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Posted: 4/25/2015 5:35:46 PM EDT
[#1]
SLR Rifle works adjustable gas block. (I have one love it).
Slash extra heavy buffer can be found on EE. Either one will work alone, both won't be a problem for the rifle. |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 6:09:39 PM EDT
[#2]
You might want to try one of Slashe's extra heavy buffers. I've not tried it but I've read wthat it helps lower felt recoil.
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Posted: 4/25/2015 6:23:14 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm installing a CAR 10 XH heavy buffer and spring from Heavy Buffers in my new LR308 build. I sent Clint the parts specs and he said this setup will be perfect. Not cheap, but with all the $$$ I've spent what's $150 more (haha)
I still may go with an adjustable gas block to fine tune if I have to. Should finish the rifle tonight! I'm workin graveyards so I can get the lower milled. Gives me something to do in a 10 hour shift. Pictures and reports coming! (if anyone cares??.....) PasoGunner |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 7:10:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Heavy buffer OR adjustable gas block. There's really no need for both. Force = mass X acceleration. Adjustable gas block reduces the force, heavy buffer increases mass. If you put in a heavy buffer and an adjustable gas block you'll just be opening up the gas block more than you would have without the heavy buffer.
-Stooxie |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 8:42:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Reload using lighter weight bullets (125gr) at 2500-2700fps. Works for me.
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Posted: 4/25/2015 9:04:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Glshock rifle stock, it will spread the felt recoil over a longer period of time lowering the felt pulse.
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Posted: 4/25/2015 9:10:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heavy buffer OR adjustable gas block. There's really no need for both. Force = mass X acceleration. Adjustable gas block reduces the force, heavy buffer increases mass. If you put in a heavy buffer and an adjustable gas block you'll just be opening up the gas block more than you would have without the heavy buffer. -Stooxie Spot on. I had my SLR around 12 clicks open to cycle good. 8 clicks locked back, but still felt weak, so opened it up and 12 is pretty much wide open even though it's 15 clicks i think. I had the UBR with slash XH carbine buffer. Heavy buffer helps reduce the shock feeling, but still gives you more mass slinging back. This is when you need a stiff and consistent spring. Slash stuff is best if going with an AR15 carbine tube. If you go with the Vltor A5 or Armalite carbine tube, even Slash recommends an Armalite spring, or used to. Then use an H3 buffer, one from Slash, or try something heavier than H3. I'd be curious how Spikes tungsten powder ones would work. I think they have an ST3 or 4 now. Doesn't PSA use a longer carbine tube for the PA10? I thought i remember seeing something about it on their site but haven't looked since it came out. I recommend the Armalite setup. Not the cheapest, but worth every penny. If you want to lighten things up, get the SLR block, Armalite spring, and an H1 buffer. Then adjust to the rifles liking. |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 9:31:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Some expensive muzzle devices are little more than a expensive noise maker. The best break I've ever used is the Fat Bastard and it's little brother Little Bastard by Jerrod Joplin at American Patriot Arms. With out a doubt the best recoil check made. The Fat bastard tamed a custom 300 Remington Ultra Mag down to 243 Win level recoil. Made a recoil reduction of 70 or 80 percent. Buffers and Adjustable gas blocks are fine but slow down the rifle to achieve the reduction in recoil. You may experience feeding problems in cold weather or with slightly under powered ammo.
