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tbonifie
Martyrdom covers a multitude of sins...
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Posted: 12/24/2009 10:55:44 PM
Probably a stupid question: is there a limit on how long a barrel can be for an AR Pistol?

If I remove the collapsible stock from my 16" carbine and take it out and shoot it, is it suddenly an incorrectly registered pistol (since it was NICS checked as a rifle lower)? If I have a VFG in this config, is it suddenly an AOW?

In other words, what are the "defining" features of an AR pistol?

I recently purchased another 2 AR stripped lowers (simply because they were so cheap I couldn't help myself) and while I was going through the NICS check decided to have them call one out as a pistol. Now trying to figure out exactly what that means. I do want to eventually SBR the thing, but don't have the funds right now...
"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten second hand, and without examination." - Mark Twain.
rjrivero
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Posted: 12/24/2009 10:59:14 PM
[Last Edit: 12/24/2009 11:04:22 PM by rjrivero]
You can NOT remove a butt stock from a rifle and have a pistol. It's illegal and will earn you 10 years in Federal Prison.

To be an AR PIstol, it has to be SOLD as a complete PISTOL, or Pistol LOWER. Or It has to be a stripped lower that has NEVER had a stock put on it before.

I believe your FFL didn't do you any favors by mis-represnting your Stripped lower purchase as a pistol. By defenition, stripped lowers are transfered as "other" on the notorious yellow form. I hope someone will chime in as to what the ramifications are for an FFL who transfers a stripped lower improperly, because honestly, I don't know.

Anyway, any "virgin" stripped lower can be builit into a pistol, but once it has a buttstock on it, it's a rifle. Period.



tbonifie
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:02:30 PM

Originally Posted By rjrivero:
You can NOT remove a butt stock from a rifle and have a pistol. It's illegal and will earn you 10 years in Federal Prison.

To be an AR PIstol, it has to be SOLD as a complete PISTOL, or Pistol LOWER. Or It has to be a stripped lower that has NEVER had a stock put on it before.

Your FFL didn't do you any favors by mis-represnting your Stripped lower purchase as a pistol. By defenition, stripped lowers are transfered as "other" on the notorious yellow form.

I hope someone will chime in as to what the ramifications are for an FFL who transfers a stripped lower improperly, because honestly, I don't know.

He did put "other" on the form for both lowers. But he told me they will ask him verbally and he'd say it was a pistol lower when they asked.

So you are saying that, yes, removing a buttstock from a rifle and shooting it that way suddenly constitutes an illegal pistol? I'm honestly asking...

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten second hand, and without examination." - Mark Twain.
rjrivero
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:05:29 PM
Correct. You CAN NOT remove the buttstock from an existing rifle and have a pistol.
Gamma762
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:13:16 PM
Originally Posted By tbonifie:
So you are saying that, yes, removing a buttstock from a rifle and shooting it that way suddenly constitutes an illegal pistol?

An AR with a 16" barrel and bare carbine buffer tube is still longer than the legal length to constitute a long gun, under the federal definition anyway. The stock would also be "readily attachable"... I wouldn't worry about it.
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tbonifie
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:16:10 PM

Originally Posted By rjrivero:
Correct. You CAN NOT remove the buttstock from an existing rifle and have a pistol.

Sorry to press, but you are saying that, regardless of barrel length, it is illegal to simply remove the buttstock from an AR15 carbine and keep it that way and use it as a pistol (yes, it would be stupid, but I'm probing technicalities).

Anyway, the root of my question was that I'm intending to get an 11 or 12 inch upper for the new lower along with a pistol buffer tube and then someday getting around to turning it to an SBR with all the paperwork, engravings and taxes. I was actually more interested in knowing if there was a pistol barrel length which was not to be exceeded...
"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten second hand, and without examination." - Mark Twain.
Gamma762
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:23:11 PM
[Last Edit: 12/24/2009 11:27:02 PM by Gamma762]
Originally Posted By tbonifie:
I was actually more interested in knowing if there was a pistol barrel length which was not to be exceeded...

No.

In an AR, as you approach a 16" barrel length you'll reach the length necessary for it to be considered a "long gun". I haven't seen anything that would indicate that you could not temporarily use a longer barrel, as long as you do not attach a stock at any time and it was originally made as a pistol. Under the current interpretation, once you attach a stock it becomes a "rifle" and cannot be a Title 1 pistol again.
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MRW
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:26:21 PM
you can take the stock off of a rifle and shoot it all you want.

you cannot legally put an upper with a barrel less than 16 inches on it, no matter if you take the stock off or not.

Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

General education should not be mere training of the hands to work, but training of the mind to properly reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classed.php
Gamma762
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:35:05 PM
Originally Posted By tbonifie:
Probably a stupid question: is there a limit on how long a barrel can be for an AR Pistol?

