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Posted: 7/8/2014 3:47:11 AM EDT
[#1]
If you want to go that short, 9MM would be a better choice...
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:29:39 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want to go that short, 9MM would be a better choice... Could you explain why? When comparing 55gr .223 to 115gr 9mm on ballistics by the inch muzzle energy looks about the same at 400 ft lbs. Also I don't want to have to buy all new magazines and .223 and 9mm are pretty much the same price nowadays |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:55:55 AM EDT
[#3]
For .223/5.56 ammo it takes about 12.5 inches of barrel length to burn all its powder. Anything shorter loses speed (translating to energy) at an increasing rate. I have a 7.5" SBR and have no intention of going shorter in .223/5.56, but I am thinking of building a 4.5 - 5 inch 9MM. The other problem might arise in cycling the action with that short of a barrel...
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:01:08 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:09:02 AM EDT
[#5]
I have 7.5, 10.5, 11.5, 14.7, 16, and 20 in barrels. Seems to me that with barrel length comes reliability. YMMV, but the shorter the barrel I use the more finicky the AR becomes.
The 10.5 and 11.5 require the right buffers, the 7.5 requires the right buffer and decent ammo (i.e. Tula isn't going to work) |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:27:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote History
Even the maker describes it as their "infamous" upper and says it doubles as a flame-thrower. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:46:25 AM EDT
[#7]
Yeah those guys are about 15 minutes from my house. Most of the guys that work at the shop are pretty cool. I've seen them fire one of these at the range and with NATO ammo it ran just fine but was louder than you would ever believe.
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:52:41 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could you explain why? When comparing 55gr .223 to 115gr 9mm on ballistics by the inch muzzle energy looks about the same at 400 ft lbs. Also I don't want to have to buy all new magazines and .223 and 9mm are pretty much the same price nowadays Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you want to go that short, 9MM would be a better choice... Could you explain why? When comparing 55gr .223 to 115gr 9mm on ballistics by the inch muzzle energy looks about the same at 400 ft lbs. Also I don't want to have to buy all new magazines and .223 and 9mm are pretty much the same price nowadays It's all about the pressures generated. 9mm is a pistol round and is shot from short barrels all the time. It doesn't produce anywhere near the pressures of the rifle round. The shorter the AR barrel, the higher the pressure running back down the gas tube. Many argue that a 7.5" AR is too short, but there are also many who say it runs fine. Most agree that it is generally as short as one can go with the platform. Why do you think no one (Glock, S & W.,......) makes a regular pistol in .223? I'm sure someone has thought about it. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 8:08:27 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah those guys are about 15 minutes from my house. Most of the guys that work at the shop are pretty cool. I've seen them fire one of these at the range and with NATO ammo it ran just fine but was louder than you would ever believe. I want to build a .300BLK or .30carbine super shorty like that with a can and some heavy subs, just because. I'll probably do something similar with my .45 AR, but the thing would be taller than it is long with a 30rd GG mag in. 
