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Posted: 2/22/2017 11:58:41 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 2/24/2017 5:06:45 PM EDT
[#2]
I hate to brake it to you, but if you affix a barrel, stock and trigger - you just made a firearm receiver.
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Posted: 2/24/2017 5:37:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hate to brake it to you, but if you affix a barrel, stock and trigger - you just made a firearm receiver. Well, of course. But when I take it apart again, which part is the firearm receiver? |
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Posted: 2/25/2017 10:06:54 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 2/25/2017 10:37:35 PM EDT
[#5]
How much does the front flop around?
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Posted: 2/25/2017 10:42:06 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 2/25/2017 11:42:16 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much does the front flop around? Significantly. Lemme get a pic. Side to side movement isn't bad, however. Would be hilarious if we didn't need zip ties, just needed to do a top hand hold. 
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Posted: 2/25/2017 11:51:55 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 2/26/2017 12:17:23 AM EDT
[#9]
Ok, 1st impressions:
These are apparently turned out by a couple of guys who make 80% 2011 frames & jigs. They don't catalog the AR trigger jigs, just sell 'em on eBay. Either the holes on the trigger jig are too short, or the screws w/ the pistol grip adapter are too long, but the upshot is the screws don't fit. Ran to Home Depot, got the right length, the right thread - and the damn heads are too large to fit into the pistol grip adapter. I've emailed 'em, we'll see what they say. My 7.62x39mm upper rear lug is too big to fit into the takedown pin pocket - and oddly, the hole in the upper's rear lug is grossly oversized. The CavArms take down pin rattles through the hole. That may cause issues in testing later. I'll have to ask sample if he remembers where he got it. The .22" LR upper & A2 upper lugs do fit, but b/c there's a radius @ the back of the AR upper, the jig is not held firmly against the upper. So, top hand hold, zip ties, pipe clamps, or some Erector set/Lego extension to the front upper lug will be needed. The good news is there's a screw hole on the bottom of the jig in the front, so if we do decide to attach something, we already have a means of attaching it. The jig does seem to be held securely laterally. How stable that will be w/ a blowback bolt slamming into the buffer tube, we'll see. The bottom rear of the jig wasn't meant to fit into a thumbhole stock, and will have to be Dremeled. As it's 3/4" thick solid aluminum, that will take just a minute or two. The good news is it just has to clear the radius of the stock where it curves around the rear of the AR receiver, it doesn't have to fit closely, as the jig will be held in the stock by the pistol grip adapter. I have a feeling that in addition to replacing the zip ties after every shooting session, there may be a need to replace the two 8-32 screws holding the pistol grip adapter to the jig. This weapon with this particular jig will be incapable of more than one bayonet drill. |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 9:16:00 AM EDT
[#10]
Heard from the eBay folks about the screws. They want pics.
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Posted: 2/28/2017 5:46:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, of course. But when I take it apart again, which part is the firearm receiver? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I hate to brake it to you, but if you affix a barrel, stock and trigger - you just made a firearm receiver. Well, of course. But when I take it apart again, which part is the firearm receiver? The jig that everything affixes to You can do the same with a hunk of wood - still a firearm and that firearm has a receiver by definition |
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Posted: 2/28/2017 9:35:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The jig that everything affixes to You can do the same with a hunk of wood - still a firearm and that firearm has a receiver by definition Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I hate to brake it to you, but if you affix a barrel, stock and trigger - you just made a firearm receiver. Well, of course. But when I take it apart again, which part is the firearm receiver? The jig that everything affixes to You can do the same with a hunk of wood - still a firearm and that firearm has a receiver by definition Yet before I assembled it it wasn't a firearm receiver according to BATFE. Ruger sells trigger jigs through the mail. Orion's Hammer did build a wooden AR receiver - it held the buffer tube, the magazine, and the FCS. Old 80% lowers had the FCS pocket, but not a magazine well. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:33:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yet before I assembled it it wasn't a firearm receiver according to BATFE. Ruger sells trigger jigs through the mail. Orion's Hammer did build a wooden AR receiver - it held the buffer tube, the magazine, and the FCS. Old 80% lowers had the FCS pocket, but not a magazine well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: I hate to brake it to you, but if you affix a barrel, stock and trigger - you just made a firearm receiver. Well, of course. But when I take it apart again, which part is the firearm receiver? The jig that everything affixes to You can do the same with a hunk of wood - still a firearm and that firearm has a receiver by definition Yet before I assembled it it wasn't a firearm receiver according to BATFE. Ruger sells trigger jigs through the mail. Orion's Hammer did build a wooden AR receiver - it held the buffer tube, the magazine, and the FCS. Old 80% lowers had the FCS pocket, but not a magazine well. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish, A hunk of metal or wood isn't a firearm receiver either until you make it so. By definition, a firearm has a receiver. And what you are proposing clearly makes a firearm (again by definition). 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) - definition of firearm 27 CFR 478.11 - definition of firearm frame or receiver |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:51:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish, A hunk of metal or wood isn't a firearm receiver either until you make it so. By definition, a firearm has a receiver. And what you are proposing clearly makes a firearm (again by definition). 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) - definition of firearm 27 CFR 478.11 - definition of firearm frame or receiver So are AR trigger jigs firearm receivers - or are they not? |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 12:57:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So are AR trigger jigs firearm receivers - or are they not?
