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13 cents and a whole different platform. With the grendel, all you really need is a bolt, barrel and mag with a current AR15. With the creedmor, you are stepping into a whole new rifle.

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And yet I have never made a mistake here. Imagine that! But I am here to help correct you on your mistake with the lame attempt to be an obnoxious 6.5 cultist out to convert us who who don't care about your boutique round that doesn't do anything better than .223 and 5.56..

Thanks, you became one more to ignore based on how you're being childish trying to force the issue. You need to learn that in America, we've got choices and the freedom to live and let live as our founding fathers wanted it to be because that is making America great again.

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It will be interesting to see as the new 308 based AR10's continue to evolve what will happen.  The weight has come down significantly.  Used to be a fully equiped ar 10 with 18" barrel was in the 10.5 to 11 pound range.  Now its in the 9.5 lb range.  Still many AR10's struggle with reliability and from what I have read as you go away from the 308 that reliability gets worse and worse.  Still my Grendel weights 7.5 lbs Fully loaded(18" barrel, scope and mag included) and it would be just about impossible to get a AR10 under 9lbs(with scope and sling attachments) .  So even with the lightweight frame the AR10 will be 1.5 pounds heavier.

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It will be interesting to see as the new 308 based AR10's continue to evolve what will happen.  The weight has come down significantly.  Used to be a fully equiped ar 10 with 18" barrel was in the 10.5 to 11 pound range.  Now its in the 9.5 lb range.  Still many AR10's struggle with reliability and from what I have read as you go away from the 308 that reliability gets worse and worse.  Still my Grendel weights 7.5 lbs Fully loaded(18" barrel, scope and mag included) and it would be just about impossible to get a AR10 under 9lbs(with scope and sling attachments) .  So even with the lightweight frame the AR10 will be 1.5 pounds heavier.

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That's assuming that a person has a need for long range.  It's easy to become distracted with long range perfomance when shopping for a new rifle. However 6.5G needs match ammo to achieve consistent long range accuracyDoesn't every caliber? and $1 per trigger pull is a lengthy proposition to most. Most people don't have a need to shoot long range, finding a place to shoot long range is difficult, and the support equipment to do so ie; rangefinders, spoting scopes, chronographs, etc are all expensive.  

Most people aren't shooting expensive match ammo on a consistent basis. Yet on ARF people spend the most time discussing the performance merits of the match ammo that they spend the least time shootingWhy would we be discussing the merits of non-match ammo? I have never seen a heated arguement over plinking ammo. Please direct me to a thread if there is one..

When you look at ammo you'll most likely spend the majority of your time shooting.

223/556 brass cased > 6.5G steel cased I think you're comparing apples to bananas here.

Steel cased ammo is not known for its accuracy, it is known for having lousy consistantcy in powder charges and bullet weights.

Thus in practical terms most people would be better servered by a 556 rifle which offers higher quality ammunition at a lower cost. A 556 rifle shooting a good inexpensive brass cased 223 ammo will spank a 6.5G rifle shooting inexpensive steel cased ammo in terms of accuracy even at long range. While you have a point here, I still think comparing the cartridges based on ammo quality alone is misleading. I would like to see a good comparison of barrels/bolts/triggers with both steel cased and brass cased ammo to draw a conclusion.

Again "to make the next leap" 6.5G needs cheap brass ammo to appeal to a broader segment of the market. I am not denying that a cheaper cost would help expand the cartridge, the cost of match quality 6.5 Creedmoor isn't really keeping people at the 308, is it?

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Of course there is steel cased ammo available for the 6.5G but steel cased ammo;

--is not the equivalent to  brass cased ammo in terms of accuracy
--or consistency
--or reliability
-- it is only available from one source
--is not domesticity produced and is imported from eastern countries
--is often out of stock
--causes barrel wear faster than copper jacketed brass ammo
--it burns dirtier.

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This has not been my experience with the Wolf 100gr steel case out of my AA barrel. I get between 1.5-2.5 MOA, and that is as good or better than most bulk M193-M855 I have ever shout out of any barrel.

I also suspect that the barrel wear is the same as any copper jacketed lead bullet as long as you don't let the barrel get cherry red.

But to stay on track, yes I agree that if Wolf was to put their 100gr bullet into a brass case and keep it below 25 cents pr it would sell like hot cakes. Come onnnn PPU

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I'm aware of the rules of this forum, however;

The thread title is;

"What will it take for 6.5 Grendel to make the next leap in the industry?"