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Posted: 7/8/2014 1:55:30 PM EDT
[#10]
It looks fun. But any logic or reason as to the $900 price tag? Seems rather premium for something that in reality probably cost less to make than a full size yes? |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 2:09:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looks fun. But any logic or reason as to the $900 price tag? Seems rather premium for something that in reality probably cost less to make than a full size yes? Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looks fun. But any logic or reason as to the $900 price tag? Seems rather premium for something that in reality probably cost less to make than a full size yes? Realistically if you start shopping for barrels they dont get any cheaper as they get shorter. My 11.5" noveske cost just as much as my 16". Then you take into account he has to specially order a large batch of these barrels to even have them made, they still aren't going to be cheap. Throw in a billet upper, bolt carrier and everything your starting to stack up there. Then the bigeest thing is he's the only one with them. So he's going to ask what he thinks he can get. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 2:35:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have 7.5, 10.5, 11.5, 14.7, 16, and 20 in barrels. Seems to me that with barrel length comes reliability. YMMV, but the shorter the barrel I use the more finicky the AR becomes. The 10.5 and 11.5 require the right buffers, the 7.5 requires the right buffer and decent ammo (i.e. Tula isn't going to work) 
I guess my 7.5 with non-adjustable gas block, standard carbine buffer and spring certainly won't cycle tula then. Oh wait, it sure does. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 3:55:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Realistically if you start shopping for barrels they dont get any cheaper as they get shorter. My 11.5" noveske cost just as much as my 16". Then you take into account he has to specially order a large batch of these barrels to even have them made, they still aren't going to be cheap. Throw in a billet upper, bolt carrier and everything your starting to stack up there. Then the bigeest thing is he's the only one with them. So he's going to ask what he thinks he can get. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It looks fun. But any logic or reason as to the $900 price tag? Seems rather premium for something that in reality probably cost less to make than a full size yes? Realistically if you start shopping for barrels they dont get any cheaper as they get shorter. My 11.5" noveske cost just as much as my 16". Then you take into account he has to specially order a large batch of these barrels to even have them made, they still aren't going to be cheap. Throw in a billet upper, bolt carrier and everything your starting to stack up there. Then the bigeest thing is he's the only one with them. So he's going to ask what he thinks he can get. But don't they buy barrel blanks in long lengths and then cut them down? 5" barrels could be left-overs from cutting a blank down. I only know what I read but what I read makes it look like barrel blanks come in 34" lengths. From that you can make a couple of 16"ers or a 16" and an 11.5" - and have a 5.5" piece left over. Getting full retail for that scrap might be the thing that makes a shop profitable. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:35:47 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But don't they buy barrel blanks in long lengths and then cut them down? 5" barrels could be left-overs from cutting a blank down. I only know what I read but what I read makes it look like barrel blanks come in 34" lengths. From that you can make a couple of 16"ers or a 16" and an 11.5" - and have a 5.5" piece left over. Getting full retail for that scrap might be the thing that makes a shop profitable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It looks fun. But any logic or reason as to the $900 price tag? Seems rather premium for something that in reality probably cost less to make than a full size yes? Realistically if you start shopping for barrels they dont get any cheaper as they get shorter. My 11.5" noveske cost just as much as my 16". Then you take into account he has to specially order a large batch of these barrels to even have them made, they still aren't going to be cheap. Throw in a billet upper, bolt carrier and everything your starting to stack up there. Then the bigeest thing is he's the only one with them. So he's going to ask what he thinks he can get. But don't they buy barrel blanks in long lengths and then cut them down? 5" barrels could be left-overs from cutting a blank down. I only know what I read but what I read makes it look like barrel blanks come in 34" lengths. From that you can make a couple of 16"ers or a 16" and an 11.5" - and have a 5.5" piece left over. Getting full retail for that scrap might be the thing that makes a shop profitable. I suppose that all makes sense. I guess I should have looked for a better description, didn't know it was billet as well. If they can get by then all the more power to them. Gotta love 'Merica. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:14:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Yeah that super short chode upper looks pretty cool but it's a bit above my price range.
