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Posted: 8/30/2014 12:53:04 PM EDT
By the numbers, a 220gr subsonic round still has 400 ft/lbs of energy and around 130" of drop at 300yds.  In terms of shooting difficulty, that is up there; but not outside what most long range precision shooters deal with in terms of drop and wind and still more energy than most .45ACP loads at that range.  

On the other hand, it seems .300 subsonic is unforgiving of ranging errors.  At 225yds, a ranging error of only 25yds will put you 15"-18" off target.  On a nice, newly mown range with wind flags blowing, distances marked accurately and a bright, motionless contrasting target, a 300yd shot may not be all that difficult from a stable position with the right gear; but could you ever reliably make a head shot on a hog grazing in a field at 300yds?

I'm just curious what opinions are on the maximum practical range of .300 BLK is given excellent conditions in shooter training and equipment?
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 3:01:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Hi -

You lost me on your original post, at one point you seem as though your referring to energy of the round at a distance but then you talk about drop and wind flags and range setup.

So when you ask for a practical effective range, pick one:

To hunt or To punch paper?

If it is hunting I would say your practical effective range is specific to the bullet being used, what is the spec from the factory on velocity needed for it to perform?  I would say based on the bullets available and tests I have seen that 100 yards is the max distance.

But what are you hunting?

Racoon, coyote, deer, big deer, pigs....  This changes the range of effective use as well.

I think on average you'll find that 100 yards is max for animals larger that racoons if you like the animals to die quickly and not have to track them all over creation or rely on buzzards to lead you to them the next day.

HTXH
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 3:11:10 PM EDT
[#2]
I think a more important question is what subsonic bullet to use.  Most guys I have talked to have had  experiences with no expansion and clean pass through with not that great performance on game with subsonic loads.  I wonder how the 208 grain amax would perform at 1050 fps? it the most fragile heavyweight bullet I can think of.  Trajectory would certainly be a challenge.
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 3:28:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Well, at subsonic speeds, I am assuming any 7.62 diameter bullet is essentially going to act like a pistol caliber FMJ when it hits - no fragmenting or expansion, maybe tumbling if you are lucky.  So the practical range is going to be the max effective range you can make the kind of hits needed to kill a hog with pistol caliber FMJ.

As far as quickly, tracking, etc.  I guess that is part of the debate; but I'm not expecting instant stops on hogs with subsonic 7.62 at any distance.
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 4:52:58 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Well, at subsonic speeds, I am assuming any 7.62 diameter bullet is essentially going to act like a pistol caliber FMJ when it hits - no fragmenting or expansion, maybe tumbling if you are lucky.  So the practical range is going to be the max effective range you can make the kind of hits needed to kill a hog with pistol caliber FMJ.

As far as quickly, tracking, etc.  I guess that is part of the debate; but I'm not expecting instant stops on hogs with subsonic 7.62 at any distance.
View Quote




you are correct that it acts like a pistol caliber velocity FMJ, no expansion and pass right through.  I work at a gun range and talk to many people that have used it subsonic with a can.  It is very quiet but performance as far as trajectory and expansion is not good at subsonic speeds.  Just for the heck of it we sometimes dig them out of the berm and even in straight sand they never expand.

I am just thinking that the 208 Amax might be the best subsonic bullet for the blackout.  It is to fragile at real rifle velocities for hunting but may be the ticket at subsonic.  I would hope that it mushrooms a little or breaks up or tumbles.  Anything but going straight through would be nice.  If someone was to come up with a bullet just for 300 BO that worked at subsonic velocities they would own the market as there is none that I can think of.
Link Posted: 8/30/2014 6:00:17 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:




you are correct that it acts like a pistol caliber velocity FMJ, no expansion and pass right through.  I work at a gun range and talk to many people that have used it subsonic with a can.  It is very quiet but performance as far as trajectory and expansion is not good at subsonic speeds.  Just for the heck of it we sometimes dig them out of the berm and even in straight sand they never expand.

