled barrel of under 16" without an SBR tax stamp - OS Good deal. Now I just need to find out which pistol tube works best with the Sig brace, and is 7 inches long. I think the KAK one is longer. I will have to research that now. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/15/2014 4:18:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good deal. Now I just need to find out which pistol tube works best with the Sig brace, and is 7 inches long. I think the KAK one is longer. I will have to research that now. Thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Colorado statue where firearms with over 12 inch barrel is no longer considered a pistol is something put into place to keep hunters in line. It seems silly to me, but my friends who hunt bear all think its a good thing to have. But again, his whole concern was with max OAL of 26". Any statutes about that in CO? - OS I don't think there is other than the front grip thing. The weird thing is that the regulations for big game state: c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited. But small game has no such rule listed. You started the whole thread with concerns about staying under 26" overall length so that it "stays a pistol". Unless CO has specific laws to contravene them, federally: - you may make a handgun from any receiver that was not initially configured as a rifle - again, there is no limit on OAL or barrel length for a handgun - a pistol with legal OAL of 26" or more may have a vertical forward grip attached, at which time it becomes a legal non-NFA firearm. Remove the grip, it's magically a pistol again. Just as with barrel length, a muzzle device does not count in OAL unless permanently attached. That is the only significance of the 26" measurement of an AR pistol. - Of course, you can never have an attached stock with a rifled barrel of under 16" without an SBR tax stamp - OS Good deal. Now I just need to find out which pistol tube works best with the Sig brace, and is 7 inches long. I think the KAK one is longer. I will have to research that now. Thanks. So, still curious -- since OAL is not a factor as you apparently originally thought, do you shoot an AR rifle with stock at the fully collapsed setting? - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 3:54:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Yes, that is how I shoot a carbine. Closer to center chest than shoulder. Plate towards enemy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/18/2014 8:13:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, that is how I shoot a carbine. Closer to center chest than shoulder. Plate towards enemy. Left eye dominant and right-handed???? I'm trying to picture how that position works at all 
(Not meant as a criticism, just honestly confused.) Richard |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/19/2014 1:23:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Left eye dominant and right-handed???? I'm trying to picture how that position works at all
(Not meant as a criticism, just honestly confused.) Richard Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yes, that is how I shoot a carbine. Closer to center chest than shoulder. Plate towards enemy. Left eye dominant and right-handed???? I'm trying to picture how that position works at all
(Not meant as a criticism, just honestly confused.) Richard Yeah sorry, it would be easier to show than describe. I am saying not out far on the shoulder. More in on the peck, towards the centerline of my body. More like this at the 25 second mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfW8sJTqhAw Shoulders square to the target. See how his stock is all the way down and the rifle is pulled in really tight with the off hand out to control the muzzle? |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
