User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 1/3/2014 8:31:49 AM EDT
[#1]
Probably ok to use but best to write to them (ATF) and make sure, that way you have a letter from them stating exactly that if/when you get someone (LEO) in your face questioning about it.
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Posted: 1/3/2014 3:38:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish.
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Posted: 1/4/2014 4:38:49 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/SBR1_zpsd884248e.jpg http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/IMG_4013_zpsde6a78dd.jpg Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 4:50:25 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/SBR1_zpsd884248e.jpg http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/IMG_4013_zpsde6a78dd.jpg Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. Angled is angled. Vertical is 90.° Why would his picture have any bearing on the legality? It is quite black and white. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 4:54:14 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/SBR1_zpsd884248e.jpg http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/IMG_4013_zpsde6a78dd.jpg Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. I was just showing you a picture of it. Would you like me to put it on one of my pistols and take a picture? Geez. No one cares about a stupid angled grip. Just run it if you want. If you are afraid then don't put it on. No one is gonna prosecute you because it's an angled grip. Not a vertical grip. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 5:09:41 AM EDT
[#6]
I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG
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Posted: 1/4/2014 6:28:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 7:07:33 AM EDT
[#8]
it you are that worried then get a handstop.
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Posted: 1/4/2014 2:31:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Just a simple post to ask a question. I certainly don't understand the need for the tone of your response.
The risk associated with assuming wrong is not worth it, so I was simply asking if anyone had any knowledge of the grip being acceptable for use on a pistol. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 2:57:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Angled is angled. Vertical is 90.° Why would his picture have any bearing on the legality? It is quite black and white. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/SBR1_zpsd884248e.jpg http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/IMG_4013_zpsde6a78dd.jpg Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. Angled is angled. Vertical is 90.° Why would his picture have any bearing on the legality? It is quite black and white. Really? Because SBR's have a different legal status than a pistol and can have a buttstock and any forward grip that a long barreled rifle can. So using your "90° logic, the larger Fortis grip could be used since it is not 90° either or hell, I could just bend any grip to 89° and slap it on right? I will let you argue your logic with the ATF. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 3:06:57 PM EDT
[#11]
When is the last time anyone actually had their gun inspected by an ATF agent? No advocating anything illegal but we already have a document stating that angled grips are ok, so go with it. Don't make it harder than it is. Basically I stop asking stuff when I get the answer I want. If you keep asking, they might change their mind.
I don't think anyone has actually been prosecuted for a VFG on a pistol but I have heard of people being told to take theirs off the gun. No harm no foul. |
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Posted: 1/4/2014 4:26:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When is the last time anyone actually had their gun inspected by an ATF agent? No advocating anything illegal but we already have a document stating that angled grips are ok, so go with it. Don't make it harder than it is. Basically I stop asking stuff when I get the answer I want. If you keep asking, they might change their mind. I don't think anyone has actually been prosecuted for a VFG on a pistol but I have heard of people being told to take theirs off the gun. No harm no foul. 
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Posted: 1/4/2014 6:40:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really? Because SBR's have a different legal status than a pistol and can have a buttstock and any forward grip that a long barreled rifle can. So using your "90° logic, the larger Fortis grip could be used since it is not 90° either or hell, I could just bend any grip to 89° and slap it on right? I will let you argue your logic with the ATF. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/SBR1_zpsd884248e.jpg http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/IMG_4013_zpsde6a78dd.jpg Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. Angled is angled. Vertical is 90.° Why would his picture have any bearing on the legality? It is quite black and white. Really? Because SBR's have a different legal status than a pistol and can have a buttstock and any forward grip that a long barreled rifle can. So using your "90° logic, the larger Fortis grip could be used since it is not 90° either or hell, I could just bend any grip to 89° and slap it on right? I will let you argue your logic with the ATF. I was speaking in simplistic terms. Generally, the Vertical in VFG and Angled in AFG should be clue enough. ETA: Maybe I'll follow the status quo and send off a letter to the ATF tech branch anytime I add or change an accessory. 
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Posted: 1/4/2014 8:13:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Probably, but I would get an ATF letter.
