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Posted: 12/19/2011 1:44:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Mine would do the same.
I upgraded the extractor and stepped to an H2 buffer at the same time, and problem went away. I would try an O-ring around the extractor spring (increases tension) and try again...or do it right and buy the correct upgraded parts (black insert). |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 3:15:39 PM EDT
[#2]
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!
edited to add, I tested it outside tonight . I am still seeing spots. Looked like a Saturn rocket was launching. Not to mention the noise! 7.5 incher makes big boom! |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 3:15:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Mine would do the same. I upgraded the extractor and stepped to an H2 buffer at the same time, and problem went away. I would try an O-ring around the extractor spring (increases tension) and try again...or do it right and buy the correct upgraded parts (black insert). Same for me. I got FTE about every 3-4 shots. I pulled it apart, felt the extractor tension and it was really weak. Upgraded it and it hasn't had an FTE since. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 5:23:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Is the H2 the best for a 7.5 inch upper or should I go H3? I am planning a pistol build.
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Posted: 12/19/2011 7:05:33 PM EDT
[#5]
It sounds like the bolt is trying to extract the cartridge while it is still expanded from firing (system is over-gassed). A heavier buffer and or an extra power buffer spring will slow this process down. I would try the H3 and then maybe an extra power spring if that doesn't help things.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 7:46:27 AM EDT
[#6]
I run an M16 carrier, H2 buffer, standard carbine spring, and a BCM extractor spring up grade.
Dave N |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 1:22:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!! As mentioned, it worked fine in other rifles because the gas pressure is lower in a longer gas system. Your pistol, with short gas system, is causing the brass to start being ejected while the pressure is high (higher than if used in a rifle)... The stronger extractor spring has more "grab" on the brass to help pull it out while under pressure. As mentioned, a heavier buffer is a good idea as well. Enjoy! |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 2:29:24 PM EDT
[#8]
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the lock time, giving the brass a chance to shrink.
Dave N |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 7:08:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
H2
Is the H2 the best for a 7.5 inch upper or should I go H3? I am planning a pistol build. |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 7:34:37 PM EDT
[#10]
JSE upper?
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Posted: 12/20/2011 7:47:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Tungsten buffer (spikes) and BCM upgrade kit. Buy several of the kits because shipping is ridiculous.
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Posted: 12/20/2011 9:31:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
JSE upper? nope |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 7:47:18 AM EDT
[#13]
I had this trouble and all new parts and over looked the one basic thing !! Make sure the gun is oiled very well when its cherry !!! Work it by hand for about an hour befor you go to the range to start the pre break in. new bolts love to drag and slow things down making it look like other shit is wrong.
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Posted: 12/21/2011 4:56:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 5:21:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 6:02:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Dwell time is the time that your gas operated weapon maintains pressure Quoted: Quoted: The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. to continue the cycling of the weapon. It primarily exists from the time the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel to the time the bullet exits the muzzle. If the mass and/or spring power is too great to move with the gas, the pressure will still drop to zero when the bullet leaves the barrel. It will not cycle, or it may short cycle, but it will NOT "blow up". By the way, the AR is not a blow back system. A blow back system obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge. The AR is a direct impingement system which directs gas from a fired cartridge directly to the bolt carrier or slide assembly to cycle the action. |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 6:28:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dwell time is the time that your gas operated weapon maintains pressure to continue the cycling of the weapon. It primarily exists from the time the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel to the time the bullet exits the muzzle.