I think a good argument could be made that the upper should have been classified as the receiver on the AR57. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:06:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Something to think about:
If you make an open bolt machinegun from an 80% AR lower - doing no modification to the lower. Is it a firearm? Open bolts don't need a fcg, just pull it back and let it run/use the bolt catch to start/stop the chain of fire. Unsafe - sure. NFA violation - sure. But where's the gun? If it's the lower, then all 80% AR's are already machineguns - and all regular lowers too, lol. All that changes is a pin behind the firing pin in your carrier or a .6" steel rod spanning the distance from your buffer to the firing pin. All that to say - NFA regs suck. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:17:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Something to think about:
If you make an open bolt machinegun from an 80% AR lower - doing no modification to the lower. Is it a firearm? Open bolts don't need a fcg, just pull it back and let it run/use the bolt catch to start/stop the chain of fire. Unsafe - sure. NFA violation - sure. But where's the gun? If it's the lower, then all 80% AR's are already machineguns - and all regular lowers too, lol. All that changes is a pin behind the firing pin in your carrier or a .6" steel rod spanning the distance from your buffer to the firing pin. All that to say - NFA regs suck. I think it would be the fixed firing pin in that case, or extra heavy floating firing pin if you went that route. For 40 years, none of this mattered. The GCA ruled, and only a handful of folks were building their own guns, and they had to have welders or a mill setup. It was California that pushed regulations that invented the AR thumbhole stock. It was liberals going apeshit over the 5.x7x28mm that made normal people interested, and thus birthed the AR5.7 upper. And it was the Clinton AWB that cemented the AR-15 as the gun the gubbermint doesn't want you to have, which finally brought us good triggers - and thus widely available trigger jigs. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:23:41 PM EDT
[#18]
What if I dump 6 buffer weights into the back of my carrier?
Are we all in possession of an illegal machinegun if we happen to own two regular AR's?
Any further progress/plans on how your going to hold the front of the jig in place? |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:39:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Well, right now I'm still waiting on a reply to my pictures which show the screws too long/hole depth too shallow w/ the eBay vendor.
Once I finally have a stable pistol grip adapter, I'll have to contour (poorly) the rear of the trigger jig w/ a Dremel to fit the Hera thumbhole stock. That's a clear modification BATFE might point to and say, ah ha! That's the firearm receiver now! If under the Trump Administration BATFE doesn't act on this, then we might see a plethora of trigger jigs on the market w/ the proper rear contouring and rear takedown pin. Then I'll be ready to test w/ the .22" LR upper. That will prove hammer alignment. My 7.62x39mm upper doesn't fit in the jig, and there's something screwy going on w/ the rear lug. The takedown pin hole is grossly oversized. I think sample got it from PSA, so I have to check w/ him, but just got it for Christmas, so it should still be under warranty. I'll need to resolve that, or borrow an upper, before testing buffer tube alignment. Orion's Hammer got 3 shots off his wooden lower before the buffer jammed in the tube, b/c his forward takedown pin ears broke off. I think he was shooting it in a sledge, rather than from the shoulder. I'm very curious now if downward pressure on the forend will keep the buffer aligned enough to work. We won't really know that until we can test w/ an AR5.7 upper, but we'll be able to test various methods of securing the upper using a standard DI upper. In order of my preference: 1 - hand held. The rear lug seemingly holds the upper longitudinally, so just downward pressure on the upper may keep it together. We'll find out. 2 - zip ties. Easily replaced, cheap, easy to assemble/disassemble. 3 - pipe clamps or wire ties. Cheap, not so easy to disassemble. 4 - Lego magwell. A friend put together one a long time ago, and using a trigger jig has always been the Easy button for a plastic brick lower. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:50:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My 7.62x39mm upper doesn't fit in the jig, and there's something screwy going on w/ the rear lug. The takedown pin hole is grossly oversized. I think sample got it from PSA, so I have to check w/ him Check with a real receiver, not the jig. It worked fine on at least one of my lowers when I tested it. |
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Posted: 3/1/2017 1:57:18 PM EDT
[#21]
It fits my Stag lower just fine. The hole is grossly oversized, however. I'll be able to widen the rear of the jig, so I can make it fit - but having the hole grossly larger than the pin may skew our testing results.