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Posted: 1/5/2014 1:05:37 AM EDT
[#15]
I laugh at those things. The dynamics of an angle foregrip is a body armor position. Good idea, make yourself a big target, monkey see monkey do. Although, I suppose if you're going to load up on IVa armor, you've got the right idea. I just don't see a lot of armor on the all the monkeys at the range. Sure looks cool, though.
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Posted: 1/5/2014 3:16:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I laugh at those things. The dynamics of an angle foregrip is a body armor position. Good idea, make yourself a big target, monkey see monkey do. Although, I suppose if you're going to load up on IVa armor, you've got the right idea. I just don't see a lot of armor on the all the monkeys at the range. Sure looks cool, though. Angled foregrip provides me a more comfortable , less rotated grip on the weapon. With or without body armor. I couldn't care less on how it looks. |
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Posted: 1/5/2014 6:11:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Angled foregrip provides me a more comfortable , less rotated grip on the weapon. With or without body armor. I couldn't care less on how it looks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I laugh at those things. The dynamics of an angle foregrip is a body armor position. Good idea, make yourself a big target, monkey see monkey do. Although, I suppose if you're going to load up on IVa armor, you've got the right idea. I just don't see a lot of armor on the all the monkeys at the range. Sure looks cool, though. Angled foregrip provides me a more comfortable , less rotated grip on the weapon. With or without body armor. I couldn't care less on how it looks. It only works in an isosceles position which is in practical purposes mainly useful with body armor. You learn to shoot that way and that's your default level of training. I see so many isosceles positions at the range, I think it's promoted to make everyone easier targets in times of stress. Every time a see a Weaver position (which is becoming less and less frequent), I think, there's someone who's been trained. I just see a bull on everyone else. |
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Posted: 1/5/2014 6:33:08 PM EDT
[#18]
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Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. That is incorrect. |
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Posted: 1/5/2014 6:50:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is incorrect. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. That is incorrect. Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. |
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Posted: 1/5/2014 6:54:13 PM EDT
[#20]
OMG...so confusing. Must write letters
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Posted: 1/5/2014 11:39:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. That is incorrect. Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. I agree because lets face it, who doesn't have a decade to piss away in prison? Let's just assume its gtg and that no one will know the difference anyway. 
The question here iS NOT whether it has any angle to it or not. The question is if changes from a firearm being designed to shoot with one hand to a firearm designed to fire using two hands. That is the litmus test that the ATF uses, regardless of what we think, feel or assume. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 6:25:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree because lets face it, who doesn't have a decade to piss away in prison? Let's just assume its gtg and that no one will know the difference anyway.
The question here iS NOT whether it has any angle to it or not. The question is if changes from a firearm being designed to shoot with one hand to a firearm designed to fire using two hands. That is the litmus test that the ATF uses, regardless of what we think, feel or assume. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. That is incorrect. Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. I agree because lets face it, who doesn't have a decade to piss away in prison? Let's just assume its gtg and that no one will know the difference anyway.
The question here iS NOT whether it has any angle to it or not. The question is if changes from a firearm being designed to shoot with one hand to a firearm designed to fire using two hands. That is the litmus test that the ATF uses, regardless of what we think, feel or assume. Sir, what is the Magpul AFG's purpose on an AR pistol? Decoration? Ballast? Please explain. This is legal. How is that possible? 
Is this blowing your mind? ETA: What may really scare you is that ATF agents themselves don't always know what's legal or not. Some guys I work with were told that shouldering a pistol with an arm brace is illegal. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 9:05:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistorySir, what is the Magpul AFG's purpose on an AR pistol? Decoration? Ballast? Please explain.
