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Posted: 10/30/2014 2:59:47 PM EDT
I found this out from a buddy of mine and I confirmed it via email with the BATFE. Any AR/AK pistol that has an overall length from buffer tube to barrel (not muzzle device) of 26 inches or greater is considered a "firearm" not a pistol or rifle. In so it is not subject to the NFA/AOW act and can have a vertical fore grip.

If you have any doubts email me ([email protected])  and I will forward you the email from the BATFE
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 3:18:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I found this out from a buddy of mine and I confirmed it via email with the BATFE. Any AR/AK pistol that has an overall length from buffer tube to barrel (not muzzle device) of 26 inches or greater is considered a "firearm" not a pistol or rifle. In so it is not subject to the NFA/AOW act and can have a vertical fore grip.

If you have any doubts email me ([email protected])  and I will forward you the email from the BATFE
View Quote


You've been vacationing for some time on Mars perhaps?

Anyway, you are incorrect. There is no federal OAL specified for a pistol. A handgun of 26" or more OAL becomes a firearm only when the VFG attached. Magically becomes pistol again when it is removed.

Federal definition of handgun/pistol has not changed -- this is only a narrow interpretative exception to AOL status.

- OS
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 3:28:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Actually the email I have says and I quote

"Vertical fore-grips may not be installed on pistols without being subject to the provisions of the NFA. However and AR-15 type firearm (without a butt stock and having an overall length of 26 inches or greater) would be a "firearm" rather than a "pistol" and as such may have a vertical fore-grip without being subject to the provisions of the NFA."

This statement means any AR Pistol that is over 26" or greater in length is considered a "firearm" by the ATF. what your state classifies it as is up to the state.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 3:33:47 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
Actually the email I have says and I quote

"Vertical fore-grips may not be installed on pistols without being subject to the provisions of the NFA. However and AR-15 type firearm (without a butt stock and having an overall length of 26 inches or greater) would be a "firearm" rather than a "pistol" and as such may have a vertical fore-grip without being subject to the provisions of the NFA."

This statement means any AR Pistol that is over 26" or greater in length is considered a "firearm" by the ATF. what your state classifies it as is up to the state.
View Quote


Then you will be able to show me where the ATF definition of handgun/firearm has changed. Think what you like, but you're wrong. There is no limitation on barrel or overall length for a firearm to be defined as a handgun/pistol. It can't be a non-NFA "firearm" without the attached VFG.

And incidentally, in "firearm" configuration, it must not be concealed on the person, or it becomes an AOW.

- OS
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 3:40:21 PM EDT
[#4]
This letter describes the ATF line of reasoning and specifically spells out when the weapon changes among the various definitions based on the changing configurations.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html

(among others)
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 3:54:24 PM EDT
[#5]
I am not a lawyer and this is NOT legal adice, but my understanding is that IF it has a VFG and you conceal it upon your person (not sure about off person) it still becomes a NFA weapon. Oh well, just take off the grip when you want.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 4:02:38 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
I am not a lawyer and this is NOT legal adice, but my understanding is that IF it has a VFG and you conceal it upon your person (not sure about off person) it still becomes a NFA weapon.
View Quote


I believe I just said that. And it's "on the person".

The legal "firearm" classification has three requirements:

- 26" or more OAL
- a VFG
- not concealed on the person

(bottom of page)





- OS
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 4:31:40 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


Then you will be able to show me where the ATF definition of handgun/firearm has changed. Think what you like, but you're wrong. There is no limitation on barrel or overall length for a firearm to be defined as a handgun/pistol. It can't be a non-NFA "firearm" without the attached VFG.

And incidentally, in "firearm" configuration, it must not be concealed on the person, or it becomes an AOW.

- OS
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Actually the email I have says and I quote

"Vertical fore-grips may not be installed on pistols without being subject to the provisions of the NFA. However and AR-15 type firearm (without a butt stock and having an overall length of 26 inches or greater) would be a "firearm" rather than a "pistol" and as such may have a vertical fore-grip without being subject to the provisions of the NFA."

