I want a nice AR-10.  I started looking at the GA Precision GAP-10 G2 or a JP Enterprises PSC-12.  After it's all said and done, it looks like each costs in the neighborhood of $3,700 -- plus the months and months and months of wait time.

My question is this:  How much smithing actually goes into those rifles?  Or put differently, if I just buy the premium parts myself and assemble them in my shop, can I get a rifle that is every bit as accurate for much less?

Here's my back-of-the-envelope calculation:

Area53 AR 308 El Capitan$895
Krieger 20" Barrel$750
JP Armagedon Trigger$235
Norgon Ambi-catch$80
BAD-ASS Safety Seletor$60
JP silent captured buffer$160
JP BCG & Bolt$425
Raptor AXTS$80
Luth-AR Stock$150
Grip and other misc. parts $50
Total:  $2,885

Note that the line entry for the Krieger barrel includes their charge for finishing the chamber around the JP bolt (as well as a couple of other extras, like barrel fluting).  That seems like the hardest part of the smithing, and who better to do it than Krieger.  Anyway, I assume I'm missing something?

As long as parts compatibility isn't an issue then yes you can build just as nice of rifle for far less. If you ever plan on selling the factory gun's resale will be better than your custom built gun.

I have yet to see anyone achieve the reliability of the JP and GAP gas guns from a parts bashing approach.

You really need to know what you are doing in the large frame AR world.

I would also consider .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor if you're going to throw that much coin at a serious long range rifle.

I've been down this road, starting with factory .308s, then moving to GAP before they even had the GAP-10.

I eventually went .260 Remington with GAP built on AP4 receivers and BCG, with a Bartlein pipe.

You also need to factor in tools and really studying what it takes to make these reliable and accurate.

Simply assembling quality parts doesn't always achieve accuracy, and even less seldom does it achieve basic reliability with the first set of components.

That actually makes me feel much better.  I've been building AR-15s for awhile.  Admittedly not LRP rifles, but I've been very happy with the results nonetheless.  

I have never tried to make a large-frame rifle though.  And given the premium associated with JP/GAP rifles, I was sure hoping that it was not as simple as putting together high-quality parts.  Glad to hear that here (as with most things, I guess) you get what you pay for.

On the caliber issue, I am currently working on a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun.  I was hoping the AR-10 would be a complimentary long-range semi-auto.

 
At one point a year or so ago, I think it was you who had talked about putting together a large frame how-to-build guide here.  Forgive me if I've got the wrong member.  If not, did that ever come to pass?

Read this and then you start to get some idea of what might go into a custom/premium rifle.

Hellbender's Guide

They can't afford the time to do all of these things, but the premium manufacturers will approach them from a manufacturing perspective as much as possible in order to consistently crank out reliable, accurate rifles that maintain the recognition and expectations of their names.


I personally have a lot of the tools and experience to do custom AR10 accuracy and reliability work, but that has been built on many years of working with them and the AR15.

Most of the time, assemblers at home who have very good mechanical and problem-solving skills will still run into issues with the first iteration of their build.  These problems usually are related to:

* Gas block
* Gas tube
* Chamber (they can't control unless they get a reamer)
* Buffer
* Recoil Spring
* Improper or non-ideal gas vent ports, bolt bore condition, and other problems with the bolt carrier
* Incorrect datum used for their receivers and choice of magazine
* Barrel extension mating with bolt
* Slop in the upper receiver tunnel and extension fit
* Upper receiver vice tools that gall, warp, bend, or break the pivot pin lug

Balancing out the gas system with a sensible load range is often one of the big issues people encounter, and many start with the unrealistic desire to shoot anything from lightweight projectiles with fast powders, to heavy projectiles with slow-burning projectiles, expecting the same level of reliability throughout.

Realists approach the gas system with a few loads at the most, with one ideal window where the projectile weights and charge weights don't deviate substantially, and set the guns up for that load range, also taking into consideration the rifle's performance in temperature extremes-especially extreme cold where things become more sluggish.