Quoted:
Quoted:
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. If the mass and/or spring power is too great to move with the gas, the pressure will still drop to zero when the bullet leaves the barrel. It will not cycle, or it may short cycle, but it will NOT "blow up". By the way, the AR is not a blow back system. A blow back system obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge. The AR is a direct impingement system which directs gas from a fired cartridge directly to the bolt carrier or slide assembly to cycle the action. My bad, you are correct. What's important though is lock time, and mass has a big effect. |
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Posted: 12/21/2011 6:57:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer.Quoted: Quoted: Dwell time is the time that your gas operated weapon maintains pressure to continue the cycling of the weapon. It primarily exists from the time the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel to the time the bullet exits the muzzle.Quoted: Quoted: The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. If the mass and/or spring power is too great to move with the gas, the pressure will still drop to zero when the bullet leaves the barrel. It will not cycle, or it may short cycle, but it will NOT "blow up". By the way, the AR is not a blow back system. A blow back system obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge. The AR is a direct impingement system which directs gas from a fired cartridge directly to the bolt carrier or slide assembly to cycle the action. My bad, you are correct. What's important though is lock time, and mass has a big effect. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. |
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Posted: 12/22/2011 4:29:17 PM EDT
[#19]
It won't run because it doesn't have any legs.
Sorry I could not resist |
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Posted: 12/22/2011 5:02:30 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Thank you for correcting that. |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 4:12:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?"  |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 5:53:35 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?" This is a TECH forum. If we all start using any terminology we want instead of the correct ones we loose the ability to communicate proper information and end up simply spreading mis-information and rumors. You can go to GD and get, that so why don't you just skip back over there where you'll be happier with your unhelpful, BS posts. By the way Smoking Loon is from the Sebastiani Winery in Napa Valley, California, it's not French, and as wine goes pretty much sucks. So drink all you like just refrain from posting here while doing so. Have a Merry Christmas.  |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 6:11:02 AM EDT
[#23]
I agree. I got in a hurry and posted the wrong information/terminology. It needed to be corrected.
I was on another forum and am getting grief for disagreeing about a DPMS being a worthy "combat" weapon. "Used by contractors" 
Dave N |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 6:19:16 AM EDT
[#24]
Have a Merry Christmas Dave N.
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Posted: 12/23/2011 9:50:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer.
But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?"
This is a TECH forum. If we all start using any terminology we want instead of the correct ones we loose the ability to communicate proper information and end up simply spreading mis-information and rumors. You can go to GD and get, that so why don't you just skip back over there where you'll be happier with your unhelpful, BS posts. By the way Smoking Loon is from the Sebastiani Winery in Napa Valley, California, it's not French, and as wine goes pretty much sucks. So drink all you like just refrain from posting here while doing so. Have a Merry Christmas.
Well I agree, I hate it when people misspeak and if that is me, I'm glad to have someone correct me. Not thinking clearly I guess. There are enough misconceptions in the gun world, we don't need to add more. |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 11:28:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?" This is a TECH forum. If we all start using any terminology we want instead of the correct ones we loose the ability to communicate proper information and end up simply spreading mis-information and rumors. You can go to GD and get, that so why don't you just skip back over there where you'll be happier with your unhelpful, BS posts. By the way Smoking Loon is from the Sebastiani Winery in Napa Valley, California, it's not French, and as wine goes pretty much sucks. So drink all you like just refrain from posting here while doing so. Have a Merry Christmas. Well I agree, I hate it when people misspeak and if that is me, I'm glad to have someone correct me. Not thinking clearly I guess. There are enough misconceptions in the gun world, we don't need to add more. That's all I'm doing with my corrections, just trying to keep misconception and misinformation to a minimum. If my posts seem a bit blunt I apologize, I do not have the greatest people skills. I'm not trying to call anyone wrong or show them up, my only motivation is to provide accurate information, I have gotten alot from ARFCOM and I'd like to return some. I wish everyone a most Merry Christmas and a great New Year! Be safe and don't shoot your eye out!  |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 5:09:49 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!! As mentioned, it worked fine in other rifles because the gas pressure is lower in a longer gas system. Your pistol, with short gas system, is causing the brass to start being ejected while the pressure is high (higher than if used in a rifle)... The stronger extractor spring has more "grab" on the brass to help pull it out while under pressure. As mentioned, a heavier buffer is a good idea as well. Enjoy! Careful with this! The gun will function, but your extractor will break VERY early. Putting a stiffer extractor spring in is just a band aid for the problem of being way over gassed, or having too much dwell time. Check where you brass is ejecting (should be about 4 o'clock), and also fire a few rounds in the dark and see if you get a fire ball in the ejection port. If you get a fire ball, you are over gassed, and the casing is being ejected while still under pressure (bullet isn't out the end of the barrel yet). This is bad, and your extractor is not long for this world. |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 5:14:01 PM EDT
[#28]
what do you suggest if not bumping up the extractor. You are warning without providing a solution. You aren't related to my ex-wife , are you
What's your suggestion? Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!! As mentioned, it worked fine in other rifles because the gas pressure is lower in a longer gas system. Your pistol, with short gas system, is causing the brass to start being ejected while the pressure is high (higher than if used in a rifle)... The stronger extractor spring has more "grab" on the brass to help pull it out while under pressure. As mentioned, a heavier buffer is a good idea as well. Enjoy! Careful with this! The gun will function, but your extractor will break VERY early. Putting a stiffer extractor spring in is just a band aid for the problem of being way over gassed, or having too much dwell time. Check where you brass is ejecting (should be about 4 o'clock), and also fire a few rounds in the dark and see if you get a fire ball in the ejection port. If you get a fire ball, you are over gassed, and the casing is being ejected while still under pressure (bullet isn't out the end of the barrel yet). This is bad, and your extractor is not long for this world. |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 5:58:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Heavier buffer and heavier spring are the simplest thing to try. If the thing is WAY over gassed there is nothing you can do, except get the gas port closed up.
Very short barreled ARs with short gas systems are inherently more violent than a mid length or rifle length system. You are increasing the pressure as you reduce the barrel length and gas tube length and asking parts designed for a 20" barrel to deal with the added stress. I've experienced a whole batch of WAY over gassed 16" 6.8s with carbine gas systems that kept breaking extractors. Returned the crap, and went to a brand with a mid length gas system with the proper port size, and they run like like hell and are much smoother. I think in reality, if you are depending on a 7" AR as a weapon that might save your life, I'd be replacing the extractor every few hundred rounds. I've never played with one, but I don't know that you could really get everything tuned so it runs like a 14.5 or 16" gun. Quoted:
what do you suggest if not bumping up the extractor. You are warning without providing a solution. You aren't related to my ex-wife , are you
What's your suggestion? Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!! As mentioned, it worked fine in other rifles because the gas pressure is lower in a longer gas system. Your pistol, with short gas system, is causing the brass to start being ejected while the pressure is high (higher than if used in a rifle)... The stronger extractor spring has more "grab" on the brass to help pull it out while under pressure. As mentioned, a heavier buffer is a good idea as well. Enjoy! Careful with this! The gun will function, but your extractor will break VERY early. Putting a stiffer extractor spring in is just a band aid for the problem of being way over gassed, or having too much dwell time. Check where you brass is ejecting (should be about 4 o'clock), and also fire a few rounds in the dark and see if you get a fire ball in the ejection port. If you get a fire ball, you are over gassed, and the casing is being ejected while still under pressure (bullet isn't out the end of the barrel yet). This is bad, and your extractor is not long for this world. |
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Posted: 12/23/2011 6:15:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Install an adjustable gas system
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Posted: 12/23/2011 7:01:41 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Install an adjustable gas system Adjustable gas block Kies sells one for a very reasonable price. Dave N |
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Posted: 12/31/2011 12:47:53 PM EDT
[#32]
what heavy buffer should I get? which manufacturer and what weight is needed? The Colt 9mm comes with a 8 oz one. I have an MGI that measure close to 6, but they are very expensive for a toy gun. Know anything about www.heavybuffers.com?
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Posted: 12/31/2011 2:39:08 PM EDT
[#33]
For what it's worth, I have a LMT 10.5 upper with a .071 gas port under a factory pinned standard FSB. It has a Denny's Thunder Bolt BCG. I run a H to H2 buffer (depending on the ammo) with a standard carbine spring and carbine length pistol tube. This setup has +/- 4000 rounds (and that is a very conservative estimate) through it without a problem.