So ok then, I still want to build a super shorty folder. It looks like 9mm might be a better option. Could anyone school me on 9mm AR pistols? I know they need a specialized bcg and they don't have gas systems. When I am building my lower is there anything special I need to do in order to get the mags to work? |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:37:13 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:43:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah that super short chode upper looks pretty cool but it's a bit above my price range. So ok then, I still want to build a super shorty folder. It looks like 9mm might be a better option. Could anyone school me on 9mm AR pistols? I know they need a specialized bcg and they don't have gas systems. When I am building my lower is there anything special I need to do in order to get the mags to work? Get in touch with Ron Williams or Rudy Koester (both members here, check the Pistol Caliber forum). They make DI uppers in a variety of calibers - not requiring radically specialized BCGs. Not sure if 9mm is possible as a gas-operated thing but .40 and .45 are totally workable, among other calibers. I know for a fact Rudy can hook you up with a .45ACP DI upper for way less than $900. |
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Posted: 7/8/2014 9:09:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get in touch with Ron Williams or Rudy Koester (both members here, check the Pistol Caliber forum). They make DI uppers in a variety of calibers - not requiring radically specialized BCGs. Not sure if 9mm is possible as a gas-operated thing but .40 and .45 are totally workable, among other calibers. I know for a fact Rudy can hook you up with a .45ACP DI upper for way less than $900. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah that super short chode upper looks pretty cool but it's a bit above my price range. So ok then, I still want to build a super shorty folder. It looks like 9mm might be a better option. Could anyone school me on 9mm AR pistols? I know they need a specialized bcg and they don't have gas systems. When I am building my lower is there anything special I need to do in order to get the mags to work? Get in touch with Ron Williams or Rudy Koester (both members here, check the Pistol Caliber forum). They make DI uppers in a variety of calibers - not requiring radically specialized BCGs. Not sure if 9mm is possible as a gas-operated thing but .40 and .45 are totally workable, among other calibers. I know for a fact Rudy can hook you up with a .45ACP DI upper for way less than $900. I'd definitely would want to stick with 9mm for the lower ammo cost but I'll message him. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 5:56:31 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess my 7.5 with non-adjustable gas block, standard carbine buffer and spring certainly won't cycle tula then. Oh wait, it sure does. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have 7.5, 10.5, 11.5, 14.7, 16, and 20 in barrels. Seems to me that with barrel length comes reliability. YMMV, but the shorter the barrel I use the more finicky the AR becomes. The 10.5 and 11.5 require the right buffers, the 7.5 requires the right buffer and decent ammo (i.e. Tula isn't going to work)
I guess my 7.5 with non-adjustable gas block, standard carbine buffer and spring certainly won't cycle tula then. Oh wait, it sure does. I've seen a pig climb a ladder, run down a diving board, and dive into a pool of water, does this mean any untrained pig will do this if give the chance? Or does it mean you quoted trying to prove I said your shortie isn't going to function when I said mine won't. I know where there's a 20in rifle gassed barrel that has gas issues, won't cycle reliably and your 7.5 works perfectly (you say). The reliability bell curve has two ends, who knew. Have a nice day. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 6:02:14 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get in touch with Ron Williams or Rudy Koester (both members here, check the Pistol Caliber forum). They make DI uppers in a variety of calibers - not requiring radically specialized BCGs. Not sure if 9mm is possible as a gas-operated thing but .40 and .45 are totally workable, among other calibers. I know for a fact Rudy can hook you up with a .45ACP DI upper for way less than $900. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah that super short chode upper looks pretty cool but it's a bit above my price range. So ok then, I still want to build a super shorty folder. It looks like 9mm might be a better option. Could anyone school me on 9mm AR pistols? I know they need a specialized bcg and they don't have gas systems. When I am building my lower is there anything special I need to do in order to get the mags to work? Get in touch with Ron Williams or Rudy Koester (both members here, check the Pistol Caliber forum). They make DI uppers in a variety of calibers - not requiring radically specialized BCGs. Not sure if 9mm is possible as a gas-operated thing but .40 and .45 are totally workable, among other calibers. I know for a fact Rudy can hook you up with a .45ACP DI upper for way less than $900. For a little more I have kits with GG mag lower & everything you need to put it together 
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Posted: 7/9/2014 1:36:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryFor a little more I have kits with GG mag lower & everything you need to put it together Do you have a website? |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 2:32:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have a website? Quote HistoryQuoted:
For a little more I have kits with GG mag lower & everything you need to put it together Do you have a website? bazookabrothers.com |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 3:01:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Random thought, what about a 5" 7.62x39 upper?
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Posted: 7/9/2014 3:11:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Random thought, what about a 5" 7.62x39 upper? Semi-auto flash-bang generator... 
