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Posted: 10/12/2015 1:37:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's really screwed up. How did they check the headspace on that before they sent it out?  Why would they check headspace when simply putting a barrel into a receiver? The headspace isn't affected by that. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 1:41:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which question is that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
By the way - you never answered my question about the barrel nut. Which question is that? Well - I went back and realized I didn't really ask it correctly. Quoted:
I'm beginning to think you might have a very rough finish on the inside of your barrel nut, or your barrel nut is somehow binding/seizing on your barrel extension, and this is placing extraordinary stress on the barrel extension which is rotating in the receiver. What kind of barrel nut are you using? The best thing is to place grease on the surface of the barrel extension that faces the barrel, and to NOT have any grease on the face of the receiver and the back of the extension. This allows maximum friction between the receiver and the extension, and minimal friction between the nut and extension, which is what causes excessive rotational torque. I see you are using a MI nut. Have you checked to make sure the MI nut isn't rough finished or undersized, and creating too much rotational force on the barrel extension, and did you grease it like above? With this many failures including a major screwup by Rainier.... I'm going with something fubar with the barrel nut. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 1:42:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would they check headspace when simply putting a barrel into a receiver? The headspace isn't affected by that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's really screwed up. How did they check the headspace on that before they sent it out? Why would they check headspace when simply putting a barrel into a receiver? The headspace isn't affected by that. I asked them to check the headspace. Something is obviously not right and I want to be sure before I start shooting it. In reference to your question about the barrel nut, it is the barrel nut that the Midwest Industries free float MLOK handguard came with. I've yet to see any damage to the nut itself. Of course, this now makes twice that I've had an issue and once that the experts at Rainier have had an issue. I was hoping that a fresh set of expert eyes on the problem would have identified the issue, but apparently not. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:29:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Tourque to 50 ft lbs and start to add little bit of tourque at a time lining up for the gas tube. Quote HistoryQuoted:Tourque to 50 ft lbs and start to add little bit of tourque at a time lining up for the gas tube. Quoted:
I didn't use a reaction rod the two times I installed the barrel and the alignment pin broke. I used upper blocks in a vice. I hand tightened everything, torqued to 30 ft lbs,... First you said 50 ft/lbs, then you said 30 ft/lbs. So I guess I am confused. Quoted:
This last time that Rainier installed and headspaced the barrel, I couldn't tell you what their processes are. I can tell you the result was the same as what I got the two times the alignment pin broke. So when you installed it yourself was the barrel extension recessed in the receiver and were the feed ramps misaligned with the M4 cuts in the receiver? I can understand the barrel being rotated since the index pin broke but the recessed barrel extension (as pictured after being returned from the vendor) tells me the index pin is not seated in the alignment notch on the upper. Did it have the recess when you did it? |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:51:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First you said 50 ft/lbs, then you said 30 ft/lbs. So I guess I am confused. So when you installed it yourself was the barrel extension recessed in the receiver and were the feed ramps misaligned with the M4 cuts in the receiver? I can understand the barrel being rotated since the index pin broke but the recessed barrel extension (as pictured after being returned from the vendor) tells me the index pin is not seated in the alignment notch on the upper. Did it have the recess when you did it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:Tourque to 50 ft lbs and start to add little bit of tourque at a time lining up for the gas tube. Quoted:
I didn't use a reaction rod the two times I installed the barrel and the alignment pin broke. I used upper blocks in a vice. I hand tightened everything, torqued to 30 ft lbs,... First you said 50 ft/lbs, then you said 30 ft/lbs. So I guess I am confused. Quoted:
This last time that Rainier installed and headspaced the barrel, I couldn't tell you what their processes are. I can tell you the result was the same as what I got the two times the alignment pin broke. So when you installed it yourself was the barrel extension recessed in the receiver and were the feed ramps misaligned with the M4 cuts in the receiver? I can understand the barrel being rotated since the index pin broke but the recessed barrel extension (as pictured after being returned from the vendor) tells me the index pin is not seated in the alignment notch on the upper. Did it have the recess when you did it? Torqued to 30 ft lbs, loosened and retourqued to 30 ft lbs x 3 as directed in the technical order. Once the third tourque to 30 ft lbs and loosen is complete, tourque to final torque needed for gas tube alignment not to exeed 60 ft lbs per Midwest Industries for their supplied barrel nut. (80 ft lbs for T.O. Spec). The barrel seated just fine when the barrel nut was hand tight. With everything hand tight, I checked function of the bolt, carrier, buffer system and trigger. All worked as designed for a function check. Feed ramps were aligned correctly allowing the bolt to enter the extension and lock in place. The feed ramps only rotated after the alignment pin sheared. This is not a case of the alignment pin not entering the cut in the upper. Everything was seated properly. This is a case of sheared alignment pins, either because the pins weren't correct or becuase something is causing excessive rotating force on the pin. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 3:52:47 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm interested in hearing how this turns out and what the problem was. I'm considering buying a Ranier Ultramatch in 6.5 grendel
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Posted: 10/12/2015 4:22:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm interested in hearing how this turns out and what the problem was. I'm considering buying a Ranier Ultramatch in 6.5 grendel Me too! 
