The other receiver design that is best-placed to survive the GII market shock is the Colt 901.  The reason is that Colt used a shorter BCG in that rifle, but they will need an updated monolithic handguard system that is put on a major diet from the quad rail buffet largesse.

They don't need to make any major changes to their operating system, so they are in a very good position to pull through this while everyone else scrambles to respond to it.

Notice how short the rear of the receiver is with the Colt 901:



Compared with GII:

I don't recall equating quality with weight at any point in this thread.

I'm well aware of Freedom Groups reputation.  I've had issues with a new Remington 700 5R that came out of the box with no rifiling in the muzzle.  I know they tradhed the quality at Marlin.  I do have an open mind though.  I wouldn't dismiss a new Ford Mustang because Ford built some shitty cars like the Mustang II in the past.  I wouldn't turn down a new Camaro because Chevy turned out some shoddy cars in the past either.

The quality of the GII is much better than some of you are willing to believe.  

I'm not going to even respond to your insuation that I'm somehow less of a man because I prefer to hunt and compete with a lighter rifle.

Weight is an issue for some of us, even those of us who are in good to excellent shape.  In competitive action shooting or hunting, we like lightweight rifles. Down in Florida, where the oxygen is o'plenty, performance levels are totally different than where I live up in the Rockies.  I can't find many places lower than 4400ft in my region, unless I go way south.

The GII isn't a design that just shaves weight off the LR308 line.  It's a totally different rifle on the inside and out.  The receiver quality and mate up is as good as what I have seen from LMT, but the ergo's and design of the receivers is better in many ways, including the generously funneled mag well, guard around the mag release (this was always something that bothered me with the SR25), lowering of the receiver height, placement of the mass above and close to your hand, and the flared portion around the barrel extension tunnel.

The BCG is a totally new design, and is the best improvement of the Stoner DI system since 1957, in my view.  I think Stoner, Jim Sullivan, and Robert Freemont all would wish they had thought of it, to be honest.  It takes away the ability of a low-paid assembler to louse up a gas key install.  There is no way to get it wrong, no torque value, just a roll pin after a very tight fit of the tube into the tower.

The bolt, extension, and steel feed ramp offer something the other guns can't, especially considering some of the new ammunition with steel tips like the 7.62 NATO EPR, which trashes existing guns. When I looked over the GII at SHOT, I got the sense that once someone in the military who has been lugging around SR25's, M110's, and MWS's feels this, they are going to start demanding it.  Other phrases that went through my mind were "SCAR killer".

If I can get the same performance from a better balanced rifle, I wouldn't attribute that to reality TV shows or a need for my wife to carry it for me.  It simply boils down to an appreciation for firearms that have better human engineering when looking at how they interface with us.  There is no comparison here, the GII has them all beat in that regard, and is a new design worth looking at from a clean slate, not from any coloring from the old era DPMS when it was owned and managed by a totally different culture.

somehting in 6mm???  Seems liek the logical conclusion if you are looking for the ultimate flat shooter AR pattern autoloader.  

yeah, the fucking foward assist, at best dead weight, at worst a kaboom facililitator.  

The G2 would make a sweet host for a 30, 33, or 38 caliber 308 case SBR/pistol brown bear slayer, if you live out that way.

on the trail, ounces equals pounds.  pounds equals...tons

also, forward weight and just weight makes something point slow.

also, adding a suppressor really makes it bad if its alread a pig on a stick.

interdesting.  yeah, the'll really have to put it on a diet.

WTF were they thinking whe they shipped that thing w/ a full quad rail?  Seriously, how did no one infolved suggest that they might shoudl make a modern handguard.  fixed four rail hanguard are dildos, almost as bad as the forward assist.

I laughed out loud when I hear that colt was selling a 7.62x39 version of the 901 to Yemini gov that weigs over pounds.

I don't really 'alot of dpms bashing' here at all.  What I see is people trying to ascertain what makes this a game changer.  Weight does not make it a game changer and many do haul their rifles in country and find the weight of modern semi 308s fine.  Every dpms I've ever owned or shot was a laser but the rest of the gun I can I hit on.  I merely want to know how 2lbs makes it a game changer because that loss of weight will be felt in recoil and follow up shooting.

Now onto reliability as that is what matters most.  I want to see dpms have the track record of the mws.  I want to see accuracy, reliability, the ability to go from short barrel to precision barrel (if I buy a mws, I absolutely am buying a 20" SS barrel as well as I get 2 rifles for the price of 3ish k apparently) and I want to see a consistent record of users with NO complaints before I proclaim anything a game changer

I don't that is unreasonable here

Yup.  I guess they didn't work out making a US 901 compatible AK magwell adaptor, but that would have been great. Colt 901 7.62x39:

totally agree!

totally disagree on the Colt 308 however, reviews are awful and people who own them have not been too keen on the compliments

Huh?  With a conventional barrel extension there is nothing to trash.  The tip of the projectile never touches anything other than the feed ramps built into the barrel extension.  And all this is assuming civilians will be shooting ammunition which they'll never see.  The GII  might be a fine rifle, but I think you're buying into their marketing a bit too much.