Quoted:
My PA 10 as a good amount of recoil, besides a decent muzzle brake, what other things, if any can be don't to reduce recoil? Mine is 18 in mid length, I have a decent muzzle brake, and it did reduce recoil Noticebly . Any thoughts? |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 10:07:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some expensive muzzle devices are little more than a expensive noise maker. The best break I've ever used is the Fat Bastard and it's little brother Little Bastard by Jerrod Joplin at American Patriot Arms. With out a doubt the best recoil check made. The Fat bastard tamed a custom 300 Remington Ultra Mag down to 243 Win level recoil. Made a recoil reduction of 70 or 80 percent. Buffers and Adjustable gas blocks are fine but slow down the rifle to achieve the reduction in recoil. You may experience feeding problems in cold weather or with slightly under powered ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some expensive muzzle devices are little more than a expensive noise maker. The best break I've ever used is the Fat Bastard and it's little brother Little Bastard by Jerrod Joplin at American Patriot Arms. With out a doubt the best recoil check made. The Fat bastard tamed a custom 300 Remington Ultra Mag down to 243 Win level recoil. Made a recoil reduction of 70 or 80 percent. Buffers and Adjustable gas blocks are fine but slow down the rifle to achieve the reduction in recoil. You may experience feeding problems in cold weather or with slightly under powered ammo. Quoted:
My PA 10 as a good amount of recoil, besides a decent muzzle brake, what other things, if any can be don't to reduce recoil? Mine is 18 in mid length, I have a decent muzzle brake, and it did reduce recoil Noticebly . Any thoughts? I won't argue the benefits of a good brake. Still, there is something behind the effect of the Armalite buffer system and length. The AR10 I just installed a 16" barrel on with the Armalite buffer setup and an AAC 4-port shoots as smoothly as my 20" barrel AR10 .308...which is to say, really soft. The 16" carbine has a mid-length gas. There's nothing particularly magic about the Armalite's buffer and extension tube setup, but apparently it does truly work in reducing recoil. |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 10:24:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryDoesn't PSA use a longer carbine tube for the PA10? I thought i remember seeing something about it on their site but haven't looked since it came out. . Yes, mine has a longer buffer tube, and standard size carbine buffer, currently has the PSA Buffer with H marked on it. Also the spring itself feels much stiffer, and doesn't bend as easy as the one in my ar15 I'll try the heavier buffer route, before a gas block. (Just for the sake of keeping the a2 front site for a while) I'll Reaser the stock mentioned earlier as well. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:48:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
My PA 10 as a good amount of recoil, besides a decent muzzle brake, what other things, if any can be don't to reduce recoil? Mine is 18 in mid length, I have a decent muzzle brake, and it did reduce recoil Noticebly . Any thoughts? Well, you can reduce the perception of recoil by shooting a full 20 magazine from an M14 in the prone position rapidly just before shooting your PA10. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 7:38:42 AM EDT
[#12]
Adding to what stooxie said simply and accurately, you can either try to tame the intentionally over-gassed design with heavier buffers and springs OR you can tune the gas system for optimal performance. The guys that shoot in simulated combat type matches where there is a premium on fast sight acquisition for follow up shots all know this.
You have to remember that most semi/full auto military weapons are designed to be as close to grunt proof as possible with functionality as an imperative. Better an over-gassed system that functions under all conditions with any ammo, than a finicky finely tuned weapon, is the mindset. But, that is an over stated goal. With an adjustable gas system you can have your cake and eat it too. Check out this link on testing and tuning an adjustable gas system: http://www.majorpandemic.com/2012/06/all-about-adjustable-ar-gas-blocks.html |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 9:35:21 AM EDT
[#13]
You could appear to be a real he-man to your buddies....
Get one of those PAST shooter pads (about 1/2") and wear it under tour shirt... Fire off a mag rapid fire and smile... let one of them shoot it - Instant super-dude!  |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:06:41 PM EDT
[#14]
I know the OP said he had a muzzle break that didn't do much to reduce the recoil. I installed the Surefire SOCOM on 2 of my 308's and the reduction in recoil was very dramatic.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:41:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Reduce the bullet weight and load and add weight.
A Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 gr bullet running at 2800 in a 10# rifle will have 10.5# of recoil without a MB. With a MB probably about 7-8#. You might need an adjustable gas block. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 4:46:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Haven't done this with my 308 but a low mass carrier has made a huge difference with felt recoil in my .458 socom and my .338 federal.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 5:30:28 PM EDT
[#17]
The best thing to do to manage recoil (and the cheapest!) is to make sure you're shouldering the rifle correctly, and that you're properly positioned while holding the rifle. The butt should be in the "pocket" of your shoulder, and you should have your weight slightly forward, so your whole body resists and absorbs the recoil. An AR in .308 probably can't kick measurably more than a Garand, and that's exactly how you manage recoil with the M1.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 10:46:08 PM EDT
[#18]
The "felt recoil" of an M1 or M14 is sharper that that of an AR in .308. Here's why:
1) The bolt mass of an M1/M14 is large compared to the mass of the op rod. The amount of energy required to unlock and extract the round is more or less fixed but the energy required to accelerate the bolt to to sufficient velocity to cycle the action goes up with bolt mass. Since E = 1/2 mv^2 and m of the op rod is small it needs more v to get the job done. The AR has a much higher bolt carrier mass compared to the bolt so the energy equation allows for a lower bolt carrier velocity to do the same job and slightly less energy due to the lighter weight bolt. 2) The bolt throw of an M1/M14 is very short, the total distance traveled is little more than the length of the cartridge. Therefore, the spring does not get the extract that much energy from the system before it stops (by hitting the receiver). In an AR type design the bolt throw is longer, the bolt first must travel to clear the barrel extension, then the cartridge length and then it has a bit of over-travel. This extra distance allows the spring to slowly transfer more energy to the shoulder over a longer period of time. 3) The operating rod of an M1/M14 stops when the op rod slams into the front face of the receiver, in affect a hammer blow to the receiver, stock and ultimately your shoulder. Probably the most important thing, the AR type buffer has a (relatively) soft rear end that acts as a spring to cushion the impact of the reciprocating mass when it bottoms out. All of this is why shooting an M14 in full auto is a thoroughly unpleasant experience. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 10:48:12 PM EDT
[#19]
most gamers who want to make their rifle recoil less remove weight, NOT add it.
I went froma slash H buffer to a Xtra heaver buffer and that hange alone make the rifle kick notiacably harder. Admittedly, sometimes, adding weight to a given gun may slow the action down just right so that it doesn't quite bottom out as hard as it did w/ a lighter buffer. That is if the spring is really strong and the gun is not too bad overgassed w/ the heaveir buffer. These things have lots of moving parts and are complicated. Still, the general directino to go for lighter recioling action is towards lighter buffer/carrier combined with either lighter or heavier action spring, depending on your doctrine, and of course a moderated gas system. You guys understand that the buffer is like a dead blow hammer right? It gives you the one two punch effect, first when the action bottoms out, then when the weight stack bottoms out in the buffer. The buffer makes the action bounce less at either ends of its movement, giving it pause, preventing bouncing, especially to keep the hammer from falling on an out of battery rifle resulting in the primer not being hit and you needing to charge the gun to get bakc in the fight. This is not a problem w/ semi autos though. There is probably no need for any buffer weights in a semi auto AR so long as it is not over gassed and has premature extraction. Anyway OP, probably look at removing weight and modering that gas. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 11:09:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heavy buffer OR adjustable gas block. There's really no need for both. Force = mass X acceleration. Adjustable gas block reduces the force, heavy buffer increases mass. If you put in a heavy buffer and an adjustable gas block you'll just be opening up the gas block more than you would have without the heavy buffer. -Stooxie On the adjustable gas blocks like the JP clamp-on, I notice they have 3 stout looking allen screws securing the clamp. My AR10's have factory clamp-on gas blocks with 2 screws which have been totally reliable...just not adjustable. However, the OEM Armalite blocks seem to be steel. I notice JP makes identical 3-screw adjustable blocks in steel and aluminum. Would the aluminum models offer the same sealing quality as the steel versions, seeing that they both have 3 clamp screws? I've been thinking about experimenting with an adjustable block on my carbine .308 AR10. I've never had an adjustable DI rifle. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 6:49:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the adjustable gas blocks like the JP clamp-on, I notice they have 3 stout looking allen screws securing the clamp. My AR10's have factory clamp-on gas blocks with 2 screws which have been totally reliable...just not adjustable. However, the OEM Armalite blocks seem to be steel. I notice JP makes identical 3-screw adjustable blocks in steel and aluminum. Would the aluminum models offer the same sealing quality as the steel versions, seeing that they both have 3 clamp screws? I've been thinking about experimenting with an adjustable block on my carbine .308 AR10. I've never had an adjustable DI rifle. I don't think there would be any difference in sealing ability. Aluminum is softer, I suppose, theoretically, it might even seal better but I doubt there would be any practical difference. The gas is going up the big hole at the top, it's not going to be leaking out the infinitely smaller crevices that might exist, and probably don't exist. Just go easy on torquing the screws. Way easier to strip threads on aluminum versus steel. I am sure the instructions will specify. -Stooxie |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 9:29:55 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think there would be any difference in sealing ability. Aluminum is softer, I suppose, theoretically, it might even seal better but I doubt there would be any practical difference. The gas is going up the big hole at the top, it's not going to be leaking out the infinitely smaller crevices that might exist, and probably don't exist. Just go easy on torquing the screws. Way easier to strip threads on aluminum versus steel. I am sure the instructions will specify. -Stooxie Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
On the adjustable gas blocks like the JP clamp-on, I notice they have 3 stout looking allen screws securing the clamp. My AR10's have factory clamp-on gas blocks with 2 screws which have been totally reliable...just not adjustable. However, the OEM Armalite blocks seem to be steel. I notice JP makes identical 3-screw adjustable blocks in steel and aluminum. Would the aluminum models offer the same sealing quality as the steel versions, seeing that they both have 3 clamp screws? I've been thinking about experimenting with an adjustable block on my carbine .308 AR10. I've never had an adjustable DI rifle. I don't think there would be any difference in sealing ability. Aluminum is softer, I suppose, theoretically, it might even seal better but I doubt there would be any practical difference. The gas is going up the big hole at the top, it's not going to be leaking out the infinitely smaller crevices that might exist, and probably don't exist. Just go easy on torquing the screws. Way easier to strip threads on aluminum versus steel. I am sure the instructions will specify. -Stooxie Thanks. Yes, my 1/4" drive torque wrench is my friend. 
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Posted: 4/27/2015 9:35:57 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think there would be any difference in sealing ability. Aluminum is softer, I suppose, theoretically, it might even seal better but I doubt there would be any practical difference. The gas is going up the big hole at the top, it's not going to be leaking out the infinitely smaller crevices that might exist, and probably don't exist. Just go easy on torquing the screws. Way easier to strip threads on aluminum versus steel. I am sure the instructions will specify. -Stooxie Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
On the adjustable gas blocks like the JP clamp-on, I notice they have 3 stout looking allen screws securing the clamp. My AR10's have factory clamp-on gas blocks with 2 screws which have been totally reliable...just not adjustable. However, the OEM Armalite blocks seem to be steel. I notice JP makes identical 3-screw adjustable blocks in steel and aluminum. Would the aluminum models offer the same sealing quality as the steel versions, seeing that they both have 3 clamp screws? I've been thinking about experimenting with an adjustable block on my carbine .308 AR10. I've never had an adjustable DI rifle. I don't think there would be any difference in sealing ability. Aluminum is softer, I suppose, theoretically, it might even seal better but I doubt there would be any practical difference. The gas is going up the big hole at the top, it's not going to be leaking out the infinitely smaller crevices that might exist, and probably don't exist. Just go easy on torquing the screws. Way easier to strip threads on aluminum versus steel. I am sure the instructions will specify. -Stooxie Hot, high pressure gas will erode aluminum faster than steel. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 9:39:23 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hot, high pressure gas will erode aluminum faster than steel. I have yet to see an aluminum gas block fail in any way before the barrel it was mounted to was shot out. Obviously not counting installer error. The port on the block is larger than the port on the barrel, and usually roughly equal to the port in the gas tube. There isn't much gas erosion going on until the gas port in the barrel starts to erode. 
