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Basic
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Posted: 11/27/2013 12:42:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/27/2013 12:48:50 PM EST by hanschien]
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4115

I wonder if this is OK with the ATF like the Magpul AFG.
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Link Posted: 11/27/2013 1:25:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By hanschien:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4115

I wonder if this is OK with the ATF like the Magpul AFG.
View Quote


Wow thats interesting...Looks like an angled fore grip to me...Idk if they made their ruling with a specific angle in mind, if so, that may be an issue as it looks more vertical than any other AFG ive seen, but looks okay.
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Link Posted: 11/27/2013 2:19:53 PM EST
Its not vertical, that is for sure.
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Link Posted: 11/27/2013 5:40:38 PM EST
Looks like the work of the Devil
O.K....I sold all my HKs, but I have to keep my Identity!
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Link Posted: 11/27/2013 6:17:55 PM EST
It's an AFG bottle opener.
I hit it and it goes bang
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Link Posted: 11/27/2013 6:34:17 PM EST
I would bet no because it looks like you could get your thumb through it.
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Link Posted: 11/28/2013 12:31:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By click_bang:
I would bet no because it looks like you could get your thumb through it.
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Don't think that would matter as the law was based upon being vertical, regardless your point is valid in regards to getting your thumb ripped off your hand when it gets stuck in that gap and you accidentally take a tumble. Looks very....should I say .... Euro!
Deo vindice
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Link Posted: 11/28/2013 6:43:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By hanschien:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4115

I wonder if this is OK with the ATF like the Magpul AFG.
View Quote
Why don't you ask them?
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but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

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Link Posted: 1/5/2014 10:11:53 AM EST
Just remember to couch your reference & terminology to read - angled fore grip...- and maybe include the link -or- a copy of the BATFE correspondence letter that implies that the Magpul -branded- AFG as of no consequence so far as affecting the status of the AR pistol being considered a -handgun- and in NO WAY implied as being a rifle because of the incorporation of the angled fore grip.....

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Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Why don't you ask them?
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Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By hanschien:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4115

I wonder if this is OK with the ATF like the Magpul AFG.
Why don't you ask them?

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Link Posted: 1/5/2014 3:00:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2014 6:16:00 PM EST by HYRYSC]
Dup post.

Course the previous one degraded pretty quickly into a pissing match of non-answers and poor advice, so it doesn't seem as if there is a firm answer yet.

Previous post
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Link Posted: 1/5/2014 3:54:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/5/2014 3:55:39 PM EST by mphilman321]
You're not going to get a definitive answer without asking the definitive source - the ATF. But with that said, its not a vertical grip, Fortis has a vertical grip that looks nothing like that.

My money is on it being legal for pistols.
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Link Posted: 1/6/2014 10:02:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By mphilman321:
You're not going to get a definitive answer without asking the definitive source - the ATF. But with that said, its not a vertical grip, Fortis has a vertical grip that looks nothing like that.

My money is on it being legal for pistols.
View Quote


I am with you on that. I am preparing to send a letter. Even though I have been told that I was fear-mongering and that to just assume that it was legal, to me its not worth the 10 years in the pokey.

Rock on.
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Link Posted: 1/6/2014 10:06:23 AM EST
It is cool and all, but I wish it had a hand stop built in.
When it comes to guns, there is no line in the sand, just empty casings.

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Link Posted: 1/6/2014 11:50:19 AM EST
While very Euro as stated earlier and rather nice looking, but it's a lawsuit waiting to happen when the thing rips someones finger off. Fortis will be sued....you heard it here first.

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Link Posted: 1/6/2014 12:06:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2014 12:08:39 PM EST by Yelpers]
Too me it looks like an angled grip with an incorporated short stock at an angle below the bore. My guess is that it would be denied for use on pistols, but ATF has never published a definitive interpretation of what a grip is (or short stock at an angle below the bore). They also have never addressed hand guards on pistols which are primarily used for keeping your hand from getting hot while holding the pistol with the off hand. At least that's how New York views hand guards (what they call a barrel shroud).
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Link Posted: 1/23/2014 5:51:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2014 5:52:03 PM EST by roverich]
I have a question about this one , Not being a vertical grip but being a magwell funnel / magwell grip ......It would work for me as i have large hands and cant quite get a grip on the Magpul Afg

http://store.commandarms.com/products/MGRIP1.html
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 9:28:28 AM EST
Not this again.…


The Fortis AFG is about a 2/3 the size of a Magpul AFG and is definitely NOT a vertical grip nor can it be used as such. That 'hook' is just big enough for your pinky finger.
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 10:13:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/24/2014 10:17:19 AM EST by Yelpers]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Not this again.…
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/snwbrdrcr/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/snwbrdrcr/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg</a>