I am just thinking that the 208 Amax might be the best subsonic bullet for the blackout.  It is to fragile at real rifle velocities for hunting but may be the ticket at subsonic.  I would hope that it mushrooms a little or breaks up or tumbles.  Anything but going straight through would be nice.  If someone was to come up with a bullet just for 300 BO that worked at subsonic velocities they would own the market as there is none that I can think of.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Well, at subsonic speeds, I am assuming any 7.62 diameter bullet is essentially going to act like a pistol caliber FMJ when it hits - no fragmenting or expansion, maybe tumbling if you are lucky.  So the practical range is going to be the max effective range you can make the kind of hits needed to kill a hog with pistol caliber FMJ.

As far as quickly, tracking, etc.  I guess that is part of the debate; but I'm not expecting instant stops on hogs with subsonic 7.62 at any distance.




you are correct that it acts like a pistol caliber velocity FMJ, no expansion and pass right through.  I work at a gun range and talk to many people that have used it subsonic with a can.  It is very quiet but performance as far as trajectory and expansion is not good at subsonic speeds.  Just for the heck of it we sometimes dig them out of the berm and even in straight sand they never expand.

I am just thinking that the 208 Amax might be the best subsonic bullet for the blackout.  It is to fragile at real rifle velocities for hunting but may be the ticket at subsonic.  I would hope that it mushrooms a little or breaks up or tumbles.  Anything but going straight through would be nice.  If someone was to come up with a bullet just for 300 BO that worked at subsonic velocities they would own the market as there is none that I can think of.


Lehigh Defense makes an effective expanding bullet for 300blk. Not cheap though. Trajectory is a non-issue, it's like any subsonic ammo. You just have to know your dope.

Link Posted: 8/30/2014 6:52:40 PM EDT
[#6]
wow that looked pretty good. I have  never seen those before.
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 7:10:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




you are correct that it acts like a pistol caliber velocity FMJ, no expansion and pass right through.  I work at a gun range and talk to many people that have used it subsonic with a can.  It is very quiet but performance as far as trajectory and expansion is not good at subsonic speeds.  Just for the heck of it we sometimes dig them out of the berm and even in straight sand they never expand.

I am just thinking that the 208 Amax might be the best subsonic bullet for the blackout.  It is to fragile at real rifle velocities for hunting but may be the ticket at subsonic.  I would hope that it mushrooms a little or breaks up or tumbles.  Anything but going straight through would be nice.  If someone was to come up with a bullet just for 300 BO that worked at subsonic velocities they would own the market as there is none that I can think of.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well, at subsonic speeds, I am assuming any 7.62 diameter bullet is essentially going to act like a pistol caliber FMJ when it hits - no fragmenting or expansion, maybe tumbling if you are lucky.  So the practical range is going to be the max effective range you can make the kind of hits needed to kill a hog with pistol caliber FMJ.

As far as quickly, tracking, etc.  I guess that is part of the debate; but I'm not expecting instant stops on hogs with subsonic 7.62 at any distance.




you are correct that it acts like a pistol caliber velocity FMJ, no expansion and pass right through.  I work at a gun range and talk to many people that have used it subsonic with a can.  It is very quiet but performance as far as trajectory and expansion is not good at subsonic speeds.  Just for the heck of it we sometimes dig them out of the berm and even in straight sand they never expand.

I am just thinking that the 208 Amax might be the best subsonic bullet for the blackout.  It is to fragile at real rifle velocities for hunting but may be the ticket at subsonic.  I would hope that it mushrooms a little or breaks up or tumbles.  Anything but going straight through would be nice.  If someone was to come up with a bullet just for 300 BO that worked at subsonic velocities they would own the market as there is none that I can think of.


208 Amax will not expand at subsonic velocities. At best you will get some yaw and lose the ballistic tip and slightly smoosh the front. The 194gr Lehigh defense are some of the most wicked expanding subsonics around. There is also Outlaw State Bullets that will expand at subsonic velocities but with the Lehigh costing close to the same and feeding better in the AR. The choice is clear if you want subsonic expansion you need to get the Lehigh.

After testing the Lehigh Defense rounds I now use them as my primary home defense in my 300BLK. I load the top 10 rounds with the subs and the other 20 with the Barnes Black tip. I figure if I need more than 10 rounds that someone is shooting back and it is time to go louder.


