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utah81
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Posted: 7/14/2011 1:32:48 AM EST
Is there any advantage to using a " pig-tail" gas tube in a pistol length gas system ?
Jparks29
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Posted: 7/14/2011 1:44:11 AM EST
They lighten your wallet.

Medicfrost
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Posted: 7/14/2011 3:07:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jparks29:
They lighten your wallet.



+1. I'd rather use the money to buy cool stuff for my AR, they're too outrageously priced.
shadowcop
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Posted: 7/14/2011 5:10:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2011 5:12:07 AM EST by shadowcop]
Great marketing!
I've seen one guy that swore it helped his cycling. But my 7.5" AR's run fine with a pistol tube. It's all in how you set it up.
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Maryland_Shooter
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Posted: 7/14/2011 5:21:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jparks29:
They lighten your wallet.



Amen - it's a freaking piece of brake line for Christ sake
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tankdriver
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Posted: 7/14/2011 7:10:51 AM EST
I like the people you have never tried it on a build saying they know it does not work, or dosen't make any difference. Here is a thread about the build I did and discussion about the pig tail.

Pigtail build

Short version.......

I built 3 pistols. 1 with pigtail, 2 without. You could feel a difference in the recoil of the different pistols, it is more of a shove, rather than a snap. I am not sure what that means, if that is good, bad, or indifferent, but there is a difference in the felt recoil.. I'm not sure at this point if I build another one if I would use it or not. I'm not sure if it is worth the extra money or not. It has been on since August of last year and it has not broken, like I was told it would. It just keeps running along....


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shadowcop
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Posted: 7/14/2011 8:09:31 AM EST
I don't know that I've ever heard about them breaking. Just real questionable if they actually aid in function as advertised.
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utah81
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Posted: 7/14/2011 8:11:38 AM EST
Thanks for all the input. I like the GSE buffer but have a spare car. unit I'm using. Tankdriver, your rig looks like the way I am going to set mine up. Thanks, Jim.
pukindog
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Posted: 7/14/2011 9:34:37 AM EST
I had a pig-tail gas tube on my pistol-length gas system and it would not cycle. It was as if there was not enough pressure move the BCG back far enough.


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morrisammo_1
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Posted: 7/14/2011 9:40:29 AM EST
I had one on one of my AR's, it worked fine. noticing the difference, it makes, kind of hard,
I wanted it so that the chamber stayed closed just a little bit longer, giving the brass a chance to contract.

on my newer AR builds,,, I use a regular gas tube,, I have other things to spend money on,,

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slamfyre
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Posted: 9/8/2011 8:17:05 AM EST
I have the pigtail on one of my pistols, and no pigtail on the others.

Mine is an older version, with several loops. It was made by/for Oly arms in the '90s.

I love it, and it works in reducing felt recoil (slightly).

I don't seem to have ejection issues with any of the pistols, though. Guess I'm just lucky.


-sf
duckdog
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Posted: 9/15/2011 6:28:44 PM EST
I had a Rocky Mtn Arms pistol that would bolt bounce, and other issues. I sent it to the late Kurt Valhalla (sp) from Kurt's Kustom Firearms. He fixed mine by replacing the pistol buffer spring. In talking with him, he had suggested a pigtail and said that the pistols and shorter carbines would benefit from the longer gas tube.

RIP Kurt.
BossMaverick
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Posted: 9/15/2011 11:44:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/15/2011 11:53:08 PM EST by BossMaverick]
Maybe I'm over thinking it, but please explain to me how the pigtail works so magically.

I think about it like a 25 foot air hose with a sudden 18,000+ PSI pressure spike at the supply end. The final PSI output pressure with a 35 foot hose isn't going to be noticeably different compared to a 25 foot hose. ETA: Please don't tell me that the extra 10 feet is going to delay 18,000+ PSI of air from getting to the end.

Gas port location and size is the biggest factor to gas tube pressures, not the length of the tube.
tankdriver
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Posted: 9/16/2011 4:01:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2011 4:04:56 AM EST by tankdriver]
Originally Posted By BossMaverick:
Maybe I'm over thinking it, but please explain to me how the pigtail works so magically.

I think about it like a 25 foot air hose with a sudden 18,000+ PSI pressure spike at the supply end. The final PSI output pressure with a 35 foot hose isn't going to be noticeably different compared to a 25 foot hose. ETA: Please don't tell me that the extra 10 feet is going to delay 18,000+ PSI of air from getting to the end.