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:24:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have yet to see an aluminum gas block fail in any way before the barrel it was mounted to was shot out. Obviously not counting installer error. The port on the block is larger than the port on the barrel, and usually roughly equal to the port in the gas tube. There isn't much gas erosion going on until the gas port in the barrel starts to erode. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hot, high pressure gas will erode aluminum faster than steel. I have yet to see an aluminum gas block fail in any way before the barrel it was mounted to was shot out. Obviously not counting installer error. The port on the block is larger than the port on the barrel, and usually roughly equal to the port in the gas tube. There isn't much gas erosion going on until the gas port in the barrel starts to erode. This. That said, if the OP is looking to "reduce" recoil the mass of the overall system will provide more inertia to soak it up. Why bother with a lightweight gas block? You've actually got a bunch of great comments here-- shouldering the rifle properly, lighter bullet weight, etc. Smart folks. Step 1: Determine what about the recoil bothers you. Sometimes it's more the noise than anything else. Just SEEMS like a big bang-- cuz it is with a 308. It's a confidence thing, too. I'll readily admit that to this day I find it amazing that these guns function and don't blow up. So much energy contained in these things. Step 2: If the goal is just to smooth it out the impulses, use an adjustable gas block. That will knock off the sharp spikes of the bolt slamming back and (with some caveats) the bolt slamming forward so quickly. Often this is enough to make the recoil feel better and ameliorate #1. Step 3: If it's a physical pain thing, i.e. your shoulder is killing you after a range session, then try a broader or more padded stock that doesn't focus so much energy into one place. Step 4: If you really do want to "reduce" recoil then it's a matter of physics. Reducing the mass of the projectile is the way to go. There are several "lite" ammo choices. You can certainly add weight to the gun, too, and a heavy ass buffer will accomplish that along with some other side consequences (like slamming forward with a lot of force and... being heavy). Hope this helps. ETA: I just re-read that you have a muzzle break. Could be very much contributing to #1. -Stooxie |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:44:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryStep 1: Determine what about the recoil bothers you. Sometimes it's more the noise than anything else. Just SEEMS like a big bang-- cuz it is with a 308. It's a confidence thing, too. I'll readily admit that to this day I find it amazing that these guns function and don't blow up. So much energy contained in these things. Step 2: If the goal is just to smooth it out the impulses, use an adjustable gas block. That will knock off the sharp spikes of the bolt slamming back and (with some caveats) the bolt slamming forward so quickly. Often this is enough to make the recoil feel better and ameliorate #1. Step 3: If it's a physical pain thing, i.e. your shoulder is killing you after a range session, then try a broader or more padded stock that doesn't focus so much energy into one place. Step 4: If you really do want to "reduce" recoil then it's a matter of physics. Reducing the mass of the projectile is the way to go. There are several "lite" ammo choices. You can certainly add weight to the gun, too, and a heavy ass buffer will accomplish that along with some other side consequences (like slamming forward with a lot of force and... being heavy). Hope this helps. ETA: I just re-read that you have a muzzle break. Could be very much contributing to #1. -Stooxie Thanks everyone for the feedback! After putting on the muzzle brake, the recoil did get lower, very noticeable. The Noise maybe the biggest factor, now that you mention it. When i shoot my AR15, there is little to no recoil, (Muzzle Brake, H2 Buffer) I can keep the rifle on target, quickly and consistently, without blinking, I can rapid fire shots almost like a video game. The PA10 definitely is much louder, with a little more shoulder kick, and I just cannot keep my eyes open after the shot, I always blink. I'd like to get the rifle, or myself to that point, where i can rapid fire, and not blink between each shot. This may be a pipe dream, or maybe I simply have the wrong rifle to start with... The Adjustable Gas Block article mentioned earlier, made me a believer, this is the route I'll need to go. I'm not going to make drastic changes, but just toning down the gas pressure by a little will be a great start. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:54:44 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks everyone for the feedback! After putting on the muzzle brake, the recoil did get lower, very noticeable. The Noise maybe the biggest factor, now that you mention it. When i shoot my AR15, there is little to no recoil, (Muzzle Brake, H2 Buffer) I can keep the rifle on target, quickly and consistently, without blinking, I can rapid fire shots almost like a video game. The PA10 definitely is much louder, with a little more shoulder kick, and I just cannot keep my eyes open after the shot, I always blink. I'd like to get the rifle, or myself to that point, where i can rapid fire, and not blink between each shot. This may be a pipe dream, or maybe I simply have the wrong rifle to start with... The Adjustable Gas Block article mentioned earlier, made me a believer, this is the route I'll need to go. I'm not going to make