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Posted: 10/12/2015 6:21:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:This is a case of sheared alignment pins, either because the pins weren't correct or becuase something is causing excessive rotating force on the pin. I guess what I am trying to say is that is appears whomever last assembled the upper didn't get the index pin in the slot on the upper receiver or the barrel extension would not be rotated nor would there be a gad between the inner face of the upper and the end of the barrel extension. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 6:30:47 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess what I am trying to say is that is appears whomever last assembled the upper didn't get the index pin in the slot on the upper receiver or the barrel extension would not be rotated nor would there be a gad between the inner face of the upper and the end of the barrel extension. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:This is a case of sheared alignment pins, either because the pins weren't correct or becuase something is causing excessive rotating force on the pin. I guess what I am trying to say is that is appears whomever last assembled the upper didn't get the index pin in the slot on the upper receiver or the barrel extension would not be rotated nor would there be a gad between the inner face of the upper and the end of the barrel extension. I think the index pin was in the slot. But it's been sheared off or worse, bent at a 90 degree angle and possibly the slot has been deformed |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:19:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Was the pin sheared and require someone drill it out and replace it?
B |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 8:24:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was the pin sheared and require someone drill it out and replace it? B Pin sheared the first time and I sent it back to Rainier. They replaced the pin and sent it back. Pin sheared the second time and I sent it back. It sat there for a few weeks until I called and they said they could either fix the broken pin or just install a new barrel (rifle length gas instead of carbine). I opted for the new barrel. They installed the barrel and it came back to me in the condition pictured. I shipped everything back to them this morning in the condition I recieved it in on Friday. |
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Posted: 10/12/2015 9:18:09 PM EDT
[#12]
FWIW the only index pin I have ever broken/sheared off was on a Rainier Ultramatch barrel. There was no damage to the upper or anything other than the pin and they replaced the pin, but I still wonder why it happened. I think that was almost two years ago.
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Posted: 10/12/2015 10:24:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the index pin was in the slot. But it's been sheared off or worse, bent at a 90 degree angle and possibly the slot has been deformed If the pin is all the way in the slot there would not be a gap between the end of the barrel extension and the inner face of the upper receiver. You can clearly see in the photos there is a gap and I bet the depth of the gap is the same as the diameter of the index pin. Don't ask me how I know all of this...I won't tell! |
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Posted: 10/13/2015 12:10:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FWIW the only index pin I have ever broken/sheared off was on a Rainier Ultramatch barrel. There was no damage to the upper or anything other than the pin and they replaced the pin, but I still wonder why it happened. I think that was almost two years ago. That's interesting... |
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Posted: 10/17/2015 10:42:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Ventilator.....just know that you aren't alone. What did it take me to get mine shooting right? I think a year!!!!