From the very beginning, the AR10 has never been as reliable as the AR15, coming from Jim Sullivan's perspective at least, who worked closely with Stoner throughout most of his career at ArmaLite and Cadillac-Gage.  There is something about the AR10 that leads to this, and I'm not sure what it is, since the design is the same, just larger (the AR15 being scaled down from the AR10).  Carrier mass and the cartridge are probably the main elements to blame.

Another thing with the AR15 is that we benefit literally from decades of improvements and a well-established military type classification, standardization, arctic testing, and fluid Technical Data Package even by 1967 with the Colt Model 603 (M16A1).  Decades of improvements in metallurgy, design, coatings and treatments, magazines, and end-user input from various organizations who regularly use the rifle from jungle to arctic to desert conditions have been involved with providing feedback to the military and contractors as to how to address issues encountered over a massive fleet of rifles numbering in the millions.

The closest thing to that from the AR10 has been the Dutch rifles from the 1950s/early 60s, Knight's SR-25 and M110 in limited service among the Sniper Duty positions in the US, and the LMT MWS in even lesser numbers among the UK in recent years.  

Just looking at magazines alone in the rifles that are supposed to be compatible with each other, and we still have enough issues with reliability to be of concern.

Now try to source parts as a civilian, stabbing in the dark in hopes that they will all magically come together and then function without any sort of extensive testing regimens performed on them.

From the manufacturer's perspective, a good company will invest in pyramid-testing first, then fleet-testing once they have vetted the initial pyramid.

In the pyramid, let's say 10 rifles begin high volume testing with 100,000 rounds of ammunition (of a single type BTW).

As soon as a problem arises, the testing stops, the problem is analyzed, and assessed as to whether it's just peculiar to that rifle, or if it exists on all 10.

Sometimes this doesn't show up until well into 30,000 rounds across the lot.

If there is an issue, a fix will be agreed upon after additional testing, and once it proves to address the problem in that rifle with more volume shooting, it then can be applied to the rest of the rifles.

Then another issue will pop up, and repeat the process, which I'm simplifying.

If one shop doesn't have these capabilities, imagine what happens when you take 20 different parts from all over the map, and assemble them.

How long does it work before the bolt catch breaks?

How long before the chamber ceases to feed and extract ammunition?

How long before the bolt lugs start galling as they impact the extension teeth?

How long before the extractor breaks, since it wasn't heat-treated correctly?

How long before the extractor or recoil spring lose their strength?

Gas tube clipping?

Carrier rails slamming into the receiver extension threads?

This is what you pay for when a reputable company actually tests their rifles, with all the components being controlled.

Then you need a company that can actually maintain their quality and standards in production, which is where the rubber really meets the road.

I have basically narrowed it down to very few companies at this point, and each of them even has had their bad days-everyone does.

That extra few hundred dollars is a bargain when you consider what they went through in vetting their product.

I went to update that post, but it's gone now.  I've been all over the place lately, out of State, out of Country, helping with matches, Boy Scouts, family, business, etc.

I am sorry that I haven't been able to follow up in a timely manner with that thread.  It's really something that needs precious time dedicated to it.

I know it's gotta a huge time commitment.

I read a lot of your posts in the tech forums here, and you've helped me (and I'm sure several others) solve more than one problem.  I'm a little worried about jumping into the large frame pool unguided due to the costs involved.  If you ever do find the time to put something like that together, I'd love to put it to use.

Thank you very much for your thorough post and for sharing your wisdom.  A different but analogous list prompted me to pay others to build my bolt guns.  Sounds like I'm better off doing the same with large frames; I'll stick to toying around with AR15s in my shop.

Just buy a JP or Larue. If your Interested in premium rifle its hard to go wrong with an Lrp-07 or an OBR.

I've built several and this is what I'd recommend. These companies have the gas port sizes, receiver specs, chamber specs etc down pretty well. Cobbling one together yourself you are at the mercy of stacking tolerances which are beyond your control (using expensive er "Good" parts is no guarantee that everything will play well together either).