drastic changes, but just toning down the gas pressure by a little will be a great start. Awesome, we're getting somewhere. A little group psychotherapy here at arfcom. This is probably where those much wiser than I would prescribe a single thing: practice. You've developed a nasty flinch and that is purely psychological. To some degree you may not believe that it's safe to fire this thing, hence the physical response. Again, understandable. It's a hell of a bang. It will absolutely be harder to control a 308, but it certainly can be done. I wouldn't hold yourself to the same standard as when firing 556 or to the pros that do this all day long. Also, pros very often use light hand loads, they aren't firing full power hunting ammo when knocking down steel targets at a mile a minute. -Stooxie |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 11:20:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks everyone for the feedback! After putting on the muzzle brake, the recoil did get lower, very noticeable. The Noise maybe the biggest factor, now that you mention it. When i shoot my AR15, there is little to no recoil, (Muzzle Brake, H2 Buffer) I can keep the rifle on target, quickly and consistently, without blinking, I can rapid fire shots almost like a video game. The PA10 definitely is much louder, with a little more shoulder kick, and I just cannot keep my eyes open after the shot, I always blink. I'd like to get the rifle, or myself to that point, where i can rapid fire, and not blink between each shot. This may be a pipe dream, or maybe I simply have the wrong rifle to start with... The Adjustable Gas Block article mentioned earlier, made me a believer, this is the route I'll need to go. I'm not going to make drastic changes, but just toning down the gas pressure by a little will be a great start. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Step 1: Determine what about the recoil bothers you. Sometimes it's more the noise than anything else. Just SEEMS like a big bang-- cuz it is with a 308. It's a confidence thing, too. I'll readily admit that to this day I find it amazing that these guns function and don't blow up. So much energy contained in these things. Step 2: If the goal is just to smooth it out the impulses, use an adjustable gas block. That will knock off the sharp spikes of the bolt slamming back and (with some caveats) the bolt slamming forward so quickly. Often this is enough to make the recoil feel better and ameliorate #1. Step 3: If it's a physical pain thing, i.e. your shoulder is killing you after a range session, then try a broader or more padded stock that doesn't focus so much energy into one place. Step 4: If you really do want to "reduce" recoil then it's a matter of physics. Reducing the mass of the projectile is the way to go. There are several "lite" ammo choices. You can certainly add weight to the gun, too, and a heavy ass buffer will accomplish that along with some other side consequences (like slamming forward with a lot of force and... being heavy). Hope this helps. ETA: I just re-read that you have a muzzle break. Could be very much contributing to #1. -Stooxie Thanks everyone for the feedback! After putting on the muzzle brake, the recoil did get lower, very noticeable. The Noise maybe the biggest factor, now that you mention it. When i shoot my AR15, there is little to no recoil, (Muzzle Brake, H2 Buffer) I can keep the rifle on target, quickly and consistently, without blinking, I can rapid fire shots almost like a video game. The PA10 definitely is much louder, with a little more shoulder kick, and I just cannot keep my eyes open after the shot, I always blink. I'd like to get the rifle, or myself to that point, where i can rapid fire, and not blink between each shot. This may be a pipe dream, or maybe I simply have the wrong rifle to start with... The Adjustable Gas Block article mentioned earlier, made me a believer, this is the route I'll need to go. I'm not going to make drastic changes, but just toning down the gas pressure by a little will be a great start. Rapid fire and stay on target at 100-200 yards = load it up to about 12# and load some 110 gr bullets like a 110 gr Vmax at about 2750 fps. Recoil = 7.3# without a muzzle brake. 20% MB let off = 5.8#. I used a load like that, but loaded a bit hotter to hunt deer with one year in a savage. Intention was 100% neck shots since it shot really tight. Dropped every deer I shot in their tracks. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 12:33:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Slash
adj gas block suppressor Hind sight and all but why didn't you get a rifle length? |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:25:04 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks everyone for the feedback! After putting on the muzzle brake, the recoil did get lower, very noticeable. The Noise maybe the biggest factor, now that you mention it. When i shoot my AR15, there is little to no recoil, (Muzzle Brake, H2 Buffer) I can keep the rifle on target, quickly and consistently, without blinking, I can rapid fire shots almost like a video game. The PA10 definitely is much louder, with a little more shoulder kick, and I just cannot keep my eyes open after the shot, I always blink. I'd like to get the rifle, or myself to that point, where i can rapid fire, and not blink between each shot. This may be a pipe dream, or maybe I simply have the wrong rifle to start with... The Adjustable Gas Block article mentioned earlier, made me a believer, this is the route I'll need to go. I'm not going to make drastic changes, but just toning down the gas pressure by a little will be a great start. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Step 1: Determine what about the recoil bothers you. Sometimes it's more the noise than anything else. Just SEEMS like a big bang-- cuz it is with a 308. It's a confidence thing, too. I'll readily admit that to this day I find it amazing that these guns function and don't blow up. So much energy contained in these things. Step 2: If the goal is just to smooth it out the impulses, use an adjustable gas block. That will knock off the sharp spikes of the bolt slamming back and (with some caveats) the bolt slamming forward so quickly. Often this is enough to make the recoil feel better and ameliorate #1. Step 3: If it's a physical pain thing, i.e. your shoulder is killing you after a range session, then try a broader or more padded stock that doesn't focus so much energy into one place. Step 4: If you really do want to "reduce" recoil then it's a matter of physics. Reducing the mass of the projectile is the way to go. There are several "lite" ammo choices. You can certainly add weight to the gun, too, and a heavy ass buffer will accomplish that along with some other side consequences (like slamming forward with a lot of force and... being heavy). Hope this helps. ETA: I just re-read that you have a muzzle break. Could be very much contributing to #1. -Stooxie Thanks everyone for the feedback! After putting on the muzzle brake, the recoil did get lower, very noticeable. The Noise maybe the biggest factor, now that you mention it. When i shoot my AR15, there is little to no recoil, (Muzzle Brake, H2 Buffer) I can keep the rifle on target, quickly and consistently, without blinking, I can rapid fire shots almost like a video game. The PA10 definitely is much louder, with a little more shoulder kick, and I just cannot keep my eyes open after the shot, I always blink. I'd like to get the rifle, or myself to that point, where i can rapid fire, and not blink between each shot. This may be a pipe dream, or maybe I simply have the wrong rifle to start with... The Adjustable Gas Block article mentioned earlier, made me a believer, this is the route I'll need to go. I'm not going to make drastic changes, but just toning down the gas pressure by a little will be a great start. LOL!...that article on adjustable gas blocks made a believer out of me too...or at least an experimenter in one. I've got a JP adjustable on its way right now, but not really for recoil. I just reconfigured one of my AR10's into a 16" carbine .308 with mid-length gas, and I don't think it has anymore recoil than the 20 incher...nice and soft. However, the cases are ejecting well forward compared to my other AR10 and AR15, which both do a nice 4-5 o'clock location. Never tried an adjustable GB, so this is something I wanted to try anyway. I kind of think this will also teach me a little more about how the gas system in these AR's really works. Oh...and the guy that posted that barrel cutaway and gas port pic...cool!
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:52:12 PM EDT
[#31]
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I have yet to see an aluminum gas block fail in any way before the barrel it was mounted to was shot out. Obviously not counting installer error. The port on the block is larger than the port on the barrel, and usually roughly equal to the port in the gas tube. There isn't much gas erosion going on until the gas port in the barrel starts to erode. In an adjustable gas port the the adjustable restriction will cause a increase in gas velocity at the orifice and an increase in erosion there. Is it a big deal, probably not, but a steel adjustable gas port will hold adjustment better. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 11:04:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Cross fit and testosterone.
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Posted: 4/27/2015 11:20:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In an adjustable gas port the the adjustable restriction will cause a increase in gas velocity at the orifice and an increase in erosion there. Is it a big deal, probably not, but a steel adjustable gas port will hold adjustment better. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have yet to see an aluminum gas block fail in any way before the barrel it was mounted to was shot out. Obviously not counting installer error. The port on the block is larger than the port on the barrel, and usually roughly equal to the port in the gas tube. There isn't much gas erosion going on until the gas port in the barrel starts to erode. In an adjustable gas port the the adjustable restriction will cause a increase in gas velocity at the orifice and an increase in erosion there. Is it a big deal, probably not, but a steel adjustable gas port will hold adjustment better. Wouldn't the possible erosion in the aluminum block be a good deal dependent on the quality and makeup of the aluminum? I mean, I have aluminum heads on high performance automotive and motorcycle engines, and when stressed under racing and other extreme conditions, the combustion chambers and exhaust ports stand up pretty darned well for quite a long time...barring some other catastrophic failure event. On holding adjustment, I notice this JP block I'm getting has what they say is a new set screw retention setup. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 12:06:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cross fit and testosterone. Neither of which is better than technique. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:05:03 AM EDT
[#35]
Aluminum gas blocks aren't all created equally. Some are robust, machined to tight tolerances, and thoroughly heat and surface for great longevity. Others, not so much.