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Posted: 7/9/2014 4:09:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Semi-auto flash-bang generator... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/choose_weapon_06_30_11_920_71-tfb.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Random thought, what about a 5" 7.62x39 upper? Semi-auto flash-bang generator... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/choose_weapon_06_30_11_920_71-tfb.jpg Bolt-action more like. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 4:13:23 PM EDT
[#26]
TROS makes a 9mm 3 lug barrel.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 4:13:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bolt-action more like. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Random thought, what about a 5" 7.62x39 upper? Semi-auto flash-bang generator... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/choose_weapon_06_30_11_920_71-tfb.jpg Bolt-action more like. On the off chance it functioned correctly I wouldn't put my fingers in the holes on a bet. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 5:48:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Semi-auto flash-bang generator... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/choose_weapon_06_30_11_920_71-tfb.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Random thought, what about a 5" 7.62x39 upper? Semi-auto flash-bang generator... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/choose_weapon_06_30_11_920_71-tfb.jpg My first impression was "fake", but some it looks like some thought went into the sights... No way it cycles though. |
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Posted: 7/9/2014 9:09:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My first impression was "fake", but some it looks like some thought went into the sights... No way it cycles though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Random thought, what about a 5" 7.62x39 upper? Semi-auto flash-bang generator... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/choose_weapon_06_30_11_920_71-tfb.jpg My first impression was "fake", but some it looks like some thought went into the sights... No way it cycles though. Behold 
BUILD THREAD 
Photobucket album holding the build pics belongs to a guy named Kieth Kennedy. |
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Posted: 7/10/2014 5:27:46 AM EDT
[#30]
I wonder if I send an 8" pistol gas system 7.62 ar barrel to Adco and have it chopped to 5" if I could get it to properly cycle.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 6:30:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess my 7.5 with non-adjustable gas block, standard carbine buffer and spring certainly won't cycle tula then. Oh wait, it sure does. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have 7.5, 10.5, 11.5, 14.7, 16, and 20 in barrels. Seems to me that with barrel length comes reliability. YMMV, but the shorter the barrel I use the more finicky the AR becomes. The 10.5 and 11.5 require the right buffers, the 7.5 requires the right buffer and decent ammo (i.e. Tula isn't going to work)
I guess my 7.5 with non-adjustable gas block, standard carbine buffer and spring certainly won't cycle tula then. Oh wait, it sure does. mine too! 
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Posted: 7/12/2014 4:34:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could you explain why? When comparing 55gr .223 to 115gr 9mm on ballistics by the inch muzzle energy looks about the same at 400 ft lbs. Also I don't want to have to buy all new magazines and .223 and 9mm are pretty much the same price nowadays At one time I had an M16 barrel that had been cut back to 4". I used it with a .22 kit. But since I had it, it had to try it out in .223, just for grins. It had lots of muzzle blast, but the chrono said 55 gr. Wolf was only going 1530 fps. That's only 286 ft-lbs. By comparison, I have a 5" AR15/9mm that can push a 115 gr. bullet at 1305 fps. That equates to 435 ft-lbs. |
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Posted: 7/13/2014 6:51:14 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryHoly shit... Thought my 6.5" Oly OA-93 was a short flame thrower..... |
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Posted: 7/21/2014 7:16:32 PM EDT
[#34]
So I'm really itching to get started with my 5" build and still I'm not 100% on what I should do.
I know I want to build a Super Shorty 5" with Law Tactical Folding adapter which will be used as a Truck Gun for SD. That is my primary purpose of building a really short gun with a folding adapter. The problem I'm running into is caliber. What I see first is muzzle energy. When comparing Non +P Bulk 115 JHP 9mm to Bulk 55gr .223, you can see the .223 actually has a higher muzzle energy. This is what started my ideas on a .223 build because it would allow me to use the same mags I already have. I also have 4 other AR's in .223/5.56 so it would share ammunition. I was then flamed and told many times that a 5" .233 would simply be a flame thrower and I should build one in 9mm which is a pistol caliber and is designed to be shot out of a short barrel. So then I started looking into 9mm AR's and thought that it would in fact be a better option. Except I ran into a problem. The common reliable 9mm AR's operate by blowback. The BCGs used in Blowback operation have added weights in them and will not work with the Law Tactical Folding adapter. So as you see I'm kind of back to square one. Is this simply not possible? |
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Posted: 7/21/2014 9:09:17 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm piecing together a ~4.5" .45 DI gun right now, it will probably end up with a LAW folder and an entry stock or my own version of something similar to the NEA CSS stock.