Maybe one of the best values for the money is an Armalite AR10.  They seem to have nailed down reliability and durability without having a stratospheric price.  There are some decent factory rifles out there for sure, but for price and performance the Armalite is always a good choice.

Listen to this man.  He knows his stuff.





The AR-10 type rifle is a gun that looks an awful lot like an AR-15......and that is right about where the similarity ends.





My first AR-10 ( all top tier components ) had me making UP swear words...till I got it doing what I wanted.  



ETA: WAIT!  that was my SECOND AR-10.....my FIRST AR-10 was a 1990s Armalite 10 T Carbine.....most accurate and least reliable firearm I ever owned. I know now that it was over gassed but ArmaLite refused to accept that and never fixed the gun for shit.  Nice people....terrible bad customer service back then.  Just completely unreliable tech service and unwilling to understand the word RELIABILITY.  Funny...had I bought a rifle, I would have only had to fight their shitty Gen I mags.





My second third got me hooked on the fact that I wouldn't ( with the exception of Knight's Armament ) personally want a factory 10.  I would rather build my own.





Between those two  three guns are four ALMOST TWENTY years and a goodly chunk of real money down the pipe.  Don't even ask about ammo.  But once I got my bearings.....now I wouldn't want anything else.





It is VERY much behooving to have a good knowledge of manufacturing, dimensioning and tolerancing, ballistic behavior not only of bullets but of cartridges....because with the AR-10 type rifle....it's a fine line between perfect and, "GOD DAMMIT! "





 

lol... its like building an ar-15 with parts that cost 3x more and arn't guaranteed to fit

Whatevs. I did it on a PTAC receiver just to piss certain people off. Yes, you have to learn a bit about how to balance out the rifle, but isn't that true with any technical endeavor? Reliability on mine is pretty much absolutely satisfactory (what I determined to be desirable from a build, haven't fired more than 300rnds in one range visit to the range, usually shoot about 160rnds per visit). Accuracy with 20rnds in under 2 minutes is <1moa at 100yrds. Shooting for groups (5rnds) will sit between .5moa and .75moa.  Yeah, it's 308Win (308B chamber), because I have a metric shit-ton of 308win and 7.62x51mm ammo. I was willing to do the learnin' and the work, and my rifle was the payoff. Nothing like getting on the line and smoking some big-name rifle with a PTAC. Kind of a sleeper rifle.

edited for clarification

One thing you will see about JP and GAP is that the owners both still compete quite often, watching what is going on out in the trenches.

George Gardner regularly competes and wins or places high, in addition to hunting a lot at long range.

John Paul still competes, hosts matches at Blue Steel Ranch, and works very hard to make sure his rifles provide top level reliability and accuracy.

That says a lot to me when looking at the products, because you know that these men are putting their reputation on the line, in the presence of customers and fellow competitors.

You just don't see that a lot.

LRRP, I think your assessment of companies and their leadership keeping a hand in competition is a good one...akin to vehicle manufacturers involved in the racing arena from my take.  Do you think Armalite has benefited from similar involvement?  It seems like their lineup has expanded in a positive way due to their different management approach.  And BTW I'm no 3-gun guy, but I can see how the fallout from such involvement can be beneficial to a company's R&D in the final product.

You guys rock.  That was my first thought -- this is just like building an AR15.  Glad I asked and y'all answered before I spent a truckload of money and added my own frustrated contributions to the lexicon of profanity.

I'll disagree and say that if you are willing to spend the time and effort to get it right, you can build a LRPR from parts that is as accurate as any you purchase from a manufacturer.