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Posted: 12/31/2011 3:03:29 PM EDT
[#34]
10.5 inchers have never been a problem for me with stock type gun setups; it's the 7 incghers that are contrary, and rightfully so.
I tried the MGI tonight. 4 rounds fired and then started having probs.. they would eject but the bolt rested on top of the brass casing of the next round trying to come out. switched back to regular 3 oz and ran fine. I was using the new Surefire 60 round mag- not sure if that mag may have contributed to the problems (some have indicated in other threads that the SF mags are inherently screwed). Guess we'll see. |
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Posted: 12/31/2011 4:12:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Gotcha. I never did go down to a barrel under the 10.5. Seemed like too many problems to work out just to end up with a less the 100% reliable firearm. As a hobby/range toy I can see the appeal however.10.5 inchers have never been a problem for me with stock type gun setups; it's the 7 incghers that are contrary, and rightfully so. I tried the MGI tonight. 4 rounds fired and then started having probs.. they would eject but the bolt rested on top of the brass casing of the next round trying to come out. switched back to regular 3 oz and ran fine. I was using the new Surefire 60 round mag- not sure if that mag may have contributed to the problems (some have indicated in other threads that the SF mags are inherently screwed). Guess we'll see. I have an 8" barreled Colt Anaconda the fills the gap between my 10.5s and regular pistols. |
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Posted: 1/5/2012 7:25:12 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?" This is a TECH forum. If we all start using any terminology we want instead of the correct ones we loose the ability to communicate proper information and end up simply spreading mis-information and rumors. You can go to GD and get, that so why don't you just skip back over there where you'll be happier with your unhelpful, BS posts. By the way Smoking Loon is from the Sebastiani Winery in Napa Valley, California, it's not French, and as wine goes pretty much sucks. So drink all you like just refrain from posting here while doing so. Have a Merry Christmas. Lighten up, man! I merely meant that you are one of the people who knows what they are talking about, and who by extension tend to baffle the less-informed from time to time. I am definitely of the 'use the proper terminology' camp as well. I know a bit about wine, thank you very much. I've been collecting and drinking it for 20 years. The JOKE was the Smoking Loon reference. I didn't know jokes were verboten in a tech forum... I appreciate your technical knowledge regarding gas-operated firearms, and did not intend to ruffle any feathers by joking about the technical nature of your response. I apologize for any perceived insult, and thank you for the educational information. |
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Posted: 1/8/2012 6:03:32 PM EDT
[#37]
It's hard to do internet diagnostics when the problem isn't very specifically layed out.
It sounds like you initially had FTEx (extract), followed by the bolt trying to feed the next round into the chamber (that is a Linear Malfunction, NOT a Double Feed). What this tells me: In the initial setup, enough energy was imparted to the carrier that it fully cycled and fed the next round. Either your extractor hopped over the case rim (insufficient extractor spring tension for the pistol length gas system), or your extractor is ripping rims off your brass (guessing you would have mentioned that if it were the case). First inspect the extractor for damage. Next upgrade the extractor spring/cup to the strongest one you can find, possibly also add an o-ring/d-ring. Repeat testing. If this doesn't fix it, go to a heavier buffer. Note that changing buffer weight could change the amount of energy required to fully cycle the carrier, resulting in Bolt over Base malfunctions. In your last post you suggest you are indeed having BoB malfunctions... Note that this is usually caused by weak magazine springs. While in your case we have reason to think it may be due to the mass/energy ratio of your pistol being insufficient. I suggest you repeat the test with PMags or fresh USGI mags. If BoB malfunction continues, experiment with different buffer weights. Does this pistol have an adjustable gas block? |
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Posted: 1/8/2012 7:19:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
... I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! .... The last post problem was either from the MGI buffer (not likely) or the new SF 60rd mag (likely). As stated befor, I got the systemm runnung afte the Bravo extractor kit upgrade. It woked fine with everything, except the SF mag. I am running a Spikes heavy 5 oz buffer just because. You are correct in nomenclature and cooreecting my ,islabelong it a 'double feed'. |
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