The Fortis AFG is about a 2/3 the size of a Magpul AFG and is definitely NOT a vertical grip nor can it be used as such. That 'hook' is just big enough for your pinky finger.
View Quote


It's not your call. That grip has not been approved. There has been no technical letter with Fortis Shift in the body that has been posted on this board or any other (that I can find). I'm pretty good with multiple search engines and that includes text searches within PDF files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIV9oKbYSM
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 10:49:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/24/2014 10:51:45 AM EST by snwbrdrcr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yelpers:


It's not your call. That grip has not been approved. There has been no technical letter with Fortis Shift in the body that has been posted on this board or any other (that I can find). I'm pretty good with multiple search engines and that includes text searches within PDF files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIV9oKbYSM
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Not this again.…
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/snwbrdrcr/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/snwbrdrcr/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg</a>

The Fortis AFG is about a 2/3 the size of a Magpul AFG and is definitely NOT a vertical grip nor can it be used as such. That 'hook' is just big enough for your pinky finger.


It's not your call. That grip has not been approved. There has been no technical letter with Fortis Shift in the body that has been posted on this board or any other (that I can find). I'm pretty good with multiple search engines and that includes text searches within PDF files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIV9oKbYSM


Then stop wasting your time using your 'google-fu' and just contact the ATF. The original consensus was that their ruling was based upon the angle of the grip, but you're welcome to prove everybody else wrong.
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:14:51 AM EST
Does adding this make it a Short Barreled Assault Pistol?
True Story

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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 11:28:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ScoeyAz:
Does adding this make it a Short Barreled Assault Pistol?
True Story

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u655/Scoeyaz/Rant/GlockAssultPistol_zpsf3069a74.jpg
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You're lucky that wasn't on an actual gun, son.
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:12:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/24/2014 12:23:03 PM EST by Yelpers]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:


Then stop wasting your time using your 'google-fu' and just contact the ATF. The original consensus was that their ruling was based upon the angle of the grip, but you're welcome to prove everybody else wrong.
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Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Not this again.…
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/snwbrdrcr/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/snwbrdrcr/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg</a>

The Fortis AFG is about a 2/3 the size of a Magpul AFG and is definitely NOT a vertical grip nor can it be used as such. That 'hook' is just big enough for your pinky finger.


It's not your call. That grip has not been approved. There has been no technical letter with Fortis Shift in the body that has been posted on this board or any other (that I can find). I'm pretty good with multiple search engines and that includes text searches within PDF files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIV9oKbYSM


Then stop wasting your time using your 'google-fu' and just contact the ATF. The original consensus was that their ruling was based upon the angle of the grip, but you're welcome to prove everybody else wrong.


The grip has not been approved for pistols. There is no original consensus; there are only technical letters, of which the Fortis Shift is not included.

There's no difference in the design of these grips. One is short and the other isn't.




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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:26:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yelpers:


The grip has not been approved for pistols. There is no original consensus; there are only technical letters, of which the Fortis Shift is not included.

There's no difference in the design of these grips. One is short and the other isn't.

https://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/8afe120cb962fa741100d4d338021343.jpg


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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Not this again.…
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/snwbrdrcr/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/snwbrdrcr/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg</a>

The Fortis AFG is about a 2/3 the size of a Magpul AFG and is definitely NOT a vertical grip nor can it be used as such. That 'hook' is just big enough for your pinky finger.


It's not your call. That grip has not been approved. There has been no technical letter with Fortis Shift in the body that has been posted on this board or any other (that I can find). I'm pretty good with multiple search engines and that includes text searches within PDF files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIV9oKbYSM


Then stop wasting your time using your 'google-fu' and just contact the ATF. The original consensus was that their ruling was based upon the angle of the grip, but you're welcome to prove everybody else wrong.


The grip has not been approved for pistols. There is no original consensus; there are only technical letters, of which the Fortis Shift is not included.

There's no difference in the design of these grips. One is short and the other isn't.

https://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/8afe120cb962fa741100d4d338021343.jpg



One can be gripped, like a grip. The other you hold at an angle, as the name implies. Obvious grip styles are obvious.

The above is not offered as legal advise and should not be implied as such.
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 12:44:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/24/2014 12:51:56 PM EST by Yelpers]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rick_A:

One can be gripped, like a grip. The other you hold at an angle, as the name implies. Obvious grip styles are obvious.

The above is not offered as legal advise and should not be implied as such.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rick_A:
Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Originally Posted By Yelpers:
Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Not this again.…
<a href="http://s157.photobucket.com/user/snwbrdrcr/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/snwbrdrcr/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg</a>

The Fortis AFG is about a 2/3 the size of a Magpul AFG and is definitely NOT a vertical grip nor can it be used as such. That 'hook' is just big enough for your pinky finger.