This statement means any AR Pistol that is over 26" or greater in length is considered a "firearm" by the ATF. what your state classifies it as is up to the state.


Then you will be able to show me where the ATF definition of handgun/firearm has changed. Think what you like, but you're wrong. There is no limitation on barrel or overall length for a firearm to be defined as a handgun/pistol. It can't be a non-NFA "firearm" without the attached VFG.

And incidentally, in "firearm" configuration, it must not be concealed on the person, or it becomes an AOW.

- OS



Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. An AR Pistol is still considered an AOW if the barrel is greater than 12" and less than 18" and has an OAL of <26" with a vertical fore-grip. Also if you have a lower receiver that has was originally made as a rifle then is converted to a "pistol" (slapping a 7" upper on your AR15 and swapping out the buffer tube) it is also considered a AOW. There is no defenition for the minimum or maximum length of a pistol barrel as long the pistol does not have a vertical fore-grip.

OS I stand corrected!
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 4:36:40 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. An AR Pistol is still considered an AOW if the barrel is greater than 12" and less than 18" and has an OAL of <26" whether or not it has a vertical fore-grip. WRONG, IT IS A 'FIREARM' IF IT IS OVER 26" OAL, REGARDLESS OF BARREL LENGTH Also if you have a lower receiver that has was originally made as a rifle then is converted to a "pistol" (slapping a 7" upper on your AR15 and swapping out the buffer tube) it is also considered a AOW. IT WOULD BE A SBR, NOT A AOW There is no defenition for the minimum or maximum length of a pistol barrel as long the pistol does not have a vertical fore-grip.

OS I stand corrected!
View Quote


That is a load of BS right there.  Either you misunderstood or whoever you talked to is clueless.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 4:40:45 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


That is a load of BS right there.  Either you misunderstood or whoever you talked to is clueless.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. An AR Pistol is still considered an AOW if the barrel is greater than 12" and less than 18" and has an OAL of <26" whether or not it has a vertical fore-grip. WRONG, IT IS A 'FIREARM' IF IT IS OVER 16" OAL, REGARDLESS OF BARREL LENGTH Also if you have a lower receiver that has was originally made as a rifle then is converted to a "pistol" (slapping a 7" upper on your AR15 and swapping out the buffer tube) it is also considered a AOW. IT WOULD BE A SBR, NOT A AOW There is no defenition for the minimum or maximum length of a pistol barrel as long the pistol does not have a vertical fore-grip.

OS I stand corrected!


That is a load of BS right there.  Either you misunderstood or whoever you talked to is clueless.


Read what he said, if you convert a registered rifle to a pistol, slapping a 7" upper AND CHANGING THE BUFFER TUBE to a pistol buffer tube it will be an AOW. just shortening the barrel will be a SBR.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 4:46:20 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


Read what he said, if you convert a registered rifle to a pistol, slapping a 7" upper AND CHANGING THE BUFFER TUBE to a pistol buffer tube it will be an AOW. just shortening the barrel will be a SBR.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. An AR Pistol is still considered an AOW if the barrel is greater than 12" and less than 18" and has an OAL of <26" whether or not it has a vertical fore-grip. WRONG, IT IS A 'FIREARM' IF IT IS OVER 16" OAL, REGARDLESS OF BARREL LENGTH Also if you have a lower receiver that has was originally made as a rifle then is converted to a "pistol" (slapping a 7" upper on your AR15 and swapping out the buffer tube) it is also considered a AOW. IT WOULD BE A SBR, NOT A AOW There is no defenition for the minimum or maximum length of a pistol barrel as long the pistol does not have a vertical fore-grip.

OS I stand corrected!


That is a load of BS right there.  Either you misunderstood or whoever you talked to is clueless.


Read what he said, if you convert a registered rifle to a pistol, slapping a 7" upper AND CHANGING THE BUFFER TUBE to a pistol buffer tube it will be an AOW. just shortening the barrel will be a SBR.