The thing that sucks up the time is getting the fit of the parts exactly right, and making sure the expensive, quality barrel you purchased is as good as it should be. Sometimes even the best made barrel, from the very best maker, of the highest quality steel won't shoot worth a darn.
You can measure it, lap it, and whatever, it still won't shoot and you have to toss it. Fortunately that doesn't happen often, but it still happens, and you'll never know why. Maybe the steel crystallized funny during forging, maybe there was flex during rifling; who knows? It's sure not worth the effort to find out. Just toss it in the bin and start on the next barrel.

And wringing the final bit of accuracy out of an individual barrel means handloading for that barrel only. You'll know where to start with your loads, but COAL will be unique, and I only neck size once-fired cases from that individual chamber (and yes you can neck size only for semi-auto if you are willing to segregate the brass, and hand check every reloaded round for that chamber).

You have to be willing to spend a lot of time working on your project, and then a lot of time shooting it to get it tweaked just right.

If your time is worth anything it will be cheaper to buy it already made, and let them throw away the bad barrels.

G.

This also makes me wonder about some of the smaller places making AR10 type rifles that are quite affordable.  I mean, if you can get a 22" AR in 6.5 CM that shoots for $1229, I don't know how much better you can do by building it.

This is a truth you should take to heart.

Hahahaha...that is a very good way to put it.

I bought Armalite AR-10 uppers and lowers, Noveske barrels (21" and 16") and virtually all other parts were straight from Armalite except for one of my free float tubes.

It was cheaper than buying anything on the market other than something off the rack. The Noveske barrels are hammers and I have had reliable functioning even when new.

I would pass on most of the items you specified on your build sheet, not because anything is wrong with them. I just think most of it is "fluff".

Norgon Ambi-catch ----- gone.
Area 53 AR308 ----- gone
Sub Geissele trigger instead of JP
Bad-ass  safety lever ------ gone.
JP silent buffer  ---- gone.
JP Bolt group ---- gone.
Raptor - AXT ---- gone.
Barrel fluting ---- gone.

Buy an extra bolt and common parts that might need replacement over the course of your life. Firing pin, ejector, extractor, springs etc.

I agree with all this except the Norgon. That really is a nice piece, but not needed. Just makes specific drills easier, but doesn't really add any benefit to the system.

The raptor should be subbed for a BCM. If you're not left handed, there really is no need for an ambi charging handle.

Gieselle triggers are really nice, after shooting the SD-C next to my Armalite 2 stage, i don't see the need for the extra money. But, i do really like the BCM trigger and lpk. Very crisp detents, very nice trigger. Gonna use these from now on.

You could get the DEF10, and have room for a better barrel, and handguard, then have extras to add whatever you want. Would most likely be under your stated cost, and have a very solid system to build upon.

Rolling your own, is mostly a crap shoot for a *real* reliable rifle.

Now hear me out...  I have a LR 308 that started out as a DPMS Oracle.   I bought it for 599 at Rural King.  I wanted to use that as a basis for a LR Rifle.  Then I saw an upper from Alex Pro Fab.  It was cheaper than trying to get a barrel, FF tube etc...  I sold the stock DPMS upper for the same price I paid for the ALEX Pro upper.  Then I started upgrading.  Giessele SSA, Hogue Grip, glass, BCM Charging Handle, Luth AR Stock Kyn-SHot buffer.  It has been 100% Reliable and pretty accurate.  It was WAY overgassed  so I emailed JP to ask them about there adjustable gas blocks.  Mel over there has helped me out a ton.  I installed it, brought it to the range and tuned it.  It now shoots like 5.56.  I hardly have any rounds since the gas block, but I dont see why is wont still be reliable.  After talking to Mel at JP and hearing his understanding of Large Frames.  If I was going to build a HIGH end 308, I'd just buy a JP.  I think I could do well, but they have it down and If I was spending close to that kind of money anyway, I'd kick myself for not going JP.  All told though, I only have about $1200 into it without glass.  Most of my friends that have shot it think I have at least a couple G's into it.   It turned out really nice.  

Here is a link to my build.  

MY DPMS LR308 Build

Interesting thread and considering I'm mid build I'll make a build thread once all my parts are in hand. This threads got my slightly concerned.

