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Posted: 4/7/2014 5:09:01 PM EDT
[#1]
I have a letter I wrote up, but there might be some folks on here more knowledgeable than I in regards to writing to the tech branch. If you feel like helping out a veteran and possibly helping other shooters, PM me.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 9:22:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Tech Branch is not Dear Abby, and they have more important things to deal with than breaking up an argument at your basement Call of Duty marathon Lan-party. You really think they have " more important" things to do than to clarify the stupid regulations they put in place? I say keep them busy so they have less time to make up more senseless rules. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 10:02:23 AM EDT
[#3]
Great idea! Let us know the end results.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 11:46:54 AM EDT
[#4]
I like the OP's work, although I think its very risky, I applaud the ingenuity. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 12:40:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really think they have " more important" things to do than to clarify the stupid regulations laws they we put in place?
I say keep them busy so they have less time to make up more senseless rules. FIFY.  Screw FDR.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 5:54:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Clearly it passed the "cat scan"
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:01:55 PM EDT
[#7]
I like it.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 9:49:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Tech Branch is not Dear Abby, and they have more important things to deal with than breaking up an argument at your basement Call of Duty marathon Lan-party. This WILL be my sig line when I get my membership! 
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:41:59 AM EDT
[#9]
subbed for a good idea and to watch the legal ramifications... if they can rule to allow the shouldering of a sig brace, not quite sure why not this. im holding off on ordering just in case though... I don't want to be the example...
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Posted: 4/14/2014 6:40:19 AM EDT
[#10]
Thordsen got 2 letters from the ATF:
Links on this page (about half way down): http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL/p/AR-PISTOL-BUILDERS-PACKAGE-x3003761.htm PDFs: |
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Posted: 4/14/2014 8:15:27 AM EDT
[#11]
At some point it will be easier for them to repeal the archaic and pointless SBR restrictions. Until then, I applaud people like the OP making AR pistols more usable.
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Posted: 4/14/2014 10:24:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FIFY. Screw FDR.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: You really think they have " more important" things to do than to clarify the stupid regulations laws they we put in place?
I say keep them busy so they have less time to make up more senseless rules. FIFY. Screw FDR.I stand corrected. My Grandparents Did it. My generation needs to fix it. |
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Posted: 5/7/2014 1:44:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think we're gonna let you be the test case for this one. Let us know how it works out. Make sure you call our land line number. Cell phones don't accept collect calls. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 5/7/2014 5:35:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Single point sling mounted to plate at front of buffer tube. What am I missing here?¿
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Posted: 5/8/2014 4:16:41 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Single point sling mounted to plate at front of buffer tube. What am I missing here?¿ The OP's intent. What he's trying to do, is find a clever way around the NFA, and construct an effective shoulder stock, that is "not designed or intended" to be used as a shoulder stock. Therefore legal (by "intent"). Someone above suggested that sooner or later, Tech Branch will tire of endless clarifications and it will be easier for them to change "their rules". Trouble is, it's not "their rules" we are talking about, but the NFA (National Firearms Act). It is not within their power to change or strike down this law, only enforce, and clarify their opinion of various new accessories (eg. Sig Brace) and configurations of various combinations of accessories. It is quite reasonable to inquire as to their opinion of an accessory's particular mounting in order to keep from unintentionally violating the law. It is quite another to pester them with endless permutations which are placed with intent to skirt the law. To me, this one seems borderline. Seems obvious to me if they do tire of such exchanges, they will likely begin to state that the intended configuration is to create an adhoc shoulder stock from existing parts. The Sig Brace has a clear and obvious different "intended use". This placement of parts for a sling swivel may or may not. |
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Posted: 5/8/2014 7:12:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Resurrection. I am still waiting to see if he sent the letter and the response though.
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Posted: 5/8/2014 12:46:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Sorry if I missed it - but who makes the rail adapter?