Assuming you are relaying it correctly, he also told you that any AR pistol with a 12"-18" barrel was an AOW
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 4:49:22 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:


Read what he said, if you convert a registered rifle to a pistol, slapping a 7" upper AND CHANGING THE BUFFER TUBE to a pistol buffer tube it will be an AOW. just shortening the barrel will be a SBR.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. An AR Pistol is still considered an AOW if the barrel is greater than 12" and less than 18" and has an OAL of <26" whether or not it has a vertical fore-grip. WRONG, IT IS A 'FIREARM' IF IT IS OVER 16" OAL, REGARDLESS OF BARREL LENGTH Also if you have a lower receiver that has was originally made as a rifle then is converted to a "pistol" (slapping a 7" upper on your AR15 and swapping out the buffer tube) it is also considered a AOW. IT WOULD BE A SBR, NOT A AOW There is no defenition for the minimum or maximum length of a pistol barrel as long the pistol does not have a vertical fore-grip.

OS I stand corrected!


That is a load of BS right there.  Either you misunderstood or whoever you talked to is clueless.


Read what he said, if you convert a registered rifle to a pistol, slapping a 7" upper AND CHANGING THE BUFFER TUBE to a pistol buffer tube it will be an AOW. just shortening the barrel will be a SBR.

Wrong. It would be and SBR. "Any weapon made from a rifle". This is why guys have trouble building AOW SxS shotguns, because it's very difficult to find SxS receivers that weren't previously long-guns.

A pistol is a pistol regardless of it's OAL and bbl length. Once you add the VFG it changes it's classification; if it's <26" it's an AOW. If it's >26" it's a "firearm".
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 5:11:02 PM EDT
[#12]
This is why you need to look at it step by step and can't make a blanket deifiniton of a "firearm" without the logical progression that eliminates the other classifications.
As in the ATF letter above, a pistol greater than 26OAL that has a VFG attached BECOMES reclassified a general "firearm" because it fits no other definition.
The order of those statements is important.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 5:11:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Just an FYI, the Justice Department has never won the vertical grip added to a pistol is an AOW in court and there have been several cases.  So, it's really not the law, it's a weak interpretation they have never won when attempting to enforce.  Since they haven't lost in all 11 District Courts, they have chosen to keep their dumb interpretation.

http://www.saysuncle.com/2007/07/03/atf_and_the_law/
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:09:22 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm just relaying what I was told. Thought I'd spread the news

If your pistol is over 26" slap a VFG on it. If you want the letter, email me. Otherwise fuck off with the interpretation of the law...ok i'm stressed out. Time to masterbate.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:14:45 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
I'm just relaying what I was told. Thought I'd spread the news

If your pistol is over 26" slap a VFG on it. If you want the letter, email me. Otherwise fuck off with the interpretation of the law...ok i'm stressed out. Time to masterbate.
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Quoted:
I'm just relaying what I was told. Thought I'd spread the news

If your pistol is over 26" slap a VFG on it. If you want the letter, email me. Otherwise fuck off with the interpretation of the law...ok i'm stressed out. Time to masterbate.


That is correct, but not what you posted in your OP.

Quoted:
I found this out from a buddy of mine and I confirmed it via email with the BATFE. Any AR/AK pistol that has an overall length from buffer tube to barrel (not muzzle device) of 26 inches or greater is considered a "firearm" not a pistol or rifle. In so it is not subject to the NFA/AOW act and can have a vertical fore grip.


That is incorrect
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:14:55 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
.....

If your pistol is over 26" slap a VFG on it.....
View Quote


Again, to be precise, it doesn't have to be over 26". I think you'd best just duck out.

- OS
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:31:00 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
I'm just relaying what I was told. Thought I'd spread the news

If your pistol is over 26" slap a VFG on it. If you want the letter, email me. Otherwise fuck off with the interpretation of the law...ok i'm stressed out. Time to masterbate.
View Quote


Thanks for sharing although you'll be better informed if you read the second topic which is permanently posted in this forum (look for the megaphone).  Thought I'd share that with ya.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:35:57 PM EDT
[#18]
So...

Under 16" barrel + buttstock = SBR

Over 16" barrel + whatever = rifle

Under 16" barrel - buttstock = pistol

Pistol under 26" overall length + forward grip = AOW?