This is legal. How is that possible? http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/XO-26b_800x235.jpg Is this blowing your mind? ETA: What may really scare you is that ATF agents themselves don't always know what's legal or not. Some guys I work with were told that shouldering a pistol with an arm brace is illegal. Not blowing my mind. That could be a registered SBR that doesn't have a buttstock, or it could be registered as an AOW or it could have an overall length of greater than 26 inches. All three cases would be legal. I am not saying that everyone that see's your legally or illegally modified pistol will automatically be able to identify it as such. The purpose of the AFG is irrelevant to the ATF. All they care about is if it changes the classification from a legally modified pistol into an illegally modified one. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 11:09:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. That is incorrect. Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. ... you're still wrong. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 1:17:51 PM EDT
[#25]
No one cares...except the Feds. I wouldn't want to risk a range officer calling the cops for a FEDERAL violation. It is NOt angled the same as the MAGPUL and I would want it in writing. Actually it looks like the angled indentation is designed to grip it in the same manner as a Vertical grip.
All these people who just do whatever they want willy nilly with no regard for the laws, as stupid as they may be is the reason gun owners get such a bad reputation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was just showing you a picture of it. Would you like me to put it on one of my pistols and take a picture? Geez. No one cares about a stupid angled grip. Just run it if you want. If you are afraid then don't put it on. No one is gonna prosecute you because it's an angled grip. Not a vertical grip. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Stop writing letters. Geez. It's an angled grip just like the Magpul AFG. Use it if you wish. http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/SBR1_zpsd884248e.jpg http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu234/carbonfly/NFA/IMG_4013_zpsde6a78dd.jpg Well since it appears as if yours is placed on an SBR and not a pistol, the question still remains for the legality of use with a pistol. I was just showing you a picture of it. Would you like me to put it on one of my pistols and take a picture? Geez. No one cares about a stupid angled grip. Just run it if you want. If you are afraid then don't put it on. No one is gonna prosecute you because it's an angled grip. Not a vertical grip. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 1:22:28 PM EDT
[#26]
If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon.
NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 1:27:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Correct that some ATF employee's don't know all the rules. However if you get a letter in writing signed by the director or whoever it is that signed all my letters asking legal questions it is a good defense in court. I could NEVER see a jury convicting...a lawyer would tear it up 1000 ways...Hell there is no way the DA would waste their money trying.
Get a hard dicked DA who may be anti gun and then give them the "its NOT illegal, besides I was not bothered enough to take 3 minutes and write a letter asking because youre laws are stupid" attitude and see how that fares for you. Me personally. I'd rather risk the 3 min's and a .45 cent stamp! |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:42:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Just write a letter!!! Its not that hard!! Then you know for sure and have proof that what you are doing is legal.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 6:01:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... you're still wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I disagree the AFG is listed by name in the ATF letter, not the degree of angle. Imo it's not worth 10 years in club fed for being wrong. I would write the letter or use a magpul AFG Bottom line it is the type not brand of grip that matters. That is incorrect. Bullshit. Stop fear mongering. You people are so insecure about this shit, may as well buy a factory pistol, leave it stock, and never let it see the light of day. People argue these stupid details, fearing "the man." If you wanted an innocuous build that garnered no public scrutiny perhaps the choice of building an ar pistol was a bad one. Most LEO's, the public in general, and even other firearms enthusiasts have little to no clue concerning ar-15 pistols. ... you're still wrong. Until it's in writing from the BATF Tech Branch that this particular angled grip is not legal, you're just blowin' smoke. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 6:32:41 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon. NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun.
Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 4:42:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun. Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon. NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun. Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? Are you simply a natural antagonistic misanthrope or do you have to practice? |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 4:41:37 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you simply a natural antagonistic misanthrope or do you have to practice? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon. NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun.
Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? Are you simply a natural antagonistic misanthrope or do you have to practice? More than anywhere else on ARF.com, the pistol section is often rife with confusion, misinformation, and fear. It gets old. If it's such a big deal write the letter and share the results, is all. Otherwise, everything myself, you, and others have contributed is bullshit. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 7:54:30 AM EDT
[#33]
Angled
Angled 
Vertical 
Vertical 
Doesn't take an aerospace degree to figure out what you should or should not be using within the guidelines of the law. Please remember innocent till proven guilty. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 9:15:32 AM EDT
[#34]
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Angled http://fortismfg.com/image/cache/data/Grip/Short-1-640x480.jpg Angled http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/380/380749.jpg Vertical http://fortismfg.com/image/cache/data/Grip/Shift-3-640x480.jpg Vertical http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9223/rvgcomp01b.jpg Doesn't take an aerospace degree to figure out what you should or should not be using within the guidelines of the law. Please remember innocent till proven guilty. Uh, # 1 looks like a shortened version of # 3 - if # 3 is considered vertical by BATFE, then how is shortening it changing the grip angle? (Even though #3 is clearly not vertical by the dictionary, maybe BATFE has twisted the English language again...) |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 10:08:44 AM EDT
[#35]
I'll just put in my 2 cents. I wondered about using the AFG2 since last August. I called my local ATF branch in my city and was told that the AGF2 is not considered a vertical grip. He did commend me for trying to do things legally and he said it's not only what the AGF2 means to me or anybody else. It's what it means to the ATF agent whom will question me and having a piece of paper in hand from the ATF is what counts. Otherwise, because of his/her experience or lack there of (ignorance to the concept) the agent may confiscate my rifle and send it in to the ATF for clarification. Now, I don't want my rifle being temporarily taken from me because of ignorance. So, I wrote the ATF to get my own letter before I installed the AFG2. I sent two letters. I have not gotten a response or returned letter, so I know they have received it.
I recently got an email from an ATF agent at the technical division and was told that the AFG2 does not change the rifle classification and can be used. I printed out and put the letter in an envelope and carry it in my case when I'm at the range. I questioned the validity of these ATF letters floating around, so I did my own homework and can confirm the AFG2 can be attached to a pistol and does not result in the making of a firearm subject to NFA controls, and may lawfully be added to your pistol without changing its GCA classification. I gave my word that I wouldn't post the full communication nor the agents name...but there you go. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 12:21:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Angled http://fortismfg.com/image/cache/data/Grip/Short-1-640x480.jpg Angled http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/380/380749.jpg Vertical http://fortismfg.com/image/cache/data/Grip/Shift-3-640x480.jpg Vertical http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9223/rvgcomp01b.jpg Doesn't take an aerospace degree to figure out what you should or should not be using within the guidelines of the law. Please remember innocent till proven guilty. While that's my take on it, opinions here definitely vary. There's always ATF agents creepin' around looking for anything to bust ya on, doncha know 
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Posted: 1/9/2014 12:33:02 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll just put in my 2 cents. I wondered about using the AFG2 since last August. I called my local ATF branch in my city and was told that the AGF2 is not considered a vertical grip. He did commend me for trying to do things legally and he said it's not only what the AGF2 means to me or anybody else. It's what it means to the ATF agent whom will question me and having a piece of paper in hand from the ATF is what counts. Otherwise, because of his/her experience or lack there of (ignorance to the concept) the agent may confiscate my rifle and send it in to the ATF for clarification. Now, I don't want my rifle being temporarily taken from me because of ignorance. So, I wrote the ATF to get my own letter before I installed the AFG2. I sent two letters. I have not gotten a response or returned letter, so I know they have received it. I recently got an email from an ATF agent at the technical division and was told that the AFG2 does not change the rifle classification and can be used. I printed out and put the letter in an envelope and carry it in my case when I'm at the range. I questioned the validity of these ATF letters floating around, so I did my own homework and can confirm the AFG2 can be attached to a pistol and does not result in the making of a firearm subject to NFA controls, and may lawfully be added to your pistol without changing its GCA classification. I gave my word that I wouldn't post the full communication nor the agents name...but there you go. Now that's playing it safe.....he/she said don't mean jack...but letter from ATF means everything..... Again do what you think is right, but I am sure half of us here don't have the energy or $$$$ to fight with ATF. If you happen to have a bad day and run into a hard a$$ ATF agent and if he said it's not legal and take your firearm, there isn't anything you can say/do at that moment....so be prepared, know you law in writing.....my $0.02
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Posted: 1/9/2014 12:41:06 PM EDT
[#38]
I imagine it simple matters if you can hold it like a vertical grip. Feds don't care what you call it for marketing purposes. I would be very interested to see that angled grip image overlaid on some stubby vertical grips. That back angle to the fortis seems to allow vertical grip use like any low profile grip. Personally I wouldn't take the chance, but not for fear, I just don't see a benefit for the risk.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 2:19:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Lets just put this to rest because ya'all know your going to buy an angled fore girp anyway if you don't have a tax stamp.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 2:26:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now, I don't want my rifle being temporarily taken from me because of ignorance. So, I wrote the ATF to get my own letter before I installed the AFG2. I sent two letters. I have not gotten a response or returned letter, so I know they have received it.