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Posted: 5/8/2014 12:58:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry if I missed it - but who makes the rail adapter? It is made by ITW Nexus. It is called the QASM Picatinny RAMP. You can buy them on amazon. |
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Posted: 5/8/2014 1:24:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The OP's intent. What he's trying to do, is find a clever way around the NFA, and construct an effective shoulder stock, that is "not designed or intended" to be used as a shoulder stock. Therefore legal (by "intent"). Someone above suggested that sooner or later, Tech Branch will tire of endless clarifications and it will be easier for them to change "their rules". Trouble is, it's not "their rules" we are talking about, but the NFA (National Firearms Act). It is not within their power to change or strike down this law, only enforce, and clarify their opinion of various new accessories (eg. Sig Brace) and configurations of various combinations of accessories. It is quite reasonable to inquire as to their opinion of an accessory's particular mounting in order to keep from unintentionally violating the law. It is quite another to pester them with endless permutations which are placed with intent to skirt the law. To me, this one seems borderline. Seems obvious to me if they do tire of such exchanges, they will likely begin to state that the intended configuration is to create an adhoc shoulder stock from existing parts. The Sig Brace has a clear and obvious different "intended use". This placement of parts for a sling swivel may or may not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Single point sling mounted to plate at front of buffer tube. What am I missing here?¿ The OP's intent. What he's trying to do, is find a clever way around the NFA, and construct an effective shoulder stock, that is "not designed or intended" to be used as a shoulder stock. Therefore legal (by "intent"). Someone above suggested that sooner or later, Tech Branch will tire of endless clarifications and it will be easier for them to change "their rules". Trouble is, it's not "their rules" we are talking about, but the NFA (National Firearms Act). It is not within their power to change or strike down this law, only enforce, and clarify their opinion of various new accessories (eg. Sig Brace) and configurations of various combinations of accessories. It is quite reasonable to inquire as to their opinion of an accessory's particular mounting in order to keep from unintentionally violating the law. It is quite another to pester them with endless permutations which are placed with intent to skirt the law. To me, this one seems borderline. Seems obvious to me if they do tire of such exchanges, they will likely begin to state that the intended configuration is to create an adhoc shoulder stock from existing parts. The Sig Brace has a clear and obvious different "intended use". This placement of parts for a sling swivel may or may not. I see what you're trying to say and make some valid points, many of which had crossed my mind as well. The first impression is that it is obviously a way to get around the rules, which many will surely interpret as a direct intent to break the law. We do however, have to think about countless products of ingenuity that have allowed us to fully live out our 2a rights. Without that, we would all be trapped in a maze confusing, paranoia-induced regulatory overkill that will eventually shut down our ability to fully experience those rights. I for one, being a California resident fully appreciate ingenuity, as it is solely because of this reason that I am able to legally possess a reasonably configured AR today. The bullet button's inventor probably needs a Nobel Prize, as far as I'm concerned. As for AR Pistols, thank you to Command Arms, Thordsen, Sig, Franklin Armory, and that officer from Colorado, who wrote in with his inquiry about Shouldering the buffer tube. With reference to pestering the ATF, we can develop many reasons why we shouldn't do it. But then again, here we are on the open internet posting pictures and deliberating about it in legions of threads, everyday. One would think that we probably shouldn't even be talking openly about, we are lucky not to be in China, thanks to the preservation of our rights and the legal ingenuities that have been applied in the past to preserve it. Collective deliberation and problem solving such as what we are trying to do now (whether we are conscious of that or not) is, I believe, exactly what's going to change things around here. What difference would it make, and why not try? What if the ATF writes back: "we have determined that xxxx does not change the classification" Now wouldn't that be something. Low risk, high reward, care of the powers of 2A. When it comes to these things, I like to think about and deliberate the ways it "can" be done. We are, after all, talking about the preservation of our rights as law abiding citizens of sound mind. Coming up with a thousand ways it "can't" is the easiest thing for us to do, and there's no fun in that, I'm sure you would agree. |
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Posted: 5/8/2014 1:25:42 PM EDT
[#20]
I like the look! Very interested in the result if he chooses to write the ATF.
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Posted: 5/8/2014 3:02:17 PM EDT
[#21]
It is not a sling, it is a lanyard.
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Posted: 5/8/2014 4:35:00 PM EDT
[#22]
I sent out the letter to the Tech Branch today priority along with physical samples of the accessories. Now, we wait. Anyone know what the average response times are from the Tech Branch?