We have a free market economy in the United States where products (calibers) must compete with other products (calibers) in the market in order "to make leaps in their industry".

To get back on topic.

"What will it take for 6.5 Grendel to make the next leap in the industry?"

6.5G needs cheap brass cased ammo which competes with the cost of brass 5.56 ammo.

Without it the caliber is unlikely to "make any leaps", and comparing the 6.5G's ammunition cost vs performance ratio to larger calibers of a similar ammunition cost is a valid comparison which is relative to the thread title.

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I think the 6.5G needs to compete better in terms of cost to performance ratio against other calibers in order to gain more market share and "make the next leap".

I think what most people myself included want is more bang for their buck. We want more for less. In fact I think that bar none value is hands down the #1 concern for most not all but most and rightfully so. .

This kind of thinking doesn't make any sense to me at all.  You want more capability, for less money?  Reminds me of all the threads where people don't want to spend more than $200 on a barrel, but they want 1 MOA all day long guarantee.  It's very common with people who have been told their whole life they can have whatever they want, from parents who know nothing about applied physics.

6.5G has been sold on the merits that it is a jack of all trades to include long range capability and as a general purpose caliber.

For a general purpose caliber in terms of value for the money 5.56/223 is the king.  5.56/.223 is king of killing medium game past 200yds?  Good luck with that.

5.56/223 will remain the king of general purpose calibers until another caliber can offer more performance for an equal or near equal cost for loaded brass cased ammo. Much of the inexpensive brass ammo available for 5.56/223 can be very accurate.

Of course there is steel cased ammo available for the 6.5G but steel cased ammo;

--is not the equivalent to  brass cased ammo in terms of accuracy. show your work
--or consistency   show your work
--or reliability. show your work
-- it is only available from one source.  like other reliable steel case ammo
--is not domesticity produced and is imported from eastern countries. price of tea in China
--is often out of stock. false
--causes barrel wear faster than copper jacketed brass ammo  I have yet to see a comparison in volume over enough sample sizes with 6.5 Grendel to support this.  Keep in mind chamber pressure is much lower than 5.56 with 6.5 Grendel.
--it burns dirtier false, no work shown to support, pulling statements out of thin air

For all of these reasons an inexpensive brass cased 6.5G ammo is far more desirable than steel cased 6.5G ammo and is exactly what 6.5G needs to "make the next leap", not more magazines,  bolts, barrels, bolt guns, or anything else that you already have. It's cheap brass cased ammo that's elephant in the room.

In terms of a long range caliber 6.5 Grendel will require brass cased match ammo or handloads to achieve accuracy at long range. Sticking with the cost vs performance theme of my post 6.5 Grendel match ammo cost near the same as 6.5 Creedmoor match ammo. Yet 6.5CM vastly out classes 6.5G in terms of long range shooting.

6.5G 123gr ELD is $0.93 cpr

6.5 Creedmoor Hornady 147gr ELD is $1.06 per round

For $0.13 more per round 6.5 Creedmoor has at 1000 yards;

-90% more energy . False:  30% more energy 540ft-lbs vs 766ft-lbs at 1000yds.  Your math is way off.
-9ft less drop   Drop difference is 8.8 Mils for CM, 12 Mils for Grendel shooting 147gr ELD-M
-3ft less wind drift  Drift is 1.7 CM, 2.2 Grendel

For 20" barrels

6.5 Creedmoor

http://i65.tinypic.com/2lm9oww.png

6.5 Grendel

http://i64.tinypic.com/24dh6rd.png

Thus 6.5 grendel has much room for improvement on it's value equation to compete with other calibers. Either inexpensive brass cased ammo which is comparatively priced to 5.56/223 or even getting the price of 6.5G match ammo lower is what 6.5G needs "to make the next leap". It needs to offer more value outside of the steel cased ammo.  

Any "thus" statement after your rigged comparison with 6.5 Creedmoor is invalid, and bases on false premises.  For every advantage you list for 6.5 Creedmoor, there are penalties that a lot of people don't want to pay.

If we were to theorize why 6.5 Creedmoor has exploded as a caliber for the purpose of analyzing it's success to see if valuable information can be learned and applied to the Grendel to help it "make the next leap". I would say 6.5 Creedmoor's success is because it offers similar performance to larger calibers such as 300WM and other larger magnum calibers for less cost. In comparison to 308 6.5CM offers more performance for a similar cost. Thus the the key to 6.5 Creedmoor's success has been it's value. Until 6.5 Grendel becomes a larger value I wonder if it will plateau.