I don't buy into marketing.  I look at the ground truth and then watch for a while.

The GII bolt and extension are smaller in diameter than any other AR10, therefore they can make a lower profile upper.  The steel feed ramp insert is critical to that.  Marketing would be making claims based on the product.  I made the conclusions myself, without them making claims.  I think the design has military potential, while they never mentioned a thing about it.

I understand your rational,  but I don't agree that it's analogous with DPMS.  While Chevy and Ford have put some lemons, they've also both had their moments of engineering glory and the production of excellent products.  I don't believe the same can be said about DPMS until the GII came out.

The weight comment was not directed towards you (or any one specific individual) as you made no reference to weight anyway, but I apologize for not making that more obvious.
.

I agree that the design changes are extremely innovative, and it sounds like the execution is fantastic, but the storied history of the manufacture leaves me extremely skeptical.  Honestly, we're all gun people here, is anyone really rooting against DPMS on this?  I know I'm not, I hope the GII is their new coming, and that the design transforms the 308 AR industry.

That said, when it's been vetted by the many, and found worthy, I'll give credit where credit is due.  I hardly see how that's asking too much.  Im starting to think it comes down to a buying philosophy more than anything.  For known quality, and a long history of it, is what ultimately swayed my decision to buy the LMT product.

Thanks. That's the sort of info I need. I'm rare in ARFCOM in that I'm not afraid to admit my ignorance. Educate me. I'm buying another 308 AR to join my AR10, M1A, and FAL. I'm just sorting out what next.

I was looking at that but a muzzle break and noise is a problem. My Armalite AR 10 has a muzzle break and I hate it.

The local gun store has the Colt in stock. What's the advantage.

I'd skip it.  The only appeal I see to it is the fact that if you F1 and SBR it, you can have an SBR'ed 7.62 and 5.56 with the same receiver.  Otherwise, it's sort of gimmicky.  That and too many reports of spotty accuracy or function.  JMHO.....

That's what we are here to do.  Give opinions and reviews of products.  We are all aware of the companies history and reputation.  I don't know if I'm "worthy", but I I've owned a 308 AR since Armalite first came out with the AR10.  I've owned a couple Armalite AR10s, a DPMS that I built using all the JP parts that were available at the time, a Mega MA-10, the LMT and the GII I still have.  I've competed in Heavy Optics division of 3-gun with a RRA 308, a JP 308, and a Larue Predator 308 that belonged to friends and family.  I've shot Knights 308s as well.  I shot an AR15 for the first time in 1981, and have owned more than I can remember and havebeen issued several during 12 years of military service. I've been hunting, competing and tinkering with ARs for more than 20 years.

That's an impressive list of experience, but I was referring to the worthiness of the rifle, not the reviewer.

Test? I have a feeling that the DPMS team that came up with the G2 started with a standard AR and stretched to accommodate the 308. Then they built it and shot it until it broke. Then they found ways to fix what broke and repeated until they came up with a reliable design.... So things like the machined Carrier key and the metal feed ramp all came about due to the lack of beef in the receivers that caused weaknesses found during testing... Just MHO...

possible

The way I look at DPMS stuff is that it is reasonably solid, yet affordable stuff that allows you to get started for a decent price. You can pick up anything other than the most loaded DPMS 308 for well under $1500. And for that $1500, you get a complete rifle you can shoot. It allows you to get started. After shooting for a while, you'll decide what you like and what you don't like. What you want and what you don't want. If you have well under $1500 invested, you'll have money left to buy what you like and what you want, to replace what you don't like and don't want. At that price, you can afford to change a lot of parts to make the rifle suit you personally. In my case, I'll buy a $1200 Gen I Lite Hunter, or a $1400 Gen II Lite Hunter. I expect either will have a plain aluminum gas block. I will replace that with a steel gas block with a top rail that matches the receiver, in order to mount a pair of Troy flip up sights. Then I'll shoot it a fair amount. I may find I don't like the trigger. If so, I'll buy a Geissele trigger. If not, I'll leave it alone. I expect to have a few things about either rifle that do not exactly suit me. At $1400 or less, I can well afford upgrades that suit me personally, close to exactly.

Look at it another way. A DPMS is like a solid base model car that you can buy for a good price. Then you can buy a lot of bolt on parts to make it a nice hot rod that you can call your own. You would not do that with a fully optioned expensive sports car.