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Posted: 5/8/2014 7:50:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I sent out the letter to the Tech Branch today priority along with physical samples of the accessories. Now, we wait. Anyone know what the average response times are from the Tech Branch? Seems it is usually a couple of months. |
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Posted: 5/8/2014 8:47:33 PM EDT
[#24]
I sent one on Feb 12th, still waiting.
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Posted: 5/8/2014 9:00:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is made by ITW Nexus. It is called the QASM Picatinny RAMP. You can buy them on amazon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sorry if I missed it - but who makes the rail adapter? It is made by ITW Nexus. It is called the QASM Picatinny RAMP. You can buy them on amazon. Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/8/2014 9:39:23 PM EDT
[#26]
I would think that if you are trying to pass it off as "not intended to be a stock", then a cheek weld piece (or whatever it's called) would be a very poor choice of parts to use.
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Posted: 5/9/2014 12:36:46 AM EDT
[#27]
SBR regulations just seem really stupid at this point, but that said the OP seems to be constructing a stock out of parts, Good luck with the tech branch.
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Posted: 5/9/2014 12:17:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would think that if you are trying to pass it off as "not intended to be a stock", then a cheek weld piece (or whatever it's called) would be a very poor choice of parts to use. The Cheek weld piece is already an approved component. |
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Posted: 5/9/2014 3:13:39 PM EDT
[#29]
I like this setup more than the sig brace.
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Posted: 5/12/2014 2:09:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like this setup more than the sig brace. Same here. I am interested to see what the ATF Tech Branch's response is to the OPs inquiry. Hell I even like the Thordsen setup without the pieces that OP added better than the Sig brace. |
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Posted: 5/13/2014 2:14:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. I am interested to see what the ATF Tech Branch's response is to the OPs inquiry. Hell I even like the Thordsen setup without the pieces that OP added better than the Sig brace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I like this setup more than the sig brace. Same here. I am interested to see what the ATF Tech Branch's response is to the OPs inquiry. Hell I even like the Thordsen setup without the pieces that OP added better than the Sig brace. The brace and my idea are intended for two completely different purposes. However, I believe more people will realize how much better having a quick detach mount feature is over a stabilizing brace. |
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Posted: 5/13/2014 4:58:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The brace and my idea are intended for two completely different purposes. However, I believe more people will realize how much better having a quick detach mount feature is over a stabilizing brace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I like this setup more than the sig brace. Same here. I am interested to see what the ATF Tech Branch's response is to the OPs inquiry. Hell I even like the Thordsen setup without the pieces that OP added better than the Sig brace. The brace and my idea are intended for two completely different purposes. However, I believe more people will realize how much better having a quick detach mount feature is over a stabilizing brace. I like this setup a lot let us know how it turns out |
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Posted: 5/13/2014 5:16:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would think that if you are trying to pass it off as "not intended to be a stock", then a cheek weld piece (or whatever it's called) would be a very poor choice of parts to use. The key is the wording of the law, which is much closer to "not intended to be shouldered". The brace is a completely different purpose. This one defies ambiguity much more. Still, not saying they would not approve it. But it looks much closer to a wolf than a sheep when compared to the brace IMHO. |
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Posted: 5/13/2014 6:38:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Interesting, I am looking into building a AR Pistol, the Sig is a bit pricey to me. Like the parts you are after.
Tagged for a ruling. |
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Posted: 5/14/2014 5:25:00 AM EDT
[#35]
Tagged,because your cat looks like mine
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Posted: 5/14/2014 6:36:40 AM EDT
[#36]
Kuuuudos to OP for an awesome way to attach a sling to the end of a pistol buffer tube. I'm definitely hoping this gets the ok by tech branch!
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Posted: 5/14/2014 6:54:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
QD end plate. Mine's a Daniel Defense but lots of people make them. It's a $20 mod. http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/IMG_4026_zps6ff9a5e2.jpg Mr AR45fan , I am digging your setup. I'm in process of a build now - what length is the barrel ? At any result very , very nice Well played sir |
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Posted: 5/14/2014 12:40:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tagged,because your cat looks like mine
She is a tier 1 operator, here she is in the field.
