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Posted: 8/20/2014 6:46:08 PM EDT
So a VFG makes an AR Pistol with a 26 or longer OAL a firearms. What does the law say about going back and forth between pistol and firearm? Can I put a VFG on my pistol (making it a firearm) and then just take it off when I want to transport it loaded and uncased in my truck with my CCW permit?
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 7:10:53 PM EDT
[#1]
I think you meant to type 26" overall length, not 26 or longer barrel.
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 7:30:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
So a VFG makes an AR Pistol with a 26 or longer barrel a firearms. What does the law say about going back and forth between pistol and firearm? Can I put a VFG on my pistol (making it a firearm) and then just take it off when I want to transport it loaded and uncased in my truck with my CCW permit?
View Quote

Assuming you are talking about OAL and not barrel length then yes. Put your VFG on a quick detach lever.

VFG ON = Firearm = Doesn't fall under most CCW's

VFG OFF = Pistol = G2G

You can go back and forth as simple as that.
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 7:38:58 PM EDT
[#3]
The OAL of 26"+ makes it a "non-pistol Firearm" not the VFG. Having a VFG on a pistol less then 26" OAL makes it an AOW. Being 26"+ keeps you of legal trouble for having an unregistered AOW.  Remove or add the vfg all you want if you pistol is at least 26" OAL.
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 8:18:32 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
The OAL of 26"+ makes it a "non-pistol Firearm" not the VFG. Having a VFG on a pistol less then 26" OAL makes it an AOW. Being 26"+ keeps you of legal trouble for having an unregistered AOW.  Remove or add the vfg all you want if you pistol is at least 26" OAL.
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Link Posted: 8/20/2014 8:23:58 PM EDT
[#5]
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The OAL of 26"+ makes it a "non-pistol Firearm" not the VFG. Having a VFG on a pistol less then 26" OAL makes it an AOW. Being 26"+ keeps you of legal trouble for having an unregistered AOW.  Remove or add the vfg all you want if you pistol is at least 26" OAL.



Did you have something to add?
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 8:41:53 PM EDT
[#6]
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Did you have something to add?
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The OAL of 26"+ makes it a "non-pistol Firearm" not the VFG. Having a VFG on a pistol less then 26" OAL makes it an AOW. Being 26"+ keeps you of legal trouble for having an unregistered AOW.  Remove or add the vfg all you want if you pistol is at least 26" OAL.



Did you have something to add?

I think I misunderstood What you said. It Sounds like you are saying that over 26 inches makes it a non pistol.
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 9:39:57 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:

I think I misunderstood What you said. It Sounds like you are saying that over 26 inches makes it a non pistol.
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The OAL of 26"+ makes it a "non-pistol Firearm" not the VFG. Having a VFG on a pistol less then 26" OAL makes it an AOW. Being 26"+ keeps you of legal trouble for having an unregistered AOW.  Remove or add the vfg all you want if you pistol is at least 26" OAL.



Did you have something to add?

I think I misunderstood What you said. It Sounds like you are saying that over 26 inches makes it a non pistol.



That's what I'm getting too...

I always thought it's a pistol no matter what the barrel length

(not including vfg in that statement)
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 10:04:33 PM EDT
[#8]




"Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand… Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).




Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (
), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, "pistol” is defined as:









a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile
(bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a
chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the
bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at
an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).












The
further defines the term "any other weapon” (
) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:









any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from
which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a
pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or
redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination
shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in
length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either
barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which
may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol
or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed,
made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of
firing fixed ammunition.













The ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore
grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and
fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a
vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are "making” a firearm requiring
registration with
’s
Branch. Making an unregistered "
” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered "
” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.




To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on Form 1 (5320.1),
"Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit
the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the
applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application
will be reviewed by the
Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an "

is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will
be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the
designated handgun.




A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture
weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an Form 2 (5320.2). The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an Form 4 (5320.4), which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the
Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the
Form 4 so that the
Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the
Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.


 
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 10:14:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Um...50% credit there.

The OAL of 26" is critical to the discussion.
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 10:15:00 PM EDT
[#10]



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Quoted:




Um...50% credit there.
The OAL of 26" is critical to the discussion.
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I'm about to post that part.
A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:


(a)serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm.





A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length).





A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).





A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.
 
