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 ultramagbrion
Guerrilla Machinist
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Joined: Jul 2004  ME, USA
 Posts: 39474 Feedback: 100% (67) Link To This Post |
Posted: 4/9/2012 11:40:15 AM
[Last Edit: 4/9/2012 11:42:15 AM by ultramagbrion]
Just printed out two sets of the key letters outlining the registering and assembly of an AR/AK pistol , and will keep a set with each of my 'pistols' in their cases .
I carry these often in the cab of my trucks , cocked-locked and ready to rock . Maine doesnt allow you to have a rifle's loaded-mag inserted , nor a loaded rifle chamber , while inside/on a motor vehicle . . . . but a loaded pistol is good to go with a CCW. Thanks again ARFcom  |
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iNeXile556
Deo vindice
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Joined: Jan 2009 TN, USA
Posts: 2809 Feedback: 100% (21) Link To This Post |
Posted: 9/9/2012 6:08:55 AM
To Clear up any questions concerning OAL measurement(especially in regards to muzzle devices) 3rd page:
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Posted: 12/7/2012 8:42:23 PM
SB15 ATF Approval letters plus photos taken at the ATF FTB
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shrikefan
Member
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Joined: Jan 2007 USA
Posts: 11199 Feedback: 100% (119) Link To This Post |
Posted: 12/8/2012 7:46:43 AM
[Last Edit: 12/8/2012 7:50:51 AM by shrikefan]
SWEEEETT!!
ETA - Do you make one for rifle length buffer tubes? I have really long arms. 
I like the airsoft angle too. Keeps you out of hot water just in case they rule it an NFA firearm. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:52:20 AM
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shrikefan
Member
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Joined: Jan 2007 USA
Posts: 11331 Feedback: 100% (119) Link To This Post |
Posted: 12/22/2012 10:53:54 PM
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Posted: 1/17/2013 8:20:49 PM
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB |
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shrikefan
Member
Team Member
Joined: Jan 2007 USA
Posts: 11468 Feedback: 100% (119) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/17/2013 10:29:42 PM
Originally Posted By Mak:
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB That may be a Mi. law but it is NOT a federal law. |
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mnvwguy02
Laboring to love my neighbor as myself
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Joined: May 2007 MN, USA
 
Posts: 10342 Feedback: 100% (72) Link To This Post |
Posted: 1/17/2013 11:48:31 PM
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
And be sure to notice the contradiction between the letter to me and the very first letter that was posted but does not have a date on it. In the letter Nixon wrote to me in 2004, right after the AWB ended, he specifically and clearly said that a lower could not have had either a rifle upper OR butt stock attached, lest it be considered a rifle lower. Then in the first letter posted they reversed that saying that if it has had a butt stock attached but no upper, it was still not a rifle. Now, right or wrong, this is my thinking. They contradict themselves all the time. So, if you play the logic game, since there is no maximum or minimum length for a pistol barrel, it seems the upper would have little influence on what the build was. But a butt stock, if it has had a butt stock attached, and a butt stock cannot be used on a pistol, one can make an strong argument that if it has had a butt stock attached then it is a rifle lower, as was said in the letter written to me in November 2004. Since the new letter is more than likely more recent than mine, then one can assume they have changed their minds and you CAN build a pistol out of a lower that has had a butt stock but no upper attached. However, since the only person these letters have any legal weight for is the person the letter is actually addressed to and the person actually in possession of that letter, I think I will stick with what mine says, just in case they change their minds again. Thinking out loud here...could the change of adding the "Frame or Receiver only" check box to Form 4473 a few years ago, be the rationale for the letest determination? If receiver was transfered as a receiver, per ATF guidance, rather than pistol or long gun then as long as it was never a complete rifle their rationale holds, regardless of the presence of a buttstock along the way. Of course this is the agency that shall never be trusted, too... |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 10:45:03 AM
[Last Edit: 2/1/2013 10:53:26 AM by AJ-Peacock]
Originally Posted By Mak:
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB I would LOVE to see a BATF letter regarding this item. I've searched and not found any letters that differentiate a stripped AR-15 lower based on it's markings. I do agree that in MICHIGAN, you have to get the sales pistol form from the FFL at time of purchase, then turn 2 copies into the state. So, my understanding is: 1) FFL transfers stripped lower as "other" on form 4473 2) FFL prints pistol sales form for use to register lower as a pistol with state of Michigan "If you intend to build the lower into a pistol." Anyone??? Thanks, AJ |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 6:02:22 PM
Originally Posted By AJ-Peacock:
Originally Posted By Mak:
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB I would LOVE to see a BATF letter regarding this item. I've searched and not found any letters that differentiate a stripped AR-15 lower based on it's markings. I do agree that in MICHIGAN, you have to get the sales pistol form from the FFL at time of purchase, then turn 2 copies into the state. So, my understanding is: 1) FFL transfers stripped lower as "other" on form 4473 2) FFL prints pistol sales form for use to register lower as a pistol with state of Michigan "If you intend to build the lower into a pistol." Anyone??? Thanks, AJ Someone mentioned in MI you build the receiver into a pistol then register it as such. |
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Posted: 2/1/2013 7:36:08 PM
Originally Posted By Mak:
Originally Posted By AJ-Peacock:
Originally Posted By Mak:
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB I would LOVE to see a BATF letter regarding this item. I've searched and not found any letters that differentiate a stripped AR-15 lower based on it's markings. I do agree that in MICHIGAN, you have to get the sales pistol form from the FFL at time of purchase, then turn 2 copies into the state. So, my understanding is: 1) FFL transfers stripped lower as "other" on form 4473 2) FFL prints pistol sales form for use to register lower as a pistol with state of Michigan "If you intend to build the lower into a pistol." Anyone??? Thanks, AJ Someone mentioned in MI you build the receiver into a pistol then register it as such. Might be tough, as you only have 10 days from the time you purchase until you have to turn in the pistol sales form. Also, you get the pistol sales form from the ffl at the time you acquire the lower. I'd like to know where I can order everything to complete a pistol in 10 days in our current environment ;-) AJ |
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Army_of_One
Armchair Commando
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Joined: Feb 2010 FL, USA
Posts: 2473 Feedback: 100% (21) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/1/2013 8:27:16 PM
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Posted: 3/2/2013 12:37:08 AM
Army_of_One, how long did it take for the FTB to answer your letter?