Of course it will have a Wraith QD flash hider, I'll probably build a Form 1 stubby can for it. |
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Posted: 7/22/2014 8:37:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm piecing together a ~4.5" .45 DI gun right now, it will probably end up with a LAW folder and an entry stock or my own version of something similar to the NEA CSS stock. Of course it will have a Wraith QD flash hider, I'll probably build a Form 1 stubby can for it. Are you machining your own parts for that build? I'm very interested in how you're going to accomplish that and what the final product will be. |
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Posted: 7/22/2014 9:01:50 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you machining your own parts for that build? I'm very interested in how you're going to accomplish that and what the final product will be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm piecing together a ~4.5" .45 DI gun right now, it will probably end up with a LAW folder and an entry stock or my own version of something similar to the NEA CSS stock. Of course it will have a Wraith QD flash hider, I'll probably build a Form 1 stubby can for it. Are you machining your own parts for that build? I'm very interested in how you're going to accomplish that and what the final product will be. Yep, just turned up, threaded and chambered the barrel from a leftover stub last night, and added the extension. Probably going to start from another 80% receiver and build it as a pistol for now instead of SBRing my existing 80% greasegun lower. I wanted to go about as short as possible on the overall length and have a QD can, or I would have probably built an integral suppressor and used a POF/Bushmaster Predator style rail to give me room to move the recoil system up front like on the SBR in my avatar so that the gun could fire and cycle folded/collapsed. Instead I'm going for maximum compactness with the option of a suppressor. |
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Posted: 7/22/2014 9:56:16 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, just turned up, threaded and chambered the barrel from a leftover stub last night, and added the extension. Probably going to start from another 80% receiver and build it as a pistol for now instead of SBRing my existing 80% greasegun lower. I wanted to go about as short as possible on the overall length and have a QD can, or I would have probably built an integral suppressor and used a POF/Bushmaster Predator style rail to give me room to move the recoil system up front like on the SBR in my avatar so that the gun could fire and cycle folded/collapsed. Instead I'm going for maximum compactness with the option of a suppressor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm piecing together a ~4.5" .45 DI gun right now, it will probably end up with a LAW folder and an entry stock or my own version of something similar to the NEA CSS stock. Of course it will have a Wraith QD flash hider, I'll probably build a Form 1 stubby can for it. Are you machining your own parts for that build? I'm very interested in how you're going to accomplish that and what the final product will be. Yep, just turned up, threaded and chambered the barrel from a leftover stub last night, and added the extension. Probably going to start from another 80% receiver and build it as a pistol for now instead of SBRing my existing 80% greasegun lower. I wanted to go about as short as possible on the overall length and have a QD can, or I would have probably built an integral suppressor and used a POF/Bushmaster Predator style rail to give me room to move the recoil system up front like on the SBR in my avatar so that the gun could fire and cycle folded/collapsed. Instead I'm going for maximum compactness with the option of a suppressor. Wow. Please post an update when you finish that. It sounds like an awesome project. I think I'm going to build a 9mm blow back, remove the weight in the rear of the bcg for the law adapter, and make up the weight in the buffer. |
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Posted: 7/22/2014 12:08:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I'm going to build a 9mm blow back, remove the weight in the rear of the bcg for the law adapter, and make up the weight in the buffer. Just keep in mind that firing with the stock folded on a DI AR will damage the retainer tab. Doing it on a blowback may very well launch it out
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Posted: 7/22/2014 2:25:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just keep in mind that firing with the stock folded on a DI AR will damage the retainer tab. Doing it on a blowback may very well launch it out Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think I'm going to build a 9mm blow back, remove the weight in the rear of the bcg for the law adapter, and make up the weight in the buffer. Just keep in mind that firing with the stock folded on a DI AR will damage the retainer tab. Doing it on a blowback may very well launch it out haha yeah I'm very aware. I wouldn't even fire a DI upper with the stock folded, let alone a blowback |
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