Needless to say, I will be following this thread.  My Juggernaut Tactical LR-308 billet set just shipped.  It will be a bit before this gets put together, but I planned on using a JP barrel kit.  Maybe that will keep me from having any issues.

You can always build a nice gun for less than you can buy the custom. You must make sure that all your stuff is compatible with what you are building. Do your research, the last thing you want to be doing is buying parts over again. The 308 market is diff because nothing is standardized like the ar15 market. Diff lowers match up with diff uppers and so fourth. The custom makers will take care of all that for you ahead of time. You can also find some smoking deals on the EE for high end customs like GAP, Larue, and so fourth. Most of them only have a few rounds on them and people find out it is not their thing to shoot a gas gun. And, in most cases, you can get them for just a little more than what it would have cost you to buy all you parts and put together yourself.  I had been waiting to get an LMT MWS with the slick side rails for the longest time because I did not want to pay retail for it. I got a smoking deal on mine that was barely used. Exactly the way I wanted it. Worked out great. I am load developing now. Sure, I had to wait a little for what I wanted but once it was there, I made the purchase. There will be plenty of rifles getting sold here before long coming out of Cali if things don't change over there.

Funny you mention this.

Several years ago, talking with a good friend of mine who competed a lot in field matches like Steel Safari (and now runs them as part of Competitive Dynamics), he mentioned that he had never seen a gas gun make it through a match.  Some other bolt guns with very complicated triggers also choked horribly out in the dirt and dust at Steel Safari.

I was RO'ing for Steel Safari this year, and saw one competitor shooting a JP LRP-07 chambered in .260 Remington, and it ran liked a raped ape.

He also placed pretty high in the match, especially going against guys who were shooting $4000 and up custom bolt guns who are Nationally-placed PRS shooters.

When I placed 2nd in FinnSniper with my Irish partner in 2008, I used a GAP custom-built .308 gas gun with an Obermeyer barrel, shooting 155gr Scenars as fast as I could safely shoot them, and it ran 100% over a 3-day period for me, across a lot of stages, all of which were in field conditions with beach sand, lots of walking, running, and crawling.

Both of those rifles shoot bug holes at 100yds, and 1/2 MOA groups at 500yds still.

The prices on them are actually very competitive for what you will pay for in total after all your tools, time, multiple shipping for different vendors, test-firing, reliability testing, range fees, and gas.

This is assuming you can build an equal rifle in performance, with the organizational knowledge that GAP or JP bring to the table.

LRRPF,

Assuming a person starts with all high quality parts and has a professional assemble them do you think that would result in a rifle equal to JP or other well known quality rifles?

I'm bleeding money on my Mega Maten build and this thread is pushing me towards have Adco do the assembly/testing.

Just wondering what do you think Adco or any other shop is going to do assembling parts that will make your rifle work any different then taking your time and using the correct tools?

I have assembled LOTS of AR's and 4 large frame AR's and only use top tier parts.....JP, Seekins, Mega, Proof Reseach, etc., and every single one of them has shot, functioned, and looked as nice as my JP's.

The only thing that JP does is "thermal fit" their barrels. Your freezer and a heat gun will get you the same result....just do a search on how it's done.

This same thing has come up when I was active in bench rest shooting. A lot of folks claiming that certain gun builders had some kind of secret to making rifles that shoot extreamly well.

So one day I hit my friend up who is a machinist with an old lathe and asked him about putting me a rifle together. I ordered a Kreiger barrel, BAT action, PTG reamer, McMillan stock and showed up at his house. 2 days later we had a bench rifle that won me LOTS of 1000 and 600 yard matches. Since then he went into the gun business and builds quite a few winning rifles....still from his garage.

Machining is about tolerances. Set your lathe and mill up right, zero everything out, and take your time.

Same with putting a AR together. Start with known quality parts. Use the correct tools to assemble it. And you should be good to go. Your going to treat your rifle better then shipping the parts off to someone who looks at it as just another job.