Any grip is perfectly legal on any rifle under Federal law. Why would you even bother writing the ATF about that? |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 2:31:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any grip is perfectly legal on any rifle under Federal law. Why would you even bother writing the ATF about that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Now, I don't want my rifle being temporarily taken from me because of ignorance. So, I wrote the ATF to get my own letter before I installed the AFG2. I sent two letters. I have not gotten a response or returned letter, so I know they have received it.
Any grip is perfectly legal on any rifle under Federal law. Why would you even bother writing the ATF about that? It's a pistol. My mistake in wording. That's why context is important. The smart ones know what I mean 
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Posted: 1/9/2014 2:58:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More than anywhere else on ARF.com, the pistol section is often rife with confusion, misinformation, and fear. It gets old. If it's such a big deal write the letter and share the results, is all. Otherwise, everything myself, you, and others have contributed is bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon. NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun.
Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? Are you simply a natural antagonistic misanthrope or do you have to practice? More than anywhere else on ARF.com, the pistol section is often rife with confusion, misinformation, and fear. It gets old. If it's such a big deal write the letter and share the results, is all. Otherwise, everything myself, you, and others have contributed is bullshit. At least you included yourself. 
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Posted: 1/9/2014 4:36:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More than anywhere else on ARF.com, the pistol section is often rife with confusion, misinformation, and fear. It gets old. If it's such a big deal write the letter and share the results, is all. Otherwise, everything myself, you, and others have contributed is bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon. NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun. Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? Are you simply a natural antagonistic misanthrope or do you have to practice? More than anywhere else on ARF.com, the pistol section is often rife with confusion, misinformation, and fear. It gets old. If it's such a big deal write the letter and share the results, is all. Otherwise, everything myself, you, and others have contributed is bullshit. That is the only thing I have contributed to this thread. |
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Posted: 1/9/2014 6:42:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You didn't answer my question. That is the only thing I have contributed to this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If this isn't registered properly with a stamp as an AOW it is illegal! Stupid...yes, nonetheless I was at a range with 3 NFA items. A suppressor and 2 SBR's. I showed documentation for suppressor and 1 SBR and could not find the paperwork for the other SBr. I literally keep a binder but it must have fallen out. I went to my car to search for it and before I could walk back in with the paperwork that in fact did fall out I was met by a local LEO who was called by the range master. had I not had the paperwork I think I could have had a bad afternoon. NOW Imagine if it wasn't registered at all? Don't take the risk because internet tough guys are trying to convince you too. ...and? Someone called the police saying I was firing a machine gun. No paperwork was needed to prove that my 1911 wasn't a machine gun.
Just like my completely unrelated and irrelevant story, suppressors and sbr's are a different matter altogether. Are you suggesting everyone have a letter stating that their ar pistol is a pistol or non rifle firearm? Are you simply a natural antagonistic misanthrope or do you have to practice? More than anywhere else on ARF.com, the pistol section is often rife with confusion, misinformation, and fear. It gets old. If it's such a big deal write the letter and share the results, is all. Otherwise, everything myself, you, and others have contributed is bullshit. That is the only thing I have contributed to this thread. What question? Everyone is free to express their opinion, but such remarks have no place in a tech forum. |
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Posted: 1/10/2014 5:43:18 AM EDT
[#45]
Less talk. More building.
Look at that sexy fortis rail and sexy fortis grip with a rainier break. Excellent SBR! That little mini break was on sale during the holidays - bad ass combo IMO. We should all strive for this.
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