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 FiftyCalAl
NRA BENEFACTOR and RECRUITER; TEAM LARUE
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Joined: Feb 2002  TN, USA
 
 Posts: 4796 Feedback: 100% (73) |
Posted: 12/19/2011 5:39:17 PM
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT Thanks for all the help or arrows pointing somewhere. FCA |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 5:44:28 PM
Mine would do the same.
I upgraded the extractor and stepped to an H2 buffer at the same time, and problem went away. I would try an O-ring around the extractor spring (increases tension) and try again...or do it right and buy the correct upgraded parts (black insert). |
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FiftyCalAl
NRA BENEFACTOR and RECRUITER; TEAM LARUE
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Joined: Feb 2002 TN, USA
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Posted: 12/19/2011 7:15:39 PM
[Last Edit: 12/20/2011 1:00:08 AM by FiftyCalAl]
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!
edited to add, I tested it outside tonight . I am still seeing spots. Looked like a Saturn rocket was launching. Not to mention the noise! 7.5 incher makes big boom! |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 7:15:40 PM
Originally Posted By bscman:
Mine would do the same. I upgraded the extractor and stepped to an H2 buffer at the same time, and problem went away. I would try an O-ring around the extractor spring (increases tension) and try again...or do it right and buy the correct upgraded parts (black insert). Same for me. I got FTE about every 3-4 shots. I pulled it apart, felt the extractor tension and it was really weak. Upgraded it and it hasn't had an FTE since. |
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Posted: 12/19/2011 9:23:45 PM
Is the H2 the best for a 7.5 inch upper or should I go H3? I am planning a pistol build.
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Posted: 12/19/2011 11:05:33 PM
[Last Edit: 12/19/2011 11:06:23 PM by greyguy]
It sounds like the bolt is trying to extract the cartridge while it is still expanded from firing (system is over-gassed). A heavier buffer and or an extra power buffer spring will slow this process down. I would try the H3 and then maybe an extra power spring if that doesn't help things.
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shadowcop
Independent Field Tester /R & D
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:46:27 AM
I run an M16 carrier, H2 buffer, standard carbine spring, and a BCM extractor spring up grade.
Dave N |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 5:22:04 PM
Originally Posted By FiftyCalAl:
that bolt and carrier function fine in other rifles. it's only in this new pistol build that the difficulty occurs. I changed out to a Bravo Company extractor spring kit and it worked just fine after that. Huh! thanks!! As mentioned, it worked fine in other rifles because the gas pressure is lower in a longer gas system. Your pistol, with short gas system, is causing the brass to start being ejected while the pressure is high (higher than if used in a rifle)... The stronger extractor spring has more "grab" on the brass to help pull it out while under pressure. As mentioned, a heavier buffer is a good idea as well. Enjoy! |
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shadowcop
Independent Field Tester /R & D
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Posted: 12/20/2011 6:29:24 PM
[Last Edit: 12/23/2011 10:09:45 AM by shadowcop]
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the lock time, giving the brass a chance to shrink.
Dave N |
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:08:31 PM
Originally Posted By littlered75:
H2
Is the H2 the best for a 7.5 inch upper or should I go H3? I am planning a pistol build. |
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35mm_Shooter
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:34:37 PM
JSE upper?
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BrowardMason
Awake
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Joined: Jul 2011 FL, USA
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Posted: 12/20/2011 11:47:12 PM
Tungsten buffer (spikes) and BCM upgrade kit. Buy several of the kits because shipping is ridiculous.
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FiftyCalAl
NRA BENEFACTOR and RECRUITER; TEAM LARUE
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Posted: 12/21/2011 1:31:31 AM
Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter:
JSE upper? nope |
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Black-Lions
Gator
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Posted: 12/21/2011 11:47:18 AM
I had this trouble and all new parts and over looked the one basic thing !! Make sure the gun is oiled very well when its cherry !!! Work it by hand for about an hour befor you go to the range to start the pre break in. new bolts love to drag and slow things down making it look like other shit is wrong.
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iNeXile556
Deo vindice
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Posted: 12/21/2011 8:56:24 PM
Originally Posted By shadowcop: The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. |
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35mm_Shooter
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Posted: 12/21/2011 9:21:10 PM
[Last Edit: 12/21/2011 9:21:27 PM by 35mm_Shooter]
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. |
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iNeXile556
Deo vindice
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Posted: 12/21/2011 10:02:48 PM
[Last Edit: 12/21/2011 10:14:31 PM by iNeXile556]
Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter: Dwell time is the time that your gas operated weapon maintains pressure
to continue the cycling of the weapon. It primarily exists from the
time the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel to the time the bullet
exits the muzzle.Originally Posted By iNeXile556: Originally Posted By shadowcop: The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. If the mass and/or spring power is too great to move with the gas, the pressure will still drop to zero when the bullet leaves the barrel. It will not cycle, or it may short cycle, but it will NOT "blow up". By the way, the AR is not a blow back system. A blow back system obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge. The AR is a direct impingement system which directs gas from a fired cartridge directly to the bolt carrier or slide assembly to cycle the action. |
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35mm_Shooter
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Posted: 12/21/2011 10:28:59 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter:
Dwell time is the time that your gas operated weapon maintains pressure to continue the cycling of the weapon. It primarily exists from the time the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel to the time the bullet exits the muzzle.