Pistol over 26" overall length + forward grip = ?

Sound right? Kinda?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:38:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Not sure what the importance is as to whether a >26" AR pistol is legally classified as a pistol or firearm whether or not it has a VFG on it or not.

What it boils down to is, if it's >26", you can slap a VFG on it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 6:54:51 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
So...

Under 16" barrel + buttstock = SBR

Over 16" barrel + whatever = rifle

Under 16" barrel - buttstock = pistol

Pistol under 26" overall length + forward grip = AOW?

Pistol over 26" overall length + forward grip = ? Firearm

Sound right? Kinda?
View Quote

A pistol doesn't have any barrel length limitations in federal law. Put a 24" bbl on an AR pistol, it's still a pistol.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 7:05:50 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:

A pistol doesn't have any barrel length limitations in federal law. Put a 24" bbl on an AR pistol, it's still a pistol.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So...

Under 16" barrel + buttstock = SBR

Over 16" barrel + whatever = rifle

Under 16" barrel - buttstock = pistol

Pistol under 26" overall length + forward grip = AOW?

Pistol over 26" overall length + forward grip = ? Firearm

Sound right? Kinda?

A pistol doesn't have any barrel length limitations in federal law. Put a 24" bbl on an AR pistol, it's still a pistol.


Ah...ok. So a firearm - buttstock = pistol? Just as long as it was a pistol all along?

You stated that pistol over 26" + forward grip = firearm. What does the ATF do with a "firearm"? Does that require some kind of registration with them?

Thanks for the clarification BTW. I have a turn key rifle and a turn key pistol, both began their lives that way and will stay that way...but I was just curious.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 7:23:15 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
Not sure what the importance is as to whether a >26" AR pistol is legally classified as a pistol or firearm whether or not it has a VFG on it or not....
View Quote


One significant matter of importance is that in many states you may only carry a handgun, with or without a permit. Most states acquiesce to federal definitions and rulings.

And again, it's not >26, but 26.0.

- OS
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 7:57:07 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:

Ah...ok. So a firearm - buttstock = pistol?  
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Quoted:

Ah...ok. So a firearm - buttstock = pistol?  


Nope. Take the buttstock off a firearm that began life as a rifle, it's still a rifle. You're just shooting a rifle without a stock. Which is legal, as long as the barrel is 16" or more and the OAL is still 26" or more. If not, you have made a firearm from a rifle, ie an SBR.

Quoted:

Just as long as it was a pistol all along?


A pistol could also have been a rifle at some point, as long as it began life as a pistol can still be a pistol once again.

Quoted:You stated that pistol over 26" + forward grip = firearm. What does the ATF do with a "firearm"? Does that require some kind of registration with them?


Nope.

- OS

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:24:21 PM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:


Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. !
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No offence, but I think you likely just got some secretary. To be fare, most field agents don't know everything either. If you build any thing that looks "interesting" these are the kind of issues you may face some day when un-informed LEOs think they found something illegal.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:34:12 PM EDT
[#25]
It's more important to check your State's laws as there are usually some quirks with what is considered a pistol for CCW purposes...
Link Posted: 10/31/2014 1:40:45 AM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:

No offence, but I think you likely just got some secretary. To be fare, most field agents don't know everything either. If you build any thing that looks "interesting" these are the kind of issues you may face some day when un-informed LEOs think they found something illegal.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Ok just got off the phone with the ATF. !

No offence, but I think you likely just got some secretary. To be fare, most field agents don't know everything either. If you build any thing that looks "interesting" these are the kind of issues you may face some day when un-informed LEOs think they found something illegal.

Ya I would not take the word from any field agent, you want to talk to the tech branch, in my experience (i have had several) they know about as much as your average LEO when it comes to firearms which means unless they hang out here, is  nothing. I have even met a few who think the sig brace is a stock, have no idea what the definition of pistol or firearm or rifle is. Think pistols with the sig brace are SBRs, or that Pistols 26" or longer with a VFG are AOWs. I have had to grab tech letters from their own tech branch and explain it to them, sometimes in crayon.
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