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Posted: 3/2/2017 1:34:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So are AR trigger jigs firearm receivers - or are they not? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish, A hunk of metal or wood isn't a firearm receiver either until you make it so. By definition, a firearm has a receiver. And what you are proposing clearly makes a firearm (again by definition). 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) - definition of firearm 27 CFR 478.11 - definition of firearm frame or receiver So are AR trigger jigs firearm receivers - or are they not? Just remember a shoelace wasn't a machine gun until someone asked - be careful what you wish! |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 3:14:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:That's a clear modification BATFE might point to and say, ah ha! That's the firearm receiver now! If under the Trump Administration BATFE doesn't act on this, then we might see a plethora of trigger jigs on the market w/ the proper rear contouring and rear takedown pin. BATFE is under the Judicial Branch not he Executive, they don't have to listen to any thing he says unless we change the law. |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 6:12:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BATFE is under the Judicial Branch not he Executive, they don't have to listen to any thing he says unless we change the law. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. That's completely wrong. BATFE is a part of the Treasury Dept, which is assuredly part of the Executive Branch. |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 6:18:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Currently the Bureau is part of the Department of Justice. Don't be confused, this is a division of the Executive branch. The other Departments get Presidential secretaries. The DoJ answers to Attorney General Sessions.
Edit to include. The Presidential Secretaries together form the Cabinet. Even thought they answer to the President if you really want to change the bureaucracy you also have to bitch to the Legislatures. The bureaucracy is slow to change and protects its members. Our elected Congressional representatives should pay attention to the interactions of their constituents with the executive and provide oversight as well. The third branch of the government is not the DoJ it is the Courts. Which is the Judiciary branch of the government. Edit to include. The ATF was part of the Dept of the Treasury. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 4:43:49 PM EDT
[#26]
........Wait, the Department of Justice isn't part of the Judicial Branch? Who named all these?
Look what I learned today! |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 11:50:35 PM EDT
[#27]
 Attached FileAluminum gets very warm when Dremeled. And it's a good conductor. So the end you're holding will get rather warm. Still have to trim off a couple of millimeters for it to fit the stock. A hacksaw is probably the better tool than a Dremel for cutting the rear. And while FW_wife's foot serves admirably as a vice, unfortunately concrete doesn't do good things to anodizing.
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Posted: 3/10/2017 1:13:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Lol, this stuff is easier with a mill.
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Posted: 3/10/2017 9:51:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Of course it is. But if I had a mill, would I be screwing around w/ Legos & trigger jigs?
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Posted: 3/10/2017 2:30:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course it is. But if I had a mill, would I be screwing around w/ Legos & trigger jigs? From what I've seen following some of your posts, yeah you would. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:44:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Finally hacksawed and hand-held Dremeled enough aluminum off the tail of the jig to fit the stock - some gratuitous Dremel decoration on the anodizing there.
 Attached FileOther side - FW_wife's foot works admirably as a vice for the hacksaw, but concrete does bad things to anodizing.  Attached FileTaking the stock apart:  Attached FileThe inside, and the single hex screw that holds our jig in place. Much room for steel screw/epoxy reinforcement later.  Attached File3 candidates for buffer tubes - entry length, mil-spec carbine diameter, & commercial carbine:  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:49:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Went w/ the mil-spec diameter carbine tube. FW_wife supplied a spacer for the rear.
