LOL!  So true. So true.  I made the mistake of stopping by one of the DNR-run local ranges here right before rifle season opened up.  Fudds and neckbeards galore had stormed the range, to the point that there was a waiting line.

Guys had their Chinese-made Caldwell rifle rest rigs, varying quality of rifles, and the basic scope set-up you describe.  Cabella's and Wal-mart $69-$129 scopes + Chicom rings will never hold up to a magnum recoil with 2 fasteners per ring, no Loc-tite, and hand-tightened scope bases.  Of course, everybody has to have a magnum, and a .270 Winchester is the minimum caliber acceptable across the line.  Gears and scope internals will never hold up at those price points.

Guys were sending their younger sons down to the pit to spot the impacts for them with cell phones, even on those gigantic shoot 'n see bullseye targets that are bigger than the target backers, because they are all over the place with shot placement.  Non-floated barrels, Remington roll the dice headspace, cheap scopes, and box ammo off the shelf from China mart is very predictable what will happen at distance.  Groups will be larger than an improved choke shotgun pattern, and I saw it target after target down the line.

Meanwhile, I'm cutting tight little clusters at 200yds with the little 16" Grendel, with group sizes ranging from 1.79" to 2.2" with factory Hornady.  Fudds gotta fudd.  I'm doing everything I can to change that with this generation of shooters, as well as the last, by providing training.  I'm currently working on setting up our District Shooting Committee with Boy Scouts, and one of my main priorities is to run some NRA Day at the Range and Winchester NRA shooting competitions.

Nope, I merely pointed out that In a "Technical" forum (as someone pointed out) that you should at least have a clue before you type (your data and terminology to be specific) .  I suggested you read more so you could post better information, and illustrated the way you make yourself look.  You were "flattered" about the way you make yourself look....  So I guess your personally insulting your self.

Lets use little words you are sure to understand.

You, and people like you, are a pox on this board.
You intentionally troll threads in the technical forums
interrupting technical discussions and driving people
from this forum. As this is your specific intent, to
troll technical discussions, I agree you should be banned.

I suspect it will only be a matter of time.

Wow... Just wow.... RAJA didn't start the negativity and I've never seen him post anything inaccurate or untrue.... Ever... And frankly he is very well informed so what possible reason could you have for this drivel? Must be a fan boy thing...

Fan here, I read your articles for years.
The more I shoot the Grendel the more it impresses me.
I'm seriously thinking about dumping my LR 308
It is accurate and reliable but not nearly as pleasant to shoot
But part of me likes that bigger slug so I'm at a conundrum

I have one intent, and one intent only.
To stop the freewheeling bashing of the 6.8 by proponents of the 6.5G.
Which happens incessantly on this board.
I would not have came into this thread had that not happened.
As well it happened on the first reply to the OP.

You will not find me jumping into a 6.5 thread at any time other than this.
Unless it is to ask a legitimate question to try and learn more about the particular thread.
You will also find me stopping the 6.5 bashing by others in any thread I start about the 6.8.

I also took a lot more bashing personally in this thread by types such as yourself.
That I could care less about.
That the 6.8 gets fair representation in this board I do care about.
There are some on this board that fein respecting others caliber choices whilst trying to cram their own down said members throats.
Therein lies the problem sir.

"Grandpa with his Tasco scope mounted on that $299 Walmart Mossberg 7mm with remington corelokts that he shoots 10 rounds a year, yeah, that's unethical."

Hopefully going forward, this changes. I saw many comments about how a ~500yd shot (which was a clean kill I might add) shouldn't be taken. I counter with "come out here during Elk season and open your ears". I'd argue that for many/most, a 100yd shot is unethical.

Very, very few hunters in this area, where 400+ yard shots are daily possibilities, actually know what their rifle and round is capable of at that distance. Ask any of them if they have actually put their chosen round across a chronograph and worked out the ballistics. You can tell they haven't by the 4-5 round staccato from the 300 Win Mags as people try and guess how "flat" their gun shoots at 550yds, sometimes using entire boxes of ammo at an animal on the opposite hillside.

If there is any positive side to this phenomena, you can pretty much guarantee that if you hear more than one shot in short order, the animal is at a longer range, and in no danger.

People who aren't certain they can take the shot, but do anyway, are the unethical ones. This is why I put very, very little credence into retained energy (or bullet construction)...most rely on blind luck, not shot placement. The only ones who need to worry about retained energy are the ones that can shoot.

You're not a moderator. I've seen you troll and disrupt technical discussions.
I have pointed out to you before when you were breaking forum rules and listed
the specific rules you were breaking.