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If you see this as a threat to 6.5 Creedmoor..............snipped and no.........

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As do I. I get right under 2 MOA with my Faxon barrel and Wolf Steel Cased ammo.

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So do you disagree with me that 6.5G needs cheap brass ammo that competes with the price of 223/556 brass ammo "in order to make the next leap"?

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So do you disagree with me that 6.5G needs cheap brass ammo that competes with the price of 223/556 brass ammo "in order to make the next leap"?

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So do you disagree with me that 6.5G needs cheap brass ammo that competes with the price of 223/556 brass ammo "in order to make the next leap"?

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Nope.  We had it for a while with PPU, but Grendel will succeed with or without that.

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I did finally see a box of 6.5G ammo in a local retail shop, a single lonely box of Hornady SSTs.  Outside of the internet, that is the first confirmation I have had that this cartridge actually exists.

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I did finally see a box of 6.5G ammo in a local retail shop, a single lonely box of Hornady SSTs.  Outside of the internet, that is the first confirmation I have had that this cartridge actually exists.

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They'll ship it right to your house. It's pretty neat.

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They'll ship it right to your house. It's pretty neat.

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So do you disagree with me that 6.5G needs cheap brass ammo that competes with the price of 223/556 brass ammo "in order to make the next leap"?

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It has been around for how long now?

Big things are

Mags-need more of an offering. I've only used the Elanders, work great, but extremely tight fitment and rounds rattle inside. Nearly impossible to freaking unload--no wise asses, sometimes you need to manually do that verses  unloading by jist choot'em. Loaded to capacity for months and same same.

I originally went with 6.8 years ago-after knowing about the chamber differences which plagued that cartridge, don't know if it still does or not. Now the 6.5G seems to have the issue as a result of as I understand not paying licensing fees to King Bill? and then making a variation of the chamber and bolt face depth?

While I like the Grendel, if the small frame large caliber AR's pan out, I may go to one and drop the oddball's I'm looking hard at the Savage 6.5CM hunter.

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Come off it already. What other caliber has cheap brass ammo available? 22-250? .243? 222 Remmington? 300 AAC? Those are the calibers Grendel is competing with, not the ubiquitous 223.

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I did finally see a box of 6.5G ammo in a local retail shop, a single lonely box of Hornady SSTs.  Outside of the internet, that is the first confirmation I have had that this cartridge actually exists.

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My little gun shop has 4 different types of Grendel ammo, 2 different sizes of Alexander Arms E-Lander Grendel mags, 4 or 5 Grendel barrels, and Grendel BCGs in stock. All in a town of 300 people.

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Shop owner a big Grendel proponent, or just a lot of Grendel shooters in your area?

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What will it take for 30-40 Krag to make the next leap in the industry?

Inquiring minds want to know!
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If the Russia or someone switches to it in thier AK platforms from 5.45 to 6.5 grendal.

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Serbia?

Quoted: Serbia?

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I'm convinced one of the reasons the Serbs were willing to  try it, performance aside, is that the the Russian War Machine at Barnaul is manufacturing 65G steel-case.

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I would love to get into 6.5 Grendel while now there is cheap steel case ammo but the bolt breakage is holding me back. .136" bolt recess may help extractor but not bolt. As long as the bolt breakage issue is not resolved, it may be more popular but not a huge leap! With the bolt diameter limitation, I don't think the bolt breakage can ever be resolved. May improve, but bolt life is still the weak point. On the other hand, if they offer 6.8 SPC cheap steel case ammo, 6.5 Grendel may die!

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I would love to get into 6.5 Grendel while now there is cheap steel case ammo but the bolt breakage is holding me back. .136" bolt recess may help extractor but not bolt. As long as the bolt breakage issue is not resolved, it may be more popular but not a huge leap! With the bolt diameter limitation, I don't think the bolt breakage can ever be resolved. May improve, but bolt life is still the weak point. On the other hand, if they offer 6.8 SPC cheap steel case ammo, 6.5 Grendel may die!

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Prvi is supposedly coming out with the brass 6.5 Grendel ammo again.

Also, you meant SCAR 16 in 6.5G, right?