I have a DPMS 308 Recon and have fired 150 to 180 gr ammo without a problem. I fail to understand all the drama.

It's not hard to understand. Some people thing the GII is the best .308 AR on the market. Closer to the truth is the fact that they're probably the best budget .308 AR in the lower price range.

Your description of how the G2 was developed and marketed is in direct contrast to how Colt handled their 901 rollout. It's why I never got a 901 because they took so long to get to market. The differences could be used in a business/marketing course.

But now that I have a G2 Hunter I'll not even consider a 901, no way, no how.

BTW thanks for your articulate writing.

Nope.  This is the work of a modern and professional design and engineering team.  You also have to take into consideration all the knowledge they would have brought to the table with the 30RAR project, since there was a bit of engineering involved in making the 30RAR R-15 and AR15's under the Remington and DPMS brand names.

The forged bolt carrier with integral tower addresses both manufacturing and ease of assembly, as well as maintaining a gas seal that is superior to the band aid we have come to know as the carrier key (which was not an original Stoner design on the AR10.  Both Jim Sullivan and the Dutch claim credit for designing the carrier key in the late 1950's.)

The testing process you describe is something more common to amateurs and backyard tinkering, not an engineering team that works for a new era in firearms consortiums. Everything about the design of the GII reeks of a very professional team of engineers, who are willing and capable of designing outside of the box, rather than applying more band aids with new packaging.

There are a lot of easily overlooked details with the GII, but the steel feed ramp insert isn't one of them.  They focused on it at SHOT as something important to being able to lower the height of the upper receiver, since they needed the ability to work with existing mags, through a slightly narrower barrel extension than traditional AR10's.  There are no inherent weakness in the AR15 or AR10 receiver designs that would break during live fire testing.

All the design details that I can see point to an electronic 3D modeling approach before anything was cut or prototyped.  With modern programs like SolidWorks Pro, they can model fit and function rather easily.  It would be a horribly mismanaged design approach to go about it in the way you describe.

Time will tell if it's a "very awesome design". When you cut away and lighten guns things can add up to trouble over time.

I'll carry the extra weight of my RRA LAR-8 Predator with it's amazing barrel, trigger, and accuracy over any Gll gun. My gun shoots .5" groups all day long with hunting ammo, shoots 30yr old British surplus ammo into 1.5" groups as fast as you can aim 20rounds, and will even feed 170gr FLAT POINT Bullet handloads without a hiccup.

Nice groups on the LAR-8.  You didn't state at what range that is.

You also may be fine with carrying the extra weight down at sea level in your region, but some of us hunt 7,000-11,000 ft above sea level.  I can understand how some people who have never hiked at these altitudes might think it's just a concept, but your first few steps up the mountain once you disembark from your vehicle will let you know really quick that you're in a different environment, with a lot less oxygen in the air.

Heavy rifles don't do so well in that regard, and for those that just gut-check it, they are smoked when it comes time to make a shot, especially on chance contact with an opportunity of a lifetime.

The BAR-10/LAR-8 was a nice piece of innovation at the end of the Clinton AWB, but its receivers and BCG are beastly, even for the already 1990's era AR10 receiver designs, which are considerably longer than the original AR10's from the 1950's.  

Rock River needs to wipe the slate clean on this design, adapt to the trends in what hunters and competitive action shooters are demanding (lightweight, well balanced), and regain some footing in this growing market. Throwing a pencil barrel on existing LAR-8 receivers isn't going to do that.

DPMS responded to trends in the market, and I'm not seeing any sacrifices of strength in the critical areas with the GII.  In fact, they made them stronger with by using better bolt and barrel extension geometry, akin to the Professional Ordnance Carbon 15 bolt/extension design with radial lugs.

Is one extra pound going to make that much difference at any elevation? How did any hunter of yesteryear ever survive carrying those 10pound rifles all over the planet and up those Mountains?

Those groups are shot at 100yds when the gun was basically new.

The barrel is a 20" heavier contour and is cryogenically treated, air gauged,  and factory lapped. damn near impossible to get it to copper foul.

A lot of the hunters of yesteryear relied on horses, and many still do today up in the Rockies.  It can be done with a heavier gun, but those of us who enjoy stalking and pursuing a highly adept animal who knows the terrain better than we ever will are better served with lightweight guns.

A lot of elk have been killed with a .30-30 at close range for that reason.  I would prefer to stack the deck in my favor with what the current state of technology has to offer, just like many men did over 100 years ago with the Remington Model 8:

I used to hunt with a Remington model 81 in 35 Remington, it was an accurate reliable weapon. Love the old ads.