Adjustable blocks come in different flavors too. I've seen some with stainless adjusters, some with carbon steel adjusters, and some with (flimsy-looking) aluminum adjusters. If it's just the block that's aluminum, then I would think erosion isn't as big an issue as with an all-aluminum adjustable block - depending on the adjustment system design, of course. One thing about aluminum compared to steel is that aluminum handles heat quite a bit differently. Heat is retained in steel a lot more than in aluminum, which might potentially make an aluminum gas block a Good Thing, or a Bad Thing, all depending on how the device is attached. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 10:51:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aluminum gas blocks aren't all created equally. Some are robust, machined to tight tolerances, and thoroughly heat and surface for great longevity. Others, not so much. Adjustable blocks come in different flavors too. I've seen some with stainless adjusters, some with carbon steel adjusters, and some with (flimsy-looking) aluminum adjusters. If it's just the block that's aluminum, then I would think erosion isn't as big an issue as with an all-aluminum adjustable block - depending on the adjustment system design, of course. One thing about aluminum compared to steel is that aluminum handles heat quite a bit differently. Heat is retained in steel a lot more than in aluminum, which might potentially make an aluminum gas block a Good Thing, or a Bad Thing, all depending on how the device is attached. Porter, this is the one thing that came to mind initially about the aluminum and steel combination for an aluminum gas block on a steel barrel. The two materials do heat up and cool down at different rates. However, just as I mentioned in my previous post, aluminum metallurgy in the correct selection allows aluminum cylinder heads to be mounted on a cast iron block in some of the most severe, high performance applications with excellent results. I tend to think that this is why JP uses a minimum of 3 bolts/screws in the gas block. I'd also bet JP uses a proper alloy in these blocks, and it seems quite apparent they are securing them in a robust manner. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:01:03 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Porter, this is the one thing that came to mind initially about the aluminum and steel combination for an aluminum gas block on a steel barrel. The two materials do heat up and cool down at different rates. However, just as I mentioned in my previous post, aluminum metallurgy in the correct selection allows aluminum cylinder heads to be mounted on a cast iron block in some of the most severe, high performance applications with excellent results. I tend to think that this is why JP uses a minimum of 3 bolts/screws in the gas block. I'd also bet JP uses a proper alloy in these blocks, and it seems quite apparent they are securing them in a robust manner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum gas blocks aren't all created equally. Some are robust, machined to tight tolerances, and thoroughly heat and surface for great longevity. Others, not so much. Adjustable blocks come in different flavors too. I've seen some with stainless adjusters, some with carbon steel adjusters, and some with (flimsy-looking) aluminum adjusters. If it's just the block that's aluminum, then I would think erosion isn't as big an issue as with an all-aluminum adjustable block - depending on the adjustment system design, of course. One thing about aluminum compared to steel is that aluminum handles heat quite a bit differently. Heat is retained in steel a lot more than in aluminum, which might potentially make an aluminum gas block a Good Thing, or a Bad Thing, all depending on how the device is attached. Porter, this is the one thing that came to mind initially about the aluminum and steel combination for an aluminum gas block on a steel barrel. The two materials do heat up and cool down at different rates. However, just as I mentioned in my previous post, aluminum metallurgy in the correct selection allows aluminum cylinder heads to be mounted on a cast iron block in some of the most severe, high performance applications with excellent results. I tend to think that this is why JP uses a minimum of 3 bolts/screws in the gas block. I'd also bet JP uses a proper alloy in these blocks, and it seems quite apparent they are securing them in a robust manner. Which comes down to trusting the manufacturer to build the gas block correctly with the right alloys and the right treatments. Going cheap gets you who knows what - and all of the aluminum blocks I've seen (albeit non-adjustable ones) have been "inexpensive." I don't know if there is a reliable aluminum gas block, adjustable or not, but I'll bet if they exist, they'll be on a par, price wise, with steel ones. |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 7:18:25 PM EDT
[#38]
My opinion...
Propellant gas erodes the steel in the gas port, we know this. I have seen steel gas cylinders in M240s eroded. If the gas is hotter than 350 F, and higher pressure than 200 psi, I'll keep inside a steel container, thank you. It doesn't add that much weight. Your mileage may vary. |
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