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Army_of_One
Armchair Commando
Team Member
Joined: Feb 2010 FL, USA
Posts: 2474 Feedback: 100% (21) Link To This Post |
Posted: 3/2/2013 12:46:18 AM
Originally Posted By Hellstorm:
Army_of_One, how long did it take for the FTB to answer your letter? At most a month. I was surprised by how fast it was answered. |
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Posted: 3/2/2013 1:14:40 AM
I sent mine on Jan-14th and still have not received a response. Granted, I think my letter required a bit more work for them to answer.
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TBoneDetroit
Ramblin' on my mind ;)
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Joined: Oct 2005 MI, USA
Posts: 846 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/6/2013 11:15:06 AM
[Last Edit: 5/6/2013 11:42:06 AM by TBoneDetroit]
Originally Posted By shrikefan:
Originally Posted By Mak:
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB That may be a Mi. law but it is NOT a federal law. I'm unaware of any such Michigan law (if anyone is, please stop me from making a mistake, as I'm about to take delivery of a virgin receiver and intend a pistol build with it). AFAIK, the only requirements WRT the lower are the Federal requirements that it has not been assembled as a rifle in the past (mine is factory fresh, going from them to my FFL- I intend to suggest he fill the 4473 as "other" or "receiver", and will not accept the form if marked "rifle"). Sounds to me like the above is a manufacturer and FFL holder both being overly cautious (can't blame them really) to avoid any potential accusation of impropriety. WRT the ATF people telling them that's what is required, they didn't send off to FTB it seems, but just issued their own "opinion" as an "official" one (which it is not, field agents, presuming that is who they are dealing with, are charged with enforcing the law, not interpreting it). |
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TBoneDetroit
Ramblin' on my mind ;)
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2005 MI, USA
Posts: 847 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/6/2013 11:40:19 AM
[Last Edit: 5/6/2013 11:46:00 AM by TBoneDetroit]
Originally Posted By AJ-Peacock:
Originally Posted By Mak:
Originally Posted By AJ-Peacock:
Originally Posted By Mak:
I wanted to buy a stripped never built receiver for a pistol build. Dealer wouldn't sell me one, said it was illegal unless engraved from manufacturer as a pistol receiver. Contacted the manufacturer who is local. He said the same thing. No over priced pistol receiver for me
Hughes Precision receiver Robert Hughes (rhughes@hughesprecision.com) 6:01 PM To: Doug LARRY IS CORRECT, A PISTOL CONFIGED AR IS CONCIDERED A SBR IF IT IS NOT MARKED BY THE MFG "PISTOL" SOMEWHERE ON THE RECEIVER AND REGESTERED AS A PISTOL AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. NOT SAYING GUYS DON'T DO IT BUT IT IS NOT CORRECT NOR DO WE RECOMMEND IT. WE HAVE ONLY MFGeD 11 PISTOL RECEIVERS TOTAL. OUR BATFE PEOPLE TOLD US THATS HOW WE HAVE TO DO IT. THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THOSE ON GUNBROKER RIGHT NOW, WE DONOT HAVE ANY OURSELVES. HOPE THIS HELPS - BOB I would LOVE to see a BATF letter regarding this item. I've searched and not found any letters that differentiate a stripped AR-15 lower based on it's markings. I do agree that in MICHIGAN, you have to get the sales pistol form from the FFL at time of purchase, then turn 2 copies into the state. So, my understanding is: 1) FFL transfers stripped lower as "other" on form 4473 2) FFL prints pistol sales form for use to register lower as a pistol with state of Michigan "If you intend to build the lower into a pistol." Anyone??? Thanks, AJ Someone mentioned in MI you build the receiver into a pistol then register it as such. Might be tough, as you only have 10 days from the time you purchase until you have to turn in the pistol sales form. Also, you get the pistol sales form from the ffl at the time you acquire the lower. I'd like to know where I can order everything to complete a pistol in 10 days in our current environment ;-) AJ You're correct about the 10 day thing. And I've been careful not to obtain a pistol barrel before I have the lower (coming this week). But a few questions, food for thought... When does it become a pistol? And would it be illegal to register the receiver as soon as it is obtained as a pistol regardless of completion status? WRT the Sales Record form, it does not have to come from the FFL (What would you do in a private purchase?). And if you don't have a MI CPL, you still need to obtain a license to purchase from your local Law Enforcement Agency. And the Sales Record that you mail in (remember, there is no longer an inspection required) can be obtained from sources other than your FFL (a 10 second Google found this for me). I will discuss with my FFL about the registration (whether to send it right away, as I'd like to do, to preclude any presumption the receiver was built into a rifle first- though I already have the pistol buffer, and can use that and it's paperwork as well as posts here as evidence of my intentions should it come to that). Or to register it when I am finished building (again, there is no more inspection required, it is merely a paper trail). I see no harm* in simply registering the receiver right after I obtain it. Since I am the builder, I will then be obtaining it from myself. *Yes, I know registration sucks, and I am aware of the potential harm in such a system, but it is State law here, and I was only referring to no harm from a legal standpoint. |