Gas port location and size is the biggest factor to gas tube pressures, not the length of the tube.


Click on this link, it goes over everything from earlier post.

Pigtail build


Short of it, basally the longer tube slow down the initial plus as it has a longer distance to travel. Now this is not seconds, but mili-seconds. Which in a firearm can make a difference. I was a Boiler and A/C Operating Engineer for about 10 years, and in the old days you adjusted a A/C expansion coil(the cold one), not with an thermal, or pressure value, but with an expansion tube, or tubes. You adjusted the expansion of the gases by how long, or short you cut the tubes .

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BossMaverick
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Posted: 9/16/2011 8:07:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2011 8:15:32 AM EST by BossMaverick]
Originally Posted By tankdriver:
Originally Posted By BossMaverick:
Maybe I'm over thinking it, but please explain to me how the pigtail works so magically.

I think about it like a 25 foot air hose with a sudden 18,000+ PSI pressure spike at the supply end. The final PSI output pressure with a 35 foot hose isn't going to be noticeably different compared to a 25 foot hose. ETA: Please don't tell me that the extra 10 feet is going to delay 18,000+ PSI of air from getting to the end.

Gas port location and size is the biggest factor to gas tube pressures, not the length of the tube.


Click on this link, it goes over everything from earlier post.

Pigtail build


Short of it, basally the longer tube slow down the initial plus as it has a longer distance to travel. Now this is not seconds, but mili-seconds. Which in a firearm can make a difference. I was a Boiler and A/C Operating Engineer for about 10 years, and in the old days you adjusted a A/C expansion coil(the cold one), not with an thermal, or pressure value, but with an expansion tube, or tubes. You adjusted the expansion of the gases by how long, or short you cut the tubes .


I had read that thread and there is this in it (which is how I feel):
From a fluid dynamic standpoint, the pigtail does nothing. The speed of the gas in relation to the speed of the projectile is a substantial multiple. For all practical purposes, once the bullet is past the gas hole, the pressure realized at the cylinder is instantaneous. We are talking gas expansion at probably well over 10,000fps (assuming no resistance). What matters is at what point the bullet passes the gas hole. Those few little inches of gas tube are irrelevant. It's pure snake oil.


I can see tube length making a difference in A/C systems. A longer tube would have more surface area which would allow the room temperature to have more of an effect on the temperature of the A/C gasses (like a radiator of sorts). Also, from my understanding of A/C systems, the cold side of the system is the low pressure side. Since we are talking thousands less PSI then a firearm, I can see a longer tube possibly having an effect of the system. I don't see a longer tube having an effect at firearm pressures.

I'm just not sold on the pigtail gas tube. Too bad there can't be high speed video like this to show if it actually makes a difference or not. The only way I could see the pigtail gas tube working is if it was more restrictive then a standard gas tube. If that was the case, a smaller gas port size would work just as well but possibly at the expense of reliability. IMHO, if timing is an issue, changing buffer weights would have more of an effect than a pigtail gas tube.

ETA: As far as recoil feeling compared to the other two pistol builds you shot, you mentioned that you had to drill your gas port hole one size larger to get the gun to work in the original thread. It could be that you still have a smaller gas port size then the other two AR pistols since we don't know the barrel brands.
iNeXile556
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Posted: 9/17/2011 4:33:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2011 4:46:26 AM EST by iNeXile556]

Originally Posted By tankdriver:


Short of it, basally the longer tube slow down the initial plus as it has a longer distance to travel. Now this is not seconds, but mili microseconds Which in a firearm can make a difference. I was a Boiler and A/C Operating Engineer for about 10 years, and in the old days you adjusted a A/C expansion coil(the cold one), not with an thermal, or pressure value, but with an expansion tube, or tubes. You adjusted the expansion of the gases by how long, or short you cut the tubes .

Fixed it for you. The entire dwell time of a 7.5" pistol is only .108 milliseconds, the complete cycle is 2.

Your analogy to a AC system is also wrong. A gas tube is not a closed system. A gas tube is just like a leak in you AC system, a .1" hole in your high (or low) pressure refrigerant line isn't going to leak any slower, or with less pressure, just because you have a 1/8" open ended tube over it.


utah81, save yourself the extra $90 and use a time tested, regular, $10 gas tube.
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tankdriver
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Posted: 9/17/2011 11:32:39 AM EST
Well, there are 3 people on this thread who uses them and likes them, sorry 4 counting me. All say they can feel the recoil is less. I saw 1 person who said it would not allow enough gas through to work the action, so I guess that shows it lessens the gas getting through.