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Posted: 5/14/2014 12:54:40 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
QD end plate. Mine's a Daniel Defense but lots of people make them. It's a $20 mod. http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/IMG_4026_zps6ff9a5e2.jpg AR45fan, I have a couple questions re: your AR pistol (if you don't mind). 1) What is the OVERALL length? 2) What is the barrel length? I am re-thinking my aversion for what I (used to) consider an aberration.I'm almost to the point of convincing myself that there is a legitimate place for one of those.
Thanks Dana ETA: If any of you other AR pistol owners want to give me some measurements (OAL and bbl. length) I would be grateful.thanks. |
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Posted: 5/30/2014 11:15:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Any word on this. ...
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Posted: 5/31/2014 8:48:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Waiting on Tech Branch...
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any word on this. ... |
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Posted: 6/1/2014 1:41:52 AM EDT
[#42]
designed and intended as a sling mount for an AR pistol
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Posted: 6/1/2014 10:31:36 AM EDT
[#43]
This is interesting. I have a legal SBR and never had a desire for an AR pistol until the Sig brace was approved. Now I am building my first pistol, LOL.
History, and especially recent BATFE decisions like the Sig brace and AFG, show that you never can tell what the decision will be, and if they will even make sense. There is no way to say how they will decide on this, but it doesn't look anymore like a stock than the Sig brace, at least not to me. hopefully the individual(s) who ruled on the Sig brace will get to decide on this request as well. |
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Posted: 6/1/2014 12:26:45 PM EDT
[#44]
I like the IDEA a lot!
Creative and super smart. Well done sir. Send your idea to CAA and get them onboard! We can call it Sb15 brace #2 
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Posted: 6/1/2014 1:10:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the IDEA a lot! Creative and super smart. Well done sir. Send your idea to CAA and get them onboard! We can call it Sb15 brace #2 http://i.imgur.com/SVW5Fsdl.jpg Nah, its no brace. Just a sling mount so probably TSA QD SAP (Tordson Saddle Adapter Quck Disconnect Sling Attachment Point) Or I suppose the CAA SA QD SAP..... I think you get the idea. 
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Posted: 6/2/2014 7:06:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More pics of the rail adapter. Held in place by the the two slots from the CAA saddle. It is held in place very solid by keeping the tolerances tight. [Made from this: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0193/4860/products/QASM_Solo_large.png?v=1364001593 Quote HistoryQuoted:
More pics of the rail adapter. Held in place by the the two slots from the CAA saddle. It is held in place very solid by keeping the tolerances tight. [Made from this: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0193/4860/products/QASM_Solo_large.png?v=1364001593 Quoted:
Quoted:
Sorry if I missed it - but who makes the rail adapter? It is made by ITW Nexus. It is called the QASM Picatinny RAMP. You can buy them on amazon. OP, It looks like you filed the tabs off the front and back of the QASM Picatinny RAMP and the side tabs are a snap in friction fit in the slots on the Thorsden? |
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Posted: 6/4/2014 4:29:45 AM EDT
[#47]
I found today that if you just take a Big Foot Door Stop and attach it to the shoulder strap or pad of a MOLLE vest, you can sit the end of the pistol buffer tube in the large opening of the door stops and it holds it perfectly! its even more comfortable then shooting my AR with a stock while wearing my vest! its not a stock, its a door stop on my chest rig lol so theres nothing illegal about it!
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Posted: 6/4/2014 5:06:36 AM EDT
[#48]
Man I am digging how this looks.
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Posted: 6/4/2014 9:05:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Thanks for posting this. Could you measure the end with just picatinny rail adapter and then again with QD? Planning a pistol build and for now going to order buffer tube cover, CAA saddle and picatinny rail adapter. Will wait on approval for QD.
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Posted: 6/4/2014 11:31:58 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found today that if you just take a Big Foot Door Stop and attach it to the shoulder strap or pad of a MOLLE vest, you can sit the end of the pistol buffer tube in the large opening of the door stops and it holds it perfectly! its even more comfortable then shooting my AR with a stock while wearing my vest! its not a stock, its a door stop on my chest rig lol so theres nothing illegal about it! Hmmm. Pics of vest? |
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