What I see is people trying to mix and match parts and do things on the cheap and then wonder why they thing does not shoot right.

Of course this is just my experience and YMMV. And oh....I am a big JP supporter, but do enjoy building things with my own hands.

A company that inherits all the parts that they have no control over when looking at design, fit, articulation, QC, or overall end product can't be held responsible.

JP and GAP, or any other company are the final line in the QC process before it sees the customer.

They get to design, specify, test, control, limit, standardize, and do the final testing on the rifles before letting them out.

If there is something wrong along the production chain, they can ID that and cull it before it becomes your problem.

Adco can't do that.

I've seen several builds that have worked out eventually, but not initially when sourcing high-end parts.

I guess I am in the minority here, but I vote for building.

I've had great luck with my 6.5 creedmoor maten. Krieger barrel, SSA-E, DPMS bcg, apex handguard, SLR gas block. Excellent reliability and accuracy with about 750 rounds now. Average 5 shot groups around 0.6 moa at 100 yds. Lots of fun on steel out to 1k so far.



10 shots into ~.7"



And just for fun, 22 shots over a wide range of charge weights into just over 1 moa. This was when I was doing load development and seeing what velocity I would get for a wide range of charge weights. Just happened to group pretty decent despite the big range in charge weights.



Just finished a 308 build with 16" rainier ultra match, 2a armament receiver set, JP LMOS BCG, SSA-E, SLR handguard and gas block. Only ~40 rds in but so far so good.

The 3 shot groups with the 308 (don't worry, 5 and 10 shot groups are in its future) with 168 gr FGMM were .34", .42", and .55". Those were the only groups shot with match ammo that day. Like I said, promising so far but more testing needed.



(Upper left was from a different group with bulk ammo)

Well aren't you a ray of sunshine

I just snagged a Rainier Arms .308 Select 18" barrel and Syrac Adjustable GB on the EE so I'm down to needing a BCG at this point. I'll get pix of everything before and after assembly. I'm strongly hoping a lot of problems are headed off with the adjustable GB but time and testing will tell.

I would rather be shooting myself vs cussing and wrenching.  You can buy all the parts you want but, you still have to put them together and make them work.




The standardization of AR-15's mean almost any gun plumber can make a rifle that will shoot reasonably reliably and reasonably well assuming a good parts set.  AR-10's have a lot of proprietary parts and in general lack standardization.  This means you can't be your average gun plumber and expect to have a great rifle that works all the time though, you can occasionally get lucky.  Then you have the issue of people shooting AR-15's generally close in and AR-10's farther out further exaggerating the differences in build quality.

So, after adding the cost of tools and extra shipping, not valuing your time at all, how much are you saving?  A few hundred dollars for all that risk of problems and all that time?  Not me.

If a few hundred dollars makes that much difference, what are you going to do about rings and optics?  A gently used PREMIUM maker AR-10 can generally be found for what you will eventually end up paying which will put you at the range shooting instead of the work shop cussing and swearing.




 
 
 

I've owned some high-end and normal AR10/SR25's over the years (KAC SR25, couple of AR10T's, Rock River LAR8) and just recently got back into the AR10 game.  Built a rifle using a Mega MA-TEN upper/lower set with the integrated rail.  Rainier Match 16" barrel, AIM BCG, and a Geissele SDC trigger (Larue MBT now).  Also has a Thunderbeast CB9 on the end.  IOR 4-14x in an ADM mount for optics.



Only special tool (other than the AR tools I already had) I had to get was a receiver block so I could install the barrel.  I have had ZERO reliability issues at all.  It's a midlength and has been so far fed a steady diet of PRVI 165gr SP's and PRVI 168gr match rounds.

Maybe in another month (still recovering from heart surgery) I'll hit the bench again and shoot some groups with it.  Heck, I'm thinking of building another one.  Based on my experience I'd have a very hard time dropping just shy of $4k on an AR10.