If I remove the collapsible stock from my 16" carbine and take it out and shoot it, is it suddenly an incorrectly registered pistol (since it was NICS checked as a rifle lower)? If I have a VFG in this config, is it suddenly an AOW?

In other words, what are the "defining" features of an AR pistol?

I recently purchased another 2 AR stripped lowers (simply because they were so cheap I couldn't help myself) and while I was going through the NICS check decided to have them call one out as a pistol. Now trying to figure out exactly what that means. I do want to eventually SBR the thing, but don't have the funds right now...

You have some serious misconceptions here that should probably be addressed.

If you purchased stripped lowers they should have been transferred to you as "other" on the 4473. They are neither pistol nor rifle/long gun. They are not "registered" (unless you have some state issue) as anything. You can build whatever you want with either of them.
This is...a clue. - Pat_Rogers
CO, FL, MI, SC, NH, NV - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
tbonifie
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Posted: 12/24/2009 11:49:42 PM

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Originally Posted By tbonifie:
Probably a stupid question: is there a limit on how long a barrel can be for an AR Pistol?

If I remove the collapsible stock from my 16" carbine and take it out and shoot it, is it suddenly an incorrectly registered pistol (since it was NICS checked as a rifle lower)? If I have a VFG in this config, is it suddenly an AOW?

In other words, what are the "defining" features of an AR pistol?

I recently purchased another 2 AR stripped lowers (simply because they were so cheap I couldn't help myself) and while I was going through the NICS check decided to have them call one out as a pistol. Now trying to figure out exactly what that means. I do want to eventually SBR the thing, but don't have the funds right now...

You have some serious misconceptions here that should probably be addressed.

If you purchased stripped lowers they should have been transferred to you as "other" on the 4473. They are neither pistol nor rifle/long gun. They are not "registered" (unless you have some state issue) as anything. You can build whatever you want with either of them.

I'm not reporting my misconceptions (though I'm sure I have some, LOL!), just what they did. The 4473 had "other" written on it as appropriate, but the gentleman who ran the NICS check said he would have to verbally tell them which one was a pistol lower instead of rifle. Not knowing one way or the other, I told him to go ahead and do that.

Either way, looks like I'm ok to go ahead and buy a 12" upper for it along with a pistol tube. Again, not having done this before, and having no real clue, I wanted to make sure I didn't go buy a 12" upper and find out it's too long to be considered a pistol and end up on the wrong side of the law.

Thanks all.

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten second hand, and without examination." - Mark Twain.
Big-Bore
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Posted: 12/25/2009 7:57:25 PM
[Last Edit: 12/25/2009 10:33:47 PM by Big-Bore]
What RJ said is completely wrong in relation to your specific question, but right in a certain since. If you take your stock off of your 16 inch barreled AR rifle you are still over the 26 inches OAL and you are still shooting a rifle so long as it has a 16 inch or longer barrel on it. The lack of the stock does not change anything. On that count he is completely wrong. It does not become a pistol just because you remove the stock.
He is correct though if you think you can remove the stock and put on a shorter than 16 inch barrel. In that case he is completely right and is what I think he meant. Doing that is making an illegal SBR or AOW.
You cannot take a lower that has ever had a stock attached to it and turn it into a pistol, EVER! You can take the rifle lower and convert it to an SBR or AOW and put a shorter than 16 inch barrel on it but not until you have done a Form 1, paid your $200, and been approved as well as have your name, city, and state engraved on the lower.

Before the "other" section was listed on the 4473 it was suggested by the ATFE that you list the stripped lower as a pistol if you were doing a pistol build. And that it be called in to NICS as a pistol but it really did not matter how it was called in to NICS on the federal level, however, in some states it does matter how it is called in.
Since the ATFE added the "other" category, when you buy a stripped lower that is how it should be listed because it is neither rifle nor pistol at that point. But it can be built into either and it is the first build that determines what it is. To play it safe, document its first build as a pistol if you are really paranoid about it but do realize that if you build it as a pistol and then put a stock on it, it becomes a rifle according to recent letters by the ATFE. So in this case, first build no longer applies. It use to be first build was what it was forever but now even if the first build is a pistol, if you put a stock on it becomes a rifle from that point forward. How they know this I still haven't figured out. Still, use any virgin lower listed as "other" on the 4473 and you can build a pistol out of it. I suggest you take pictures and document purchased items to show it was built as a pistol but in all honesty, that is for the paranoid because how would anyone ever know?
The ATFE does not go around looking for nit-picky crap like this to bust people on, but rather they use it as a "tack-on" charge when much more serious charges are at hand. Like being an illegal arms dealer. They "generously" will throw out the "illegal SBR" charges if you plead guilty to building and selling firearms in the quantity that would make you an illegal arms dealer, or some other more serious charges.
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AKsRule
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Posted: 12/25/2009 8:35:01 PM
Originally Posted By tbonifie:

Originally Posted By rjrivero:
You can NOT remove a butt stock from a rifle and have a pistol. It's illegal and will earn you 10 years in Federal Prison.
To be an AR PIstol, it has to be SOLD as a complete PISTOL, or Pistol LOWER. Or It has to be a stripped lower that has NEVER had a stock put on it before.
Your FFL didn't do you any favors by mis-represnting your Stripped lower purchase as a pistol. By defenition, stripped lowers are transfered as "other" on the notorious yellow form.
I hope someone will chime in as to what the ramifications are for an FFL who transfers a stripped lower improperly, because honestly, I don't know.

––––––

He did put "other" on the form for both lowers. But he told me they will ask him verbally and he'd say it was a pistol lower when they asked.


Your FFL is a Fucking MORON - don't ever go in that store again



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rjrivero
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Posted: 12/25/2009 10:32:14 PM
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
What RJ said is completely wrong in relation to your specific question, but right in a certain since. If you take your stock off of your 16 inch barreled AR rifle you are still over the 26 inches OAL and you are still shooting a rifle so long as it has a 16 inch or longer barrel on it. The lack of the stock does not change anything. On that count he is completely wrong. It does not become a pistol just because you remove the stock.
He is correct though if you think you can remove the stock and put on a shorter than 16 inch barrel. In that case he is completely right and is what I think he meant. Doing that is making an illegal SBR or AOW.
You cannot take a lower that has ever had a stock attached to it and turn it into a pistol, EVER! You can take the rifle lower and convert it to an SBR or AOW and put a shorter than 16 inch barrel on it but not until you have done a Form 1, paid your $200, and been approved as well as have your name, city, and state engraved on the lower.


I'm sorry I was unclear. This is exactly what I meant to say. Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I did.
tbonifie
Martyrdom covers a multitude of sins...
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Posted: 12/27/2009 1:51:41 AM
[Last Edit: 12/27/2009 1:53:28 AM by tbonifie]

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
Originally Posted By tbonifie:

Originally Posted By rjrivero:
You can NOT remove a butt stock from a rifle and have a pistol. It's illegal and will earn you 10 years in Federal Prison.
To be an AR PIstol, it has to be SOLD as a complete PISTOL, or Pistol LOWER. Or It has to be a stripped lower that has NEVER had a stock put on it before.
Your FFL didn't do you any favors by mis-represnting your Stripped lower purchase as a pistol. By defenition, stripped lowers are transfered as "other" on the notorious yellow form.
I hope someone will chime in as to what the ramifications are for an FFL who transfers a stripped lower improperly, because honestly, I don't know.

––––––

He did put "other" on the form for both lowers. But he told me they will ask him verbally and he'd say it was a pistol lower when they asked.


Your FFL is a Fucking MORON - don't ever go in that store again



Glad to see you don't over-react.

He was simply repeating his experience on the phone with the NICS folks. No harm done, their transfers are cheap and efficient, I'll continue to use him. Besides, it's a pawn shop, not a gun shop. Transfers are more of a side-business for them.

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten second hand, and without examination." - Mark Twain.
tbonifie
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Posted: 12/27/2009 1:52:45 AM

Originally Posted By rjrivero:
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
What RJ said is completely wrong in relation to your specific question, but right in a certain since. If you take your stock off of your 16 inch barreled AR rifle you are still over the 26 inches OAL and you are still shooting a rifle so long as it has a 16 inch or longer barrel on it. The lack of the stock does not change anything. On that count he is completely wrong. It does not become a pistol just because you remove the stock.
He is correct though if you think you can remove the stock and put on a shorter than 16 inch barrel. In that case he is completely right and is what I think he meant. Doing that is making an illegal SBR or AOW.
You cannot take a lower that has ever had a stock attached to it and turn it into a pistol, EVER! You can take the rifle lower and convert it to an SBR or AOW and put a shorter than 16 inch barrel on it but not until you have done a Form 1, paid your $200, and been approved as well as have your name, city, and state engraved on the lower.


I'm sorry I was unclear. This is exactly what I meant to say. Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I did.

Thanks guys, I think this sums it up well.
"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten second hand, and without examination." - Mark Twain.
JoshAston
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Posted: 12/28/2009 1:47:13 AM
Just to clarify, there is no federal maximum length for pistol barrels (or minimum for that matter). You could make your pistol with a 24" barrel if you want, as long as it's never had a stock attached to it, it's still a pistol. Some locales may have laws restricting the maximum length of pistol barrels, but I'm not aware of any.
I'm from Texas, what country are you from?