I nearly went crazy on that one!!! |
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Posted: 10/18/2015 2:41:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ventilator.....just know that you aren't alone. What did it take me to get mine shooting right? I think a year!!!! I nearly went crazy on that one!!! I'd just like to at least fire a shot with the rifle for the amount of money I have in it. |
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Posted: 10/18/2015 3:46:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd just like to at least fire a shot with the rifle for the amount of money I have in it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ventilator.....just know that you aren't alone. What did it take me to get mine shooting right? I think a year!!!! I nearly went crazy on that one!!! I'd just like to at least fire a shot with the rifle for the amount of money I have in it. Imagine, my brother in misery, firing hundreds of rounds trying to track down your problem.  |
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Posted: 10/18/2015 4:09:29 PM EDT
[#18]
So it sounds like Rainier spends too much money advertising overpriced parts on this forum instead of fixing the broken stuff they sell?
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Posted: 10/18/2015 4:52:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it sounds like Rainier spends too much money advertising overpriced parts on this forum instead of fixing the broken stuff they sell? This isn't GD. This is a technical forum for AR Variants. |
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Posted: 10/18/2015 7:44:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it sounds like Rainier spends too much money advertising overpriced parts on this forum instead of fixing the broken stuff they sell? I'm not to that level of pissed off yet. Just very frustrated. I still have high hopes that the Rainier chambered and branded Shilen barrel will live up to the hype. I'm looking for MOA or under with match ammo. I've spent the money and I know I have the ability, we'll see when I finally get a working rifle...I was just starting to doubt my mechanical abilities to install a barrel even though I have done upwards of 30 barrel installs and swaps on various M16 series rifles. Rainier's communication leaves much to be desired, but Mike Hwang and Mac Pevey have definitely made me believe they truly are interested in serving the customer with the best product they can. The rest of them...well hopefully I'll get a working gun this time and can say great things about them as well. |
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Posted: 10/23/2015 1:35:31 PM EDT
[#21]
I've got everything back and assembled. It function checks and I'll get it out next week to tune the gas, zero, and gather data.
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Posted: 11/10/2015 12:04:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Just a theory. But I had this happen once. Luckily it was on a 9mm blow back build so it didn't cause a problem. This was my first upper built. I greased every interface between receiver and barrel extension and nut. And I think that was my mistake. It meant that there was no meaningful friction between barrel extension and receiver. Also, since there were no bolt lug recesses on the back of the barrel, I couldn't use my MagPul BEV block, just mil-spec barrel vice jaws. So the pin had to take the full torque.
After that I only grease the interfaces between the nut and the receiver threads and the interfaces between the nut and the front of the barrel extension flange. I leave all contact surfaces between the barrel extension and receiver dry. I also use the MagPul BEV block which restrains both the barrel extension (like a reaction rod) and the upper receiver (like regular receiver vice blocks). Since reaction rods alone or receiver vice blocks alone usually work, I strongly suspect that greasing the barrel extension to receiver interface is the problem. |
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Posted: 11/10/2015 11:07:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just a theory. But I had this happen once. Luckily it was on a 9mm blow back build so it didn't cause a problem. This was my first upper built. I greased every interface between receiver and barrel extension and nut. And I think that was my mistake. It meant that there was no meaningful friction between barrel extension and receiver. Also, since there were no bolt lug recesses on the back of the barrel, I couldn't use my MagPul BEV block, just mil-spec barrel vice jaws. So the pin had to take the full torque. After that I only grease the interfaces between the nut and the receiver threads and the interfaces between the nut and the front of the barrel extension flange. I leave all contact surfaces between the barrel extension and receiver dry. I also use the MagPul BEV block which restrains both the barrel extension (like a reaction rod) and the upper receiver (like regular receiver vice blocks). Since reaction rods alone or receiver vice blocks alone usually work, I strongly suspect that greasing the barrel extension to receiver interface is the problem. I don't know what the problem was as I never got a response from the folks at Rainier when I asked what the problem was. They don't communicate well at all, but they took care of the problem after three broken alignment pins. You all can make your own assumptions about Rainier beyond that. I've got 80 rounds out of it without a single hiccup. It shoots okay as far as consistency and accuracy go and will hopefully get better as the barrel gets broken in and I find a good load for it. |
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