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TBoneDetroit
Ramblin' on my mind ;)
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2005 MI, USA
Posts: 877 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/13/2013 7:04:32 AM
Picked up my lower a few days ago. Discussed registration with my FFL, he cautioned me against registering it before it's completed (or at least substantially completed). while I need to list the caliber (a no brainer), also required are barrel length (wasn't 100% sure until I found and ordered a barrel) an the length overall. For the loa, I'll probably get by with an assembled lower and a mock up of the assembled upper (temp/test fit barrel to upper and mate to lower, take measurement).
If the barrel gets here soon enough (I have doubts the way parts have been shipping), I still may make the 10 days. But I'm not concerned, because as the FFL pointed out, it's not a pistol yet. |
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GoGop
Chicken man
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Joined: Mar 2004 MO, USA
Posts: 22429 Feedback: 100% (19) Link To This Post |
Posted: 5/13/2013 9:04:52 AM
Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit: Picked up my lower a few days ago. Discussed registration with my FFL, he cautioned me against registering it before it's completed (or at least substantially completed). while I need to list the caliber (a no brainer), also required are barrel length (wasn't 100% sure until I found and ordered a barrel) an the length overall. For the loa, I'll probably get by with an assembled lower and a mock up of the assembled upper (temp/test fit barrel to upper and mate to lower, take measurement). If the barrel gets here soon enough (I have doubts the way parts have been shipping), I still may make the 10 days. But I'm not concerned, because as the FFL pointed out, it's not a pistol yet. Your state has pistol registration? All we have to do here is list the receiver as Multi or something like that on the 4473, and it can be built into a rifle or a pistol. There's no registration. |
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Posted: 5/15/2013 8:30:50 AM
So it's been 119 days and the ATF still hasn't replied to my submission. After leaving 3 messages, they finally called back on day 91. The guy in charge of my submission told me that he hadn't had a chance to look at it yet. Needless to say, I was pretty disappointed. Now a month later, and still no response to my submission. I left another message today. Hope the news is better this time.
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TBoneDetroit
Ramblin' on my mind ;)
Team Member
Joined: Oct 2005 MI, USA
Posts: 890 Feedback: 100% (1) Link To This Post |
Posted: 6/2/2013 4:33:29 PM
Originally Posted By GoGop:
Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
Picked up my lower a few days ago. Discussed registration with my FFL, he cautioned me against registering it before it's completed (or at least substantially completed). while I need to list the caliber (a no brainer), also required are barrel length (wasn't 100% sure until I found and ordered a barrel) an the length overall. For the loa, I'll probably get by with an assembled lower and a mock up of the assembled upper (temp/test fit barrel to upper and mate to lower, take measurement). If the barrel gets here soon enough (I have doubts the way parts have been shipping), I still may make the 10 days. But I'm not concerned, because as the FFL pointed out, it's not a pistol yet. Your state has pistol registration? All we have to do here is list the receiver as Multi or something like that on the 4473, and it can be built into a rifle or a pistol. There's no registration. Yeah, has nothing to do with it being an AR. It's just a stupid and very old State law that all (modern) pistols be registered. The up side is that we're a "shall issue" state, and if it's registered as a pistol, it can be carried as one. A new law says 26 inches and over is not a pistol in Michigan, but I have a folding AK and an 8 shot pistol gripped riot gun that are both registered as pistols because they are between 26 and 30 inches (an old standard being replaced by this new one). Those will be grandfathered (still can carry them). And my AR Pistol will be under 26 inches with it's 7.5 in. barrel (should be completed next week or the week after, depending on shipment of a few last parts, barrel forward is all that is lacking, rest I completed yesterday). That will be a new motoring companion  |
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