It's not your call. That grip has not been approved. There has been no technical letter with Fortis Shift in the body that has been posted on this board or any other (that I can find). I'm pretty good with multiple search engines and that includes text searches within PDF files.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZIV9oKbYSM


Then stop wasting your time using your 'google-fu' and just contact the ATF. The original consensus was that their ruling was based upon the angle of the grip, but you're welcome to prove everybody else wrong.


The grip has not been approved for pistols. There is no original consensus; there are only technical letters, of which the Fortis Shift is not included.

There's no difference in the design of these grips. One is short and the other isn't.

https://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/8afe120cb962fa741100d4d338021343.jpg



One can be gripped, like a grip. The other you hold at an angle, as the name implies. Obvious grip styles are obvious.

The above is not offered as legal advise and should not be implied as such.


We can go back to the ZIP 2 pistol again (from the other thread) if you'd like; but again, it does not matter what a manufacturer calls something.

But I'll try to explain with an example. Let's begin.

Here's a question for you. Does one need to register a suppressor with the ATF?
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 1:30:47 PM EST
Your mom will be so proud of you when you win the Internet.
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Link Posted: 1/24/2014 3:31:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Your mom will be so proud of you when you win the Internet.
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Your posts so far are inaccurate and non-constructive. It's a yes or no question, feel free.
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Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:19:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/25/2014 8:19:57 AM EST by ScoeyAz]
Do this... write to Fortis on their facebook page... tell them to write the ATF and figure it out.. that way they can include it in every box, sell more angled grips (!) and everyone can sleep safely at night.

Don't run a vertical grip on a short barreled rifle.

Run angled.

Know the law.. use common sense for the state you live in. Don't scare the sht out of the ppl by waving it around like a hairy potter book either.

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Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:46:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/25/2014 8:46:59 AM EST by sparky923]
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Originally Posted By snwbrdrcr:
Your mom will be so proud of you when you win the Internet.
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ETA: At least he's not typing in all caps or colors for emphasis.
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Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:47:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ScoeyAz:
Do this... write to Fortis on their facebook page... tell them to write the ATF and figure it out.. that way they can include it in every box, sell more angled grips (!) and everyone can sleep safely at night.

Don't run a vertical grip on a short barreled rifle.Why not? Vertical grips are GTG on an SBR.

Run angled.

Know the law.. use common sense for the state you live in. Don't scare the sht out of the ppl by waving it around like a hairy potter book either.

View Quote

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Link Posted: 1/25/2014 8:54:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/26/2014 6:55:09 AM EST by ScoeyAz]
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Originally Posted By sparky923:

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Originally Posted By sparky923:
Originally Posted By ScoeyAz:
Do this... write to Fortis on their facebook page... tell them to write the ATF and figure it out.. that way they can include it in every box, sell more angled grips (!) and everyone can sleep safely at night.

Don't run a vertical grip on a short barreled PISTOL (happy now?).Why not? Vertical grips are GTG on an SBR.
Run angled.

Know the law.. use common sense for the state you live in. Don't scare the sht out of the ppl by waving it around like a hairy potter book either.



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Link Posted: 1/25/2014 12:07:10 PM EST
Ok, the answer is no. You do not have to register suppressors with the ATF. Why is this relevant. Well, because from a statutory perspective only mufflers and silencers are NFA firearms. And even though every manufacturer uses the term suppressor, they are all registered as either a silencer or a muffler.

And the same thing goes for vertical grip or angled grip. These terms are not defined within statute. All that matters is whether or not your pistol has a single short stock at an angle below the line of the bore. What is a stock then? It's not defined but anecdotal evidence suggest it's anything that can be gripped with one hand using at least one finger and a thumb. That is a short stock and you're only allowed to have one on any pistol less than 26" OAL.

Grip is irrelevant. Angled is irrelevant because even a vertical grip is at a 90% angle below the line of bore. People are confused because they think a manufacturer label means something. It means NOTHING.

The Magpul AFG is legal because someone at ATF decided it isn't a short stock. And that's the only reason it's legal, PERIOD.

And until someone at ATF says the Fortis Shift is not a short stock, it will remain a sketchy item to install on a barrel shroud (the only statutory term for a handguard) of a pistol less than 26" OAL. Why is it sketchy? The picture above and the video I posted are self explanatory. All it takes is a one finger, one thumb grip to be a stock.
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Link Posted: 1/31/2014 6:55:34 AM EST
OP, just send a letter w/ a pic of the grip and get your reply approving you. In your letter, reference similar letters or rulings apprving the AFG
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