As I said, I do not know if it makes enough differance that if I built another one, I'd use it. BUT mine has worked fine for a year and a half, one person on the earlier thread said "a buddy's broke". I'm giving 1st hand info, not a buddy's. Three other people on this thread are offering 1st hand info. So I see no problems if some one wants to run it.

I like my Spikes lower, and upper, not everybody does. I like my GSE recoil system, I have built 3 with the GSE recoil system on them. All 3 have worked great for over 1 year. A lot of people here do not like them even though they have never tried them, just somebody said something bad about them.

To each his on.

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iNeXile556
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Posted: 9/17/2011 4:20:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By tankdriver:
Well, there are 3 people on this thread who uses them and likes them, sorry 4 counting me. All say they can feel the recoil is less. I saw 1 person who said it would not allow enough gas through to work the action, so I guess that shows it lessens the gas getting through.

As I said, I do not know if it makes enough differance that if I built another one, I'd use it. BUT mine has worked fine for a year and a half, one person on the earlier thread said "a buddy's broke". I'm giving 1st hand info, not a buddy's. Three other people on this thread are offering 1st hand info. So I see no problems if some one wants to run it.

I like my Spikes lower, and upper, not everybody does. I like my GSE recoil system, I have built 3 with the GSE recoil system on them. All 3 have worked great for over 1 year. A lot of people here do not like them even though they have never tried them, just somebody said something bad about them.

To each his on.
The new GSE setup uses a standard carbine spring with a modified bolt carrier. I have never tried this setup but I don't see where it would be a problem. I just don't like the modified carrier or the fact that there is no buffer retainer, just makes it harder to open up.

The old original GSE was troublesome and not anything near reliable. I built one back when the first came out long ago and swore them off because of all the troubles.

As far as the pigtails go, they just don't make any difference other then what you have believe you "feel". In any case you can't honestly tell me the difference can justify the $100 price tag vs a $10 price tag.

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tankdriver
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Posted: 9/17/2011 6:15:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2011 6:27:48 PM EST by tankdriver]
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:

Originally Posted By tankdriver:
Well, there are 3 people on this thread who uses them and likes them, sorry 4 counting me. All say they can feel the recoil is less. I saw 1 person who said it would not allow enough gas through to work the action, so I guess that shows it lessens the gas getting through.

As I said, I do not know if it makes enough difference that if I built another one, I'd use it. BUT mine has worked fine for a year and a half, one person on the earlier thread said "a buddy's broke". I'm giving 1st hand info, not a buddy's. Three other people on this thread are offering 1st hand info. So I see no problems if some one wants to run it.

I like my Spikes lower, and upper, not everybody does. I like my GSE recoil system, I have built 3 with the GSE recoil system on them. All 3 have worked great for over 1 year. A lot of people here do not like them even though they have never tried them, just somebody said something bad about them.

To each his on.
The new GSE setup uses a standard carbine spring with a modified bolt carrier. I have never tried this setup but I don't see where it would be a problem. I just don't like the modified carrier or the fact that there is no buffer retainer, just makes it harder to open up.

The old original GSE was troublesome and not anything near reliable. I built one back when the first came out long ago and swore them off because of all the troubles.

As far as the pigtails go, they just don't make any difference other then what you have believe you "feel". In any case you can't honestly tell me the difference can justify the $100 price tag vs a $10 price tag.



It also does not matter what you think. The 3 I built was the early GSE ones, and never had any problems out of any of them.

The pigtail is not just me. 3 others here had said the same thing, but I guess you are blessed with more knowledge and anyone else here.

I'm not trying to change your mind, Heaven forbid. I'm just stating my experiences with the pigtail, which you have never had any of.

I'm through with it. Have a nice day.....

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iNeXile556
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Posted: 9/17/2011 9:38:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2011 10:18:52 PM EST by iNeXile556]
1. You might want to recount, you and one newb in this thread like it. Everyone else said it was a waste of money or they didn't see a difference.

2. I do have personal experience with the pigtail and it is pure snake oil. If you want to drop pressure diameter (expansion, try to remember from that AC experience you brought up), not length is how it's achieved. Length will only effect timing which is much better achieved in better, and cheaper, ways.

3. If your going to be an ass and resort to personal attacks instead of trying to have a civilized discussion then I will counter that no, I'm not blessed with more knowledge then everyone else here, you are merely handicapped by considerably less then everyone else here.

Welcome to my ignore list.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
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