I wanted to see what my 16" 6.5 Grendel would do to a cinder block this weekend while I was out with my Scout Troop for a shooting/camping trip.

I used the Hornady factory 123gr SST, which is meant to rapidly expand while maintaining weight.  Distance was 50yds.

Before:




After:





I also got to compare impact on steel with my buddy's 26" .308 bolt gun pushing 168gr SMK's much faster than my 123gr SST's.  They sounded almost identical at 200yds, with slightly more bass tone range in favor of the 168gr SMK.  Recoil on the Grendel is half of the .308, and it was as easy to hit with it at distances out to 600yds compared to the 26" .308 Winchester bolt rifle.  Just more validation for what I had already come to know for myself years ago, which is why I got out of .308 Winchester.

Note: There is a major distinction to be made between a Concrete Masonry Unit (they have much less fly ash than an obsolete cinder block) and a CMU wall!

Thanks for the tips.  I just saw a piece of cinder block laying around, and thought it would be interesting to see what happened.

Here are some interesting videos StanC posted on the Grendel Forum, comparing 5.45x39, 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39, and 300 AAC:

Cinder Block Penetration tests 4 different AR Cartridges

Cool, would love to see what the Grendel can do to a car. I imagine it would punch through glass and bodywork fairly well though.

I'm not sure what bullet I used now.  It was either the 123gr SST, or 123gr Lapua Scenar.  I was shooting both, and thought it was the SST for some reason, while my buddy indicates it was the Scenar.

Either way, here is the video through the spotting scope at 50yds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ynSCv7auks

How much muzzle energy with the grendal?

From a 16" barrel at 2450fps, 123gr, it's 1639 ft-lbs.  For this test, at 50yds, it was ~1540 ft-lbs on target.

From an 18" barrel at 2500fps, 123gr is 1707 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

From a 20" barrel at 2550fps, 123gr is 1776 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

Using even under a max load of Hodgdon's CFE223 behind 123gr, I can easily get 2550fps from my 16" Grendel.  I think a max load of CFE223 puts me at 2572fps, but I am happy at 2500fps.

Do you think there is not much discernable difference with the .308 even at say 300 yards and closer?

I think from a 16 inch barrel 155g Amax are going 2600+fps with 2300+ft lbs at the muzzle.

Does the grendal ever take over the ft lbs on target? Compared to a 155g amax. I see the clear advantage of the 6.5 Creedmoor but besides recoil and weight savings does the Grendal beat the .308?

I like the idea of having my Scar 17 in 6.5 Creedmoor.

6.5 Grendel 123gr A-MAX CFE223 16" Barrel

       Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift

      (yards)     (fps)     (ft-lb)       (MILS)         (sec)         (MILS)

          0      2575        1811           0.00         0.0000         0.00

         50      2489        1692          -0.03         0.0592        -0.10

        100      2406        1580          -0.00         0.1205        -0.20

        150      2323        1474          -0.27         0.1840        -0.30

        200      2243        1374          -0.63         0.2497        -0.41

        250      2164        1278          -1.03         0.3178        -0.52

        300      2086        1188          -1.48         0.3884        -0.63

        350      2010        1104          -1.95         0.4616        -0.75

        400      1936        1024          -2.46         0.5376        -0.88

        450      1864         949          -2.99         0.6166        -1.00

        500      1793         878          -3.56         0.6986        -1.14

        550      1725         812          -4.16         0.7839        -1.27

        600      1658         751          -4.80         0.8726        -1.42

        650      1594         694          -5.47         0.9649        -1.56

        700      1532         641          -6.19         1.0608        -1.72

        750      1473         592          -6.94         1.1607        -1.87

        800      1416         548          -7.74         1.2646        -2.03

        850      1363         507          -8.59         1.3726        -2.20

        900      1312         470          -9.49         1.4848        -2.37

        950      1265         437         -10.44         1.6012        -2.55

       1000      1222         408         -11.44         1.7220        -2.72

.308 Winchester 16" AR10 155 A-MAX (Lapua brass, 45.6gr Varget, CCIBR2) 16 ave vel 2563 ES 10

       Range    Velocity    Energy     Trajectory         TOF          Drift

      (yards)     (fps)     (ft-lb)       (MILS)         (sec)         (MILS)