Its just a matter of time now.

Wow....you guys, take this 6.5 vs 6.8 shit seriously! How is this even an argument, 6.8 has military and full industry support. 6.5 is more of a wildcat. Shoot what you love, and stop arguing.

+1.  Or just move up to the big boy guns.    This is like having an argument about whose Prius is the fastest.

Can someone point me to the block Yama_Raja button?

Oh cmon prius? Atleast upgrade it to Toyota Tacoma vs Nissan frontier.

I have love for both calibers, I just happened to build a Grendel 1st. I see the cartridges as competing in 2 separate arenas. The 6.5 with its short squat case is more of a distance cartridge hence why I built one for deer hunting. I practiced out to 500 yards at different elevations and different weather conditions. I have not built a 6.8 YET but I will. TO ME the 6.8 is a "Battle" round more akin to 223,762x39 etc.

The guy made a hell of a shot. Regardless of caliber.

Ha ha.  Ok, maybe.  I would agree with that...I don't see too many people doing a carbine class with 6.5 Grendel, but maybe I guess.  

That will change as word gets out about the Wolf 6.5 Grendel steel-case ammo selling from Alexander Arms for 36¢ round.

I had a couple bad experiences with Tula 308 steel case, but perhaps this is a different story.

Hopefully! And this is from Barnaul, not Tula.

How many 6.5 fit in a mag, and does it use standard AR mags?

Mags typically state 26rds I load 25. and they are not standard 223 mags.

Correct, and — like the 6.8 SPC — the 6.5 Grendel uses dedicated magazines.

Yes, Tula Cartridge Works had issues with their steel case .308s. I experienced it first hand in a FAL.
Luckily though the 6.5mm Grendel steel case ammo is being produced by a different and more
respected manufacturer in a different part of the country.

I've used my 16 inch carbine in training courses, with affordable ammunition, why not?

Nice deer.

Awesome caliber, awesome shot.  I fully support it.
 
I couldn't care less what a bunch unskilled fudds with rusty crap rifles that can't shoot worth a damn have to say about it.

The proof is in the pudding.  The animal was harvested cleanly.  He reeled it in from 1200 yards before making the shot.

/thread

Great shot Adam.
Your shooting skill matches your barrels quality and accuracy.

What is the advertised minimum velocity for expansion on that bullet?

At 500 yards, was the velocity above that minimum velocity defined by Hornady?

Perhaps the shot was a pass-thru because the bullet did not expand due to being below the minimum velocity to properly expand.

If velocity is above the minimum manufacturer's recommendation, then I say "nice shot".  If velocity below the advertised minimum, then I say risky and lucky shot.

That it was a pass-thru, does not really mean much.

THIS..... I'm not 100% sure but I believe minimum expansion velocity is 1750-1800fps and past 500yds I'm guessing velocity was around 1600fps(16" barrel on factory Hornady ammo.... If barrel was 24" velocity would still be under 1800 fps @ 500 yards) so that is probably why it was a pass through..this would be my major concern.

As if anyone who hunted with other cartridges thought of this real deeply. They work or they don't work, it appears this one worked.

Yep, there's a dead deer in that picture. Seems the bullet worked.

6.5G Prius


6.8SPC Prius

Figure 20in barrel for both, all things equal.
Whose Prius is faster that someone posted was a good line.

And yes he did make the shot, and the animal was harvested.
Those disclaimers on TV commercials, they would pertain here.
Hell of a shot by a hell of a shooter.

Nice shot... I have no issue with a person taking such a shot SO LONG AS they have acquired the skills necessary and the animal is in such a position a clean kill can be made... in other words no running or partially obscured game.

I'm a 6.8 SPC fan but really do want a 6.5... just because...

123gr Testing
We tested the 123gr SST pretty extensively for the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook Volume II, and included this data in a very detailed section on terminal ballistics, which included shooting various hunting projectiles across the velocity spectrum multiple times to see where they averaged out so hunters could get an idea of what kind of expansion, penetration, and weight retention to expect. This data was also checked against actual recovered projectiles from game, for the few cases where there were recoveries, and the SST presented just as it did in both mediums.