Shot a little Whitetail today with the G2.

Congrats!  ^^^^^^  

What bullet did you use, and was it DRT, or did he run for it?  Distance?  Beautiful State up there.  I used to live there, Camden, and some place inland with no name.  It's very much like Finland in geography and climate to some extent.

We've talked about it before here, but I think it's worth repeating:

Freedom Group really would be well advised to consider the GII in the Remington line, in different hunting calibers, with a reprint of that old advertisement, only with an AR10 in the Cowboy's hands at the ready, in some bear-slayer chambering as one of the factory options.

There appear to have been plans to introduce a Remington GII this year, but it was delayed or abandoned.

Thank you!  Actually, I used a 168 SMK...I had some Winchester 150 grain (Ballistic Silvertip) I tried yesterday and it shot terribly so I decided to use some 168 SMK match loads that my buddy calls "Camp Perry Match".  I have no idea where he got it, but he has a lot of it, and it shoots very similarly to FGMM out of my Remington 700.  65 yard shot...it ran about 100 yards.  No blood for about 30 feet and then it started pouring out.

I'm in the Bangor area so about 50 miles from Camden.  From what I have seen of Finland in pictures, and some dirt bike races I have watched video of from there, I would have to agree.  Hope to get over there some day.

You have a point there.  My group of older hunting partners is pretty put off by the rifle...I wouldn't go for a Remington model myself, but one setup that way would have way more of a chance with the more traditional hunting rifle types.

I hope you were wearing a good pair of ear muffs or plugs with that gun. I can't imagine shooting any gun in the hunting fields and woods with a muzzlebrake on it.

Nice fat little buck. Hope he makes good eating.

If you reload, or your buddy will do it for you, try some 150 or 165gr SST handloads over 4064, Rel-15, or win 748. Sierra makes a 165gr HPBT Gameking that is a tough bullet and may shoot the same as the 168. I'm not too sure I want to rely on match bullets putting the critters down. They tend to do unpredictable things to flesh and bone.

Thanks.  Yes, I had my electronic muffs on.  They work ok for sitting, not sure I would use for walking.  

I had that Winchester stuff but didn't try it until it was too late to test with anything else when I found that it was grouping badly for me.  I felt better about a well placed shot with the wrong bullet rather than a miss.  I'm not a reloader, but I should probably try the 165 Gameking Federal factory load to see what that does.  Only thing I don't like about those is they get deformed when I have to keep loading and unloading for hunting.

I would also look at the 150gr GMX from Hornady.  The 165gr GMX and SST are others to consider.  SST's are a lot more affordable.

Don't shoot any of the factory Superformance ammo in the gas gun.

Yes, I figured.  Way too hot for a gas gun.

I can see why I stick with a 308...even for an extremely popular caliber, there is only one factory load with a GMX bullet that would be ok my gun that I can see.

Hornady Full Boar

I personally like this model for a general purpose high power rifle for most North American game...My caliber choice would be either
the .260 Remington or 7mm-08, either would get the job done with less recoil and with better BC's pills than the .308 Winchester.

This is the newer A model which accepts the SR-25/LR-308 style Pmags with the quality reputation of the Armalite brand label.

Good Luck.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=A10TBNF&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=a1bbbf86-b2ed-495f-be70-47ca6b86de76

Fired a 5 shot group with Superformance 165 SST. It recoiled noticeably more than Rem 150 CoreLokt or Fed 168 GM. Accuracy wasn't to write home about at 2.5".

Boy, this thread sure got long in a hurry!

If I was torn between a few rifles, I'd handle every single one of them, and work them extensively. I have zero doubt the more expensive rifles are more expensive because there is more time and labor into them, along with "better" parts. There are shortcomings/mistakes in the GII (at least the one I have extensively handled) that I would personally attribute to large scale production/minimal time spent on QC, but I'd have to have an LMT in my hands to say that they are all exclusive to the GII, and I'd have to try another couple GII's, especially the "version 2.0" GII's, to determine if what I didn't like on that one is inherent, and/or that the shortcomings were worked out on the later ones. For all I know an LMT might not have the problems I saw with the GII, but I might be able to find other things I dislike about one. I don't own one, haven't held one, so I can't say that with certainty.

I'd like to add that while weight isn't considered a factor by some, one only need look at the extremely large number of offerings of ~6lb "hunting" bolt guns that are out there by pretty much every manufacturer, to see that weight IS a big deal to many.  It wasn't but a few years back that an 8lb bolt rifle was the norm. Not going to comment on what kind of person wants to shoot a 6lb 300 Win Mag enough to be proficient with it, but that's a different topic. :)

Shit . . . I just bought a R25 in 308. Now there is a lighter AR10 for hunting. Go figure.