          0      2563        2261           0.00         0.0000         0.00

         50      2463        2088          -0.02         0.0597        -0.12

        100      2366        1926           0.00         0.1218        -0.24

        150      2270        1774          -0.28         0.1866        -0.36

        200      2177        1631          -0.66         0.2540        -0.49

        250      2086        1498          -1.09         0.3244        -0.62

        300      1997        1373          -1.56         0.3979        -0.76

        350      1911        1257          -2.07         0.4747        -0.91

        400      1827        1149          -2.61         0.5549        -1.06

        450      1746        1049          -3.20         0.6389        -1.22

        500      1667         957          -3.83         0.7269        -1.39

        550      1592         872          -4.50         0.8189        -1.56

        600      1520         795          -5.22         0.9154        -1.74

        650      1451         724          -5.99         1.0164        -1.92

        700      1386         661          -6.81         1.1222        -2.12

        750      1326         605          -7.69         1.2329        -2.32

        800      1270         555          -8.63         1.3485        -2.52

        850      1219         511          -9.64         1.4692        -2.73

        900      1172         473         -10.72         1.5947        -2.94

        950      1132         441         -11.86         1.7251        -3.16

       1000      1096         413         -13.09         1.8599        -3.37

From the shooter's perspective, there is not enough perceived difference for me at least between the two, even at 200yds when comparing the 168gr SMK to the 123gr 6.5mm.

That was with my buddy shooting his 26" bolt gun .308 vs. my 16" 6.5 Grendel AR15.  When he shot at 200yds just to confirm he was on, the impact on steel sounded just like my Grendel at first.  I had him shoot again, and I could barely discern a little bit more bass tone range of the impact with the 168gr SMK.

Wind drift and trajectory will be in the 6.5mm's favor from the start against the .308 155gr A-MAX (.435 G1 BC)

With a warm handload of Varget under the 155gr A-MAX from a 16" barrel, you're in the mid 2500's.

Energy for 123gr A-MAX Grendel compared to 155gr A-MAX .308 on target is:

Yds Energy % Grendel  vs. 308 (123gr A-MAX vs. 155gr A-MAX)

Muzzle: 81%  1811 vs. 2261 ft-lbs

100yds: 82%    1580 vs. 1926

200yds: 84%    1374 vs. 1631

300yds  87%    1188 vs. 1373

400yds  89%    1024 vs. 1149

500yds  92%    878 vs.   957

600yds  94%    751 vs.   795

700yds  97%    641 vs.   661

800yds  99%    548 vs.   555

900yds  99%    470 vs.   473

And you do that with 10,000psi less chamber pressure, 14gr less powder, 40-60% of the recoil, fits in an AR15, all the factory ammo is actually designed to work in a gas gun, and match Hornady 123gr A-MAX is several dollars cheaper than steel jacketed 147gr 7.62 NATO FMJ at Wal Mart.

We can do the same comparison with the 175gr SMK vs. the 123gr Scenar, and we see a similar set of data.  At 600yds, the Grendel has 85% of the energy of the .308 in that comparison.  You start to see really quick why I dropped .308 altogether.  There are just way too many cons for minor % gains at distances where both cartridges have plenty of power, and are within 15% of each other at the distances that matter more to me.  It's just not worth it when you look at the 2 side-by-side.

how about a 190gr ABLR

Pretty impressive . I wish they had more options and widespread availability for the 6.5s. I have seen creedmoor at a few places locally but in a dozen plus I don't think I have seen grendal once. I know the internet which is where I get most of my ammo anyway. It is nice to have it available local at almost any store that carries ammo.

Do they make a high quality factory chromelined 6.5 barrel or Nitrided?

Also what is the cheapest ammo? Something to shoot for fun or let friends shoot and not have to pay $1 a round.

If you have your eyes on 6.5C, I wouldn't ignore 7mm -08 and .260 Rem/.260 Ackley Improved. Big fan of 7mm. Availability for ammo should be better, but for barrels/parts, not sure.

There are at least 31 factory loads for 6.5 Grendel, and it is quite affordable, even match loads.  6.5 Grendel Ammoseek

I see it on the shelves at Cabella's and other LGS.

There are Saber Defense chrome lined barrels out there, but Alexander Arms has introduced nitrided barreled uppers.

There is steel case as well, which is $7.99/box, and also is a lethal hunting load on hogs.