 Attached FileA picture of the spacer, cut from electrical conduit:  Attached FileMore spacer, in case you didn't get a good look the first time:  Attached FileGoing back together:  Attached FileSudden realization we need the rear plate & an extra castle nut on there, Effort Lyndon ready to head to the range:  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:50:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Realized I can use the rear castle nut to pull the buffer tube up to the rear of the receiver, and then tighten the forward nut against the rear plate to cinch everything up:
 Attached File |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:10:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:From what I've seen following some of your posts, yeah you would. Quote HistoryQuoted:From what I've seen following some of your posts, yeah you would. LOL! 
Quoted:Realized I can use the rear castle nut to pull the buffer tube up to the rear of the receiver, and then tighten the forward nut against the rear plate to cinch everything up:
http://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/84655/20170312-231950-164755.JPG Looks like it should work, for some values of work. Using the castle nut and rear takedown pin to hold the buffer tube in compression against the upper is a neat trick and might keep it aligned statically, but I'll be curious what happens when recoil of larger rounds is applied. I'd be a little concerned the front of the buffer tube area of the stock not being designed to take those loads there risks compressing that area dimensionally if not actually breaking. Still, looks ready to go. So test with .22 upper first, then 5.56 upper, then try to find a 5.7 upper to borrow? |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 12:19:11 PM EDT
[#35]
That's the idea. Think I can run a zip tie in front of the FCS chassis through the jig and up over the upper, behind the ejection port. Will try the .22" LR upper w/ no zip ties 1st. Then the spiceman's A2 upper.
The stock might crack long term w/o internal reinforcement, but there's plenty of area in there to embed threaded rod or screws in 2-part epoxy. The buffer tube can be glued in as well. I think Hera made the thumbhole a bit too high - I could lower that w/ epoxy or Bondo - the better course might be to buy their California-compliant non-thumbhole and cut a thumbhole in the right spot. Your hand rides up too high compared to a conventional grip, which is what I think ARCLIGHT was complaining about in the stock review thread. |
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Posted: 3/13/2017 6:18:56 PM EDT
[#36]
.22"LR works fine w/ no zip ties. Separate range for .223", so no go today. .22" takes about 3 hands and a hip to load. Safety requires work. It worked w/ the A1 pistol grip, not w/ the stock.
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Posted: 5/2/2017 11:29:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Holy shit
Bump |
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Posted: 5/2/2017 11:53:13 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 5/24/2017 1:11:07 AM EDT
[#39]
Two trigger jigs enroute to
I did figger a BHO out - pull the charging handle to the rear, push in the forward assist, close the charging handle. The bolt carrier will advance until it hits the forward assist. When you release the forward assist, the bolt carrier carries the bolt into battery. The Hera Arms thumbhole has quite a bit of flex in it. I need to fill a lot of the voids w/ screws & 2-part epoxy, particularly around the pistol grip. It might also be helpful to move the buffer tube forward a titch more - but that will need to wait on strengthening the stock. |
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Posted: 5/24/2017 6:27:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Are you using pc7?
 
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Posted: 5/24/2017 7:54:35 AM EDT
[#41]
Nope, nothing's glued together on this one. No Legos yet.
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Posted: 5/24/2017 11:50:26 AM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 5/27/2017 8:26:07 PM EDT
[#43]
5.56x45mm upper test fired. No zip ties. Ejects and returns to battery. Video to be posted later, taken by@Motown_Steve.
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Posted: 5/31/2017 3:36:00 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 5/31/2017 9:02:33 PM EDT
[#45]
How many 0.223" cartridges did you fire?
Awesome stuff. Keep it up! But for the love of God, drop the "! |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 9:54:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Video up. Will take a bit to load. Lyndon works w/ a 5.56x45mm upper:
http://www.feinsteinproject.org/loes/effortlyndon/EffortLyndon223UpperFirstTestFire.mp4 ETA: It will take a LONG time to load - it's 61 MB. Highest quality potato video! |
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Posted: 5/31/2017 10:00:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many 0.223" cartridges did you fire?
Awesome stuff. Keep it up! But for the love of God, drop the "!
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Posted: 6/10/2017 9:09:12 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 6/11/2017 2:17:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Looks like you need a 3d printer so that you could have the missing bits.
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Posted: 6/11/2017 3:25:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nao Lyndon with bayonet! http://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/84655/20170610-200617-227741.JPG |
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