I really think it takes several years to get a solid baseline on what to expect from a bullet, especially as hunters put it to the test on various game across several seasons.  So far, the 123gr SST seems to be doing very well for its price point.  There have been complaints of it coming apart some at close range from longer barrels, but it has been very consistent for the most part on expansion and penetration.  A few have been recovered on the down side within the game hide, especially after oblique shots, but the animals went down quickly from the shot.  It has been used to DRT caribou at 275yds, and quickly put down caribou at 400yds with the kicken chicken routine after the shot.  It has been used to DRT hogs from 14.5" barrels, as well as 16", 18", and 20".  It has been used to take deer from close in out to 500yds before this 500yd shot.

As far as terminal ballistics goes, it expands down to 1800fps quite reliably.  If someone is trying to run this through a ballistics program, you'll need to account for the elevation in Montana where Adam took his shot.  Even with a reduced BC, from his 20" barrel, it still is staying past 1800fps out to 575yds, even when I reduce the muzzle velocity.

Chrono Data
When I chrono'd the 123gr SST factory load from a 20" AR740 Lilja barrel, it was 2602fps.  If we drop it down to 2550fps, it still is expanding, and he measured a 1" exit on the buck.  Also keep in mind that this was a pretty big boy, not a trophy for Montana, but not a runt for sure.  Nice 7 point buck.

Baro Pressure
A common mistake many new and old shooters alike make when first getting into ballistics programs is to not input barometric pressure data.  Even more important than temperature, you need to input your baro pressure.  I always look at the baro pressure when running long range shooting, and will frequently update it in the field during a hunt.  Bullets fly a lot farther up here at the elevations we see in the Rocky Mountain Region, or other high altitude areas around the globe.

The short story is that nowhere in Montana is going to see the default settings in your ballistic programs, with 29.92" of mercury for pressure. The lowest point in MT is where the Kootenai River flows through on the Western border, and that is 1820ft after the drop off at Kootenai Falls.  This shot was taken well away from that area, at a higher elevation.

We don't have elevations like that in UT or CO, and I can't find any places within 3hr drive from me that are below 4,000ft ASL.  Most of the mule deer here stay well above 5000ft ASL, and the only real medium game I see down at 4400 are coyotes (yeah right!) and antelope.  My 16" Grendel flies at 4400ft ASL like a 24" does at sea level, even if I handicap the G1 BC down into the high 4's, and leave the BC at .510 for the 24" at sea level.  That's how much of an effect baro pressure has in the real world.

I left everything but BC, speed, temp and a slight wind at default on purpose.
I used a temp that would have been likely during the recent period, I live in Montana.
I picked 4000ft because nowhere in Montana is at sea level, eastern Montana, western Montana, I don't know where the game was harvested..
Change the attitude to 6000ft, 8000ft the differences stay the same.
The largest portion of Montana is the eastern part of the state where 3000ft and below is common.
MT.Gov Mule Deer Range
Look down the page at the elevation profile, highest count at 2500 to 3000 ft.
Elevation profile
This kinda blows the mule deer elevation thing out of the water.
As well I had no idea what the temp, wind, altitude or weather was when he made the shot so an average works for the comparison.
It's a fair comparison and the differences between the cartridges at 500 yards is like splitting hairs.
The numbers I used to compare don't bias either caliber.
Hornady lists that load at 2580 from a 24in barrel, and 2350 for a 16. So 2450 for a 20in is spot on. But we don't know the temp at their test either do we.
Or the temp when you did your test or on the day he took the shot, that said Hornadys data is fair for comparison for both.
The animal wouldn't know the difference between the calibers.
That particular shooter could have made the shot with either.
However I fully expected you to question it so no problem.

You sure do get away with some stuff at high altitude that you can't otherwise.

Not muzzle velocity though. So, it's interesting to see instrumented velocity put up.

Anyway... moving on.

Most people's understanding of external ballistics is highly lacking.  You can see evidence of that in this very thread, even with access to modern ballistics computers in the palm of your hands.

We've been over the Hornady data already for 24" and 16" barrels, which simply doesn't make sense.  

Either way, I have a better handle on what speeds a 20" Grendel will produce, but in the end, it isn't a huge difference when looking at BC.  If a novice shooter/reloader is using sea level data for elevations that are even 2000-3000ft ASL, it isn't going to reflect the reality.

In this case, a 20" barrel spitting the 123gr SST at 2550fps, even down at 3000ft, with a reduced BC of .485, will still keep this bullet over 1800fps past 500yds.  My program is showing 1828fps at 500yds under those conditions.  Real world in this hunting example showed a 1" exit, with the Montana buck expired within close range from the shot.