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. If the mass and/or spring power is too great to move with the gas, the pressure will still drop to zero when the bullet leaves the barrel. It will not cycle, or it may short cycle, but it will NOT "blow up". By the way, the AR is not a blow back system. A blow back system obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge. The AR is a direct impingement system which directs gas from a fired cartridge directly to the bolt carrier or slide assembly to cycle the action. My bad, you are correct. What's important though is lock time, and mass has a big effect. |
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iNeXile556
Deo vindice
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Posted: 12/21/2011 10:57:11 PM
[Last Edit: 12/21/2011 11:00:39 PM by iNeXile556]
Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter: Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer.Originally Posted By iNeXile556: Originally Posted By 35mm_Shooter: Dwell time is the time that your gas operated weapon maintains pressure to continue the cycling of the weapon. It primarily exists from the time the bullet passes the gas port in the barrel to the time the bullet exits the muzzle.Originally Posted By iNeXile556: Originally Posted By shadowcop: The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Wrong. The more mass, the more inertia. The more inertia, the longer the dwell time. Otherwise blowback guns would all blow up. With the AR design, the effect of mass is even more pronounced because that bolt carrier and buffer has to travel more distance, before the bolt even unlocks. If the mass and/or spring power is too great to move with the gas, the pressure will still drop to zero when the bullet leaves the barrel. It will not cycle, or it may short cycle, but it will NOT "blow up". By the way, the AR is not a blow back system. A blow back system obtains energy from the motion of the cartridge case as it is pushed to the rear by expanding gases created by the ignition of the propellant charge. The AR is a direct impingement system which directs gas from a fired cartridge directly to the bolt carrier or slide assembly to cycle the action. My bad, you are correct. What's important though is lock time, and mass has a big effect. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. |
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Posted: 12/22/2011 8:29:17 PM
It won't run because it doesn't have any legs.
Sorry I could not resist |
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shadowcop
Independent Field Tester /R & D
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Posted: 12/22/2011 9:02:30 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By shadowcop:
The heavier buffer and carrier will slow the action and increase the dwell time, giving the brass a chance to shrink. Dave N This is wrong. A heavier carrier and buffer will affect the timing allowing more time for the brass to normalize but it does nothing for dwell time. Dwell time is only effected by the distance of the gas port to the muzzle. Thank you for correcting that. |
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eracer
Building up my immunity to Iocane...
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Posted: 12/23/2011 8:12:17 AM
[Last Edit: 12/23/2011 8:12:41 AM by eracer]
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?"  |
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iNeXile556
Deo vindice
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Posted: 12/23/2011 9:53:35 AM
[Last Edit: 12/23/2011 10:17:32 AM by iNeXile556]
Originally Posted By eracer: Originally Posted By iNeXile556:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer. But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?" This is a TECH forum. If we all start using any terminology we want instead of the correct ones we loose the ability to communicate proper information and end up simply spreading mis-information and rumors. You can go to GD and get, that so why don't you just skip back over there where you'll be happier with your unhelpful, BS posts. By the way Smoking Loon is from the Sebastiani Winery in Napa Valley, California, it's not French, and as wine goes pretty much sucks. So drink all you like just refrain from posting here while doing so. Have a Merry Christmas.  |
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shadowcop
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Posted: 12/23/2011 10:11:02 AM
[Last Edit: 12/23/2011 10:13:32 AM by shadowcop]
I agree. I got in a hurry and posted the wrong information/terminology. It needed to be corrected.
I was on another forum and am getting grief for disagreeing about a DPMS being a worthy "combat" weapon. "Used by contractors" 
Dave N |
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iNeXile556
Deo vindice
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Posted: 12/23/2011 10:19:16 AM
Have a Merry Christmas Dave N.
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35mm_Shooter
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Posted: 12/23/2011 1:50:52 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By eracer:
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:Well, actually lock time is the time interval between sear release and the firing pin striking the primer.
But I know what your getting at, the time it takes the gas to overcome the inertia of the BCG and start to move, allowing the bolt to remain locked just a wee bit longer. Along with that is a longer time for the bolt to return and lock into battery. In other words, cycle time. You have a lot of fun at parties, don't you? "Actually, phylloxera is an insect related to the aphid. If not for the introduction of American rootstock, which when grafted to old-world vines increased resistance to this pest, the French wine industry would have completely collapsed." "Ummm, can I just get another glass of that Smoking Loon over there?"
This is a TECH forum. If we all start using any terminology we want instead of the correct ones we loose the ability to communicate proper information and end up simply spreading mis-information and rumors. You can go to GD and get, that so why don't you just skip back over there where you'll be happier with your unhelpful, BS posts. By the way Smoking Loon is from the Sebastiani Winery in Napa Valley, California, it's not French, and as wine goes pretty much sucks. So drink all you like just refrain from posting here while doing so. Have a Merry Christmas.
Well I agree, I hate it when people misspeak and if that is me, I'm glad to have someone correct me. Not thinking clearly I guess. There are enough misconceptions in the gun world, we don't need to add more. |
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