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 10:29:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Why don't you just call it what it is, a stockless rifle.
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 10:45:52 PM EDT
[#12]
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Why don't you just call it what it is, a stockless rifle.
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Hey now, it's terminology like that that'll get them taken away.


Bite your tongue, It's a handgun
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 10:59:23 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
I think you meant to type 26" overall length, not 26 or longer barrel.
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Correct, typo on my behalf
Fixed
Link Posted: 8/20/2014 11:32:39 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:
....
I always thought it's a pistol no matter what the barrel length

(not including vfg in that statement)
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It is. No firearm definitions changed. The 26"/VFG thang is simply a narrow interpretative exception within the AOW classification.

- OS
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 3:18:05 AM EDT
[#15]
My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 3:42:47 AM EDT
[#16]
There is no issue switching back and forth...
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 3:43:11 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.
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No problem switching between the two.
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 4:49:35 AM EDT
[#18]
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I'm about to post that part.

 
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Um...50% credit there.

The OAL of 26" is critical to the discussion.

I'm about to post that part.

 


Link Posted: 8/21/2014 4:43:16 PM EDT
[#19]
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My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.
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Guess you just ignored my post then...
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 5:48:59 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:

Guess you just ignored my post then...
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My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.

Guess you just ignored my post then...


No, but without a source or link to a statute that could be your opinion and I would hate to tell the judge, " it's ok, emb876 told me it was legal, and it's as simple as that"
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 6:01:06 PM EDT
[#21]
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No, but without a source or link to a statute that could be your opinion and I would hate to tell the judge, " it's ok, emb876 told me it was legal, and it's as simple as that"
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Quoted:
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My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.

Guess you just ignored my post then...


No, but without a source or link to a statute that could be your opinion and I would hate to tell the judge, " it's ok, emb876 told me it was legal, and it's as simple as that"

neither did anyone else who answered after me and said the same exact thing
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 6:05:47 PM EDT
[#22]

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My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.
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See the sentences I highlighted in red above.



 
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 6:09:45 PM EDT
[#23]
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See the sentences I highlighted in red above.
 
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My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.
See the sentences I highlighted in red above.
 


Thank you
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 7:28:28 PM EDT
[#24]
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No problem switching between the two.
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My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.

No problem switching between the two.


No problem switching back and forth, so long as it was originally built as a pistol.  If it is originally assembled with a VFG as a >26" non-NFA firearm, you would not then be able to remove the VFG and put a shorter barrel on it to reduce its OAL under 26".  Doing so to a firearm that was not originally assembled as a pistol would prevent the resulting configuration from meeting the definition of a pistol (which must be originally designed, made, and intended as such), and it would be considered an AOW.  

Just attach the VFG last, after fully assembling the gun in pistol configuration, and then you can freely switch back and forth.  You can also convert it to a rifle by first putting on a >16" upper, then attaching a buttstock, and then switch back by reversing the process, so long as there is never a short upper and a buttstock attached simultaneously.
Link Posted: 8/21/2014 8:05:21 PM EDT
[#25]







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Quoted:
See the sentences I highlighted in red above.
 
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Quoted:
My big concern is switching it back and forth from pistol to firearm.
See the sentences I highlighted in red above.
 


ETA: ToyCop, forget my rant. In the morning light I see that you are quoting the ATF 2011-4 ruling and not title 2. Your post is spot on, my bad.
I left my original post intact below.
The part you highlighted is in reference to title 2 firearms (NFA). These are different than title 1 firearms as defined below:
Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed
to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm
muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term
shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed
collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.
So any weapon that does not fit the codified definition of pistol, rifle, shotgun, handgun, SBR, Firearm made from a rifle, SBS, Firearm made from a Shotgun, AOW or DD falls back to this simple definition which is a "Firearm".
What you highlighted is defining a NFA Firearm, AKA the types of firearms that fall under the purview of the BATFE as codified under Title 2 of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA68).
Title 2 is most commonly referred to as the National Firearms Act (NFA) after the original NFA of 1934 which was effectively nullified by the ruling in Haynes v. US in 1968. That case lead to the drafting and adoption of GCA68.
Simple ain't it?
ETA: OP, it is legal to convert from pistol to firearm or rifle then back to pistol because it does not change the way the pistol was "originally designed, made and intended to fire...".  You can change the original design of a pistol, but you can never change how it was originally designed. So a pistol will always originally be a pistol.
Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a
projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and
having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped
by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the
bore(s).
 
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