From our extensive testing with the 123gr SST, it has demonstrated a consistent 1800fps expansion threshold, which is what Hornady was looking for with it.  For those that say questionable ethics, if a hunter can place a 123gr projectile at 1.65 Mach through the lungs of an animal, where is the argument that the shot is unethical?  I have close friends who have successfully hunted men professionally with M118/M118LR over multiple deployments, who bring home an elk every season using BTHP .308 bullets because they are at home with them, and don't want to deviate from a proven formula for them.  Are they unethical?  I can't argue with them.  They make perfect shots through the vitals, the elk go down, they recover them, dress them out, strap them to the horse, and come home.

When we worked with a very experienced Alaskan hunting guide and Grand Slam hunter on gathering data for real world hunting from someone who was able to watch tons of game killed with all sorts of calibers over a lifetime of professional hunting, he really stressed the importance of shot placement over anything else.  He doesn't put much importance into the expansion threshold/minimum impact velocity formula, especially when held up against shot placement.  The cartridge that opened up his eyes was the 6.5x55 Mauser, when he was a died in the wool Holland & Holland Magnum advocate as a minimum for Alaska.  The 6.5mm is what changed his mind, but it took some time for the reality to set in.

Funny to write all that for 50fps
The 120 or 123 SST will still get some degree of expansion even to 1750fps, so agreed it likely expanded a bit.
And it was a nice shot.
Can I get three paragraphs for my 3 short sentences?

Spot on you say?

My real world data says different.  I guess I'd better tell my 14.5" Saber barrel to slow down a little as I'm clocking it at 2440fps.  Oh and my 12.5" is only 50fps slower than a 16".  Both get a steady diet of factory 123 Hornady.

And ARP barrels and Bison barrels run faster than Hornadys test barrels in the 6.8 too.
In fact many barrels run different than what ammo manufactures use for test barrels which are I think more for pressure testing than speed.
That does not however negate them from being used as a basis for comparisons between the calibers.
Where else are you going to find unbiased data to compare?
So yes on this basis, it is spot on.

As a comparison in a fictitious world.  Bottom line is knowing what your self and your equipment is capable of in the real world.  Thats what counts.

For those wondering about muzzle velocities with the 6.5 Grendel, this is what is commonly seen real world, with Hornady 123gr factory ammo:


BBL Length  fps

12.5" 2280-2350
14.5" 2340-2440
16"  2375-2480
18"  2450-2550
20"  2500-2600
24"  2550-2650

Here's an old thread with a lot of different barrel length velocities and real world data for several factory loads:  http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=533217



My 16" has consistently delivered between 2450-2460fps with Hornady 123gr as well.  The 12.5" gun offers a lot of capability when you look at what it can do as well.  A 20" combined with 123gr SST or the 129gr ABLR will do way more than what you would expect when merely looking at the small cartridge/case.

Funny how you debate the 6.8 using factory data for it but then dispute factory for the 6.5.

Funny how that works isn't it?

What's NOT funny is that this guy is allowed to troll the supposed "tech forums" without any consequences.

Which guy are you speaking of?

Not as funny as the fact no one in this thread Ask about, or really cares about the 6.8SPC's muzzle velocity out of any barrel length to begin with.

Au contraire, mon ami. If you mention a 16" barrel, which obviously has a "6" in it, and if you mention an 18" barrel, which, of course, has an "8" in it, then you've introduced "6-8" into your discussion and it's perfectly fair game for 6.8 proponents to jump in and defend against the abuse you are obviously heaping upon their favorite cartridge. You obviously ASKED FOR IT and NEED to know 6.8 muzzle velocities in this thread about . . . uh . . . what was this thread about, again?

Unethical hunting?

This by a Grendel fan started it.
"Quoted:
Ha still waiting for a thread like this on the 6.8"
The first reply to the OP now edited by a Mod

Perhaps even the OP could be considered a troll in a tech forum because I done see anything technical about it just chest thumping really.
Wouldn't it have more place in the Outdoors section under deer hunting?
And certainly the first reply to it was a troll by RedFox1911.  

In this war of the Prius's as someone aptly put it more often the G fans seem to fire the first shot then complain about the battle.
We should just call a truce and put this one to rest IMHO.

Brother, I'm a 6.8 fan. It's my hunting cartridge of choice. But you've seriously got to learn to turn the other cheek. You, not RedFox1911, have turned this into ANOTHER 6.5 vs 6.8 debate thread.   A comment like RedFox1911's should have been ignored, and should not be used as an invitation to champion a cartridge that is outside the topic of conversation.  If you want a truce as you say in this post, then ignore asinine comments.

Both cartridges are established enough by now now that they should be secure from blatant trolling swaying someone from one or the other.