Between all those cartridges, 6.5 Grendel is the only one specifically meant to work in a gas operated firearm.

6.5CM, 7mm-08, and .260 Remington all require an AR10 action if we are talking gas guns (I've owned 2 different .260 Rem AR10's, still have my GAP .260 Rem.)

Ammo availability is actually limited to non-existent in the .308-based cases if we are talking gas guns.  6.5CM and .260 Rem. factory ammo will typically crater, pierce, or blow primers in AR10's because the factory ammo was really developed with bolt guns in mind.  I used to recommend to people who were not interested in hand loading to choose 6.5CM over .260 Rem. because of factory ammo availability, but what I have seen since then is no real compatibility with factory ammo and gas guns.  As a result, my .260 Rem. stays home a lot, and the Grendel goes out every range trip.

Only problem with that comparison is that you ran the 190gr .308 ABLR at 2600fps, which means we are talking about a 24" bolt gun with a hand load of W760 or 2000-MR.

I like to compare gas guns to gas guns.  If we are shooting 190's from the .308, pressure curve with the slow burning powders is going to limit the type of barrel you are using, gas port location, dwell time, and gas port diameters playing a big role in what you can or can't do.

Both 123gr SST and 129gr ABLR are factory loads ready to go for the 6.5 Grendel, that actually work from a gas operated, lightweight AR15, at the speeds listed.

However, the 123gr factory SST load is listed as 2620fps on the box for a 24", even though Hornady's site lists 2580fps for some reason.  My 16" clocks them at 2450fps.  2550fps hand loads are still 100fps away from predictable velocity departure for me from 16" with 123gr.

6:00-7:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqXE8nq3io

I find most of these types of comparisons .  they mean little in the real world. No matter what Calliber you choose you are going to have two or three other calliber/cartridge choices on either side of the ONE you picked that have exterior Balistics so close to each other that it makes no fricken difference what so ever. you will learn the drop for whatever calliber/cartridge you picked and go shooting/hunting..?
NO.... 6.5, 6.8, does not do anything better ballistically than you can accomplish with .308. In today's world there are so many choices of bullets, powders etc that .308 can be load d up or down to accomplish darn near anything one would need.
IDK..if you are queer for reloading and that's Your thing...fine.just don't sell yourself that anyone of them is magic.

But...you can have better exterior Balistics than .223. Unless you are hunting, who cares ? Every single calliber/cartridge choice has a limit. Your not going to war. If you were, you would be carrying .223, .308, as a general purpose go to round. Why...because it is already accepted and abundant and it covers exterior balistics for every thing in between.
Wildcat Callibers ... A solution to a non existent problem.

Every cartridge that was avaible 30-40 years ago more than covers every single Terminal Balistic range needed. I fail to see the reasoning behind adding 6.8, 6.5, 300blk, etc.. BTW, I have two of those callibers !

In the real world, I have to carry the gun around, manage it, and would like to be able to buy factory ammo for it rather than have to hand load if I don't want to.

In the real world, I shoot gas guns more than I ever will bolt guns.  I like a cartridge that has factory ammo support that is meant to work in a gas gun.

Much of the .308 ammo does not work well in a gas gun, and it takes some know how to build a proper AR10.  I always ended up hand-loading for my .308 AR10's, other than the Armalite, which got a diet of FGMM.

If I get performance that is nipping the heels of the .308 in energy, while beating it for trajectory and wind drift, with factory ammo, shot from a lightweight little AR15, bye bye .308 Win. for me, especially with 6.5 Grendel ammo prices, with half the recoil for follow-up shots and smaller shooters to enjoy.

And the 6.5 Grendel still perforates cinder blocks rather nicely, from a 16" AR15 at 50yds.  Good to know.

Well, you're no fun.

6.5 Grendel does a great job maximizing the potential of the standard AR15 platform so you can use the bazillions of aftermarket accessories and parts out there to customize a lightweight gun, benchrest rig, hunting setup, or whatever. Aside from the barrel, bolt, and magazine, everything is AR15 standard so you don't have to play in the very non-standardized world of .308ARs.

Some people focus on the cartridge and are fine with whatever guns shoot it. Some focus on the gun and try to find a cartridge that maximizes that gun. Both are fine, but us Grendel guys fall into the latter category, for lots of reasons.