As for the OP question. You can get out to 300 yards and still expect the Lehigh to expand. I have shot a lot of subs at around 300 to 400 yards and they are more than capable of accurately getting out there but just like you said though you would have to range pretty well to calculate the proper hold over other wise you will shoot over or under the target. For me if I am shooting at pigs/coyotes I keep the subs within 150 yards as I can easily put it on the target at that range without worrying to much about the drop. If you want to punch paper at ranges up to 500 it is possible as the BC is a hell of a lot better than a .45 ACP.
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 2:22:02 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
After testing the Lehigh Defense rounds I now use them as my primary home defense in my 300BLK. I load the top 10 rounds with the subs and the other 20 with the Barnes Black tip. I figure if I need more than 10 rounds that someone is shooting back and it is time to go louder.
View Quote

Have you not seen any issues with feeding? The guy in the video about stated that he cannot load for than 4 in a "standard" mag (looked like a Pmag to me) without them binding up.
What mags are you using?
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 3:37:04 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

Have you not seen any issues with feeding? The guy in the video about stated that he cannot load for than 4 in a "standard" mag (looked like a Pmag to me) without them binding up.
What mags are you using?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
After testing the Lehigh Defense rounds I now use them as my primary home defense in my 300BLK. I load the top 10 rounds with the subs and the other 20 with the Barnes Black tip. I figure if I need more than 10 rounds that someone is shooting back and it is time to go louder.

Have you not seen any issues with feeding? The guy in the video about stated that he cannot load for than 4 in a "standard" mag (looked like a Pmag to me) without them binding up.
What mags are you using?


Depending on the bullet & mag, sometimes you have to file down the top 1/2 inch of ribs inside the mag, or they push the fatter projectiles together in the magazine. It's common with Pmags and big subs. I have no problem with my Lancer 20 rounders, which I only use for 300blk since they are distinctive & translucent.
Link Posted: 8/31/2014 4:12:19 PM EDT
[#10]
I will echo a few things and then just give my opinion  based on actual use.

if using a properly designed bullet, it will expand/fragment at sub velocities.  I have proven that a white tail can be taken down with subsonic 300blk at  less then 380ftlbs of energy and a non expanding bullet.  I don't recommend it, but it can in fact be done.

while tumbling has been recorded to happen with non expanding subsonic 30 cal bullets in the 300 whisper, 300blk, in my testing, I have found it only to be consistent when using a slower twist barrel, ie. 1 in 10.  my 1 in 7,1 in 8.5, and 1 in 8 while they will produce tumbling,  continually do so at a point when it would have exited a game animal

if one is going to use a 300blk subsonic for hunting, you need to use one of the following in no particular order

lehigh defense 194 maximum expansion, (this has had reported lack of penetration issues)
lehigh defense 174gr controlled fracturing
outlaw state various copper jacketed lead core hollow points
cast hollow point ( my personal favorite)

anything else is not going to expand at sub velocities.  as Recoil said, with the Amax, the best you can hope for consistently is that the tip will break off and it "might" tumble

as far as distance.  it is going to have to be limited by the indiviudal shooter.

While i have no doubt my cast hollow point will do some serious damage at 400 yds.  my range estimation is iffy at being precise enough at that distance to try it.  100 yds is good for me

Link Posted: 8/31/2014 7:14:24 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Have you not seen any issues with feeding? The guy in the video about stated that he cannot load for than 4 in a "standard" mag (looked like a Pmag to me) without them binding up.
What mags are you using?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
After testing the Lehigh Defense rounds I now use them as my primary home defense in my 300BLK. I load the top 10 rounds with the subs and the other 20 with the Barnes Black tip. I figure if I need more than 10 rounds that someone is shooting back and it is time to go louder.

Have you not seen any issues with feeding? The guy in the video about stated that he cannot load for than 4 in a "standard" mag (looked like a Pmag to me) without them binding up.
What mags are you using?


In the video he was using the older 200gr bullet. They now sell the 194gr that has been designed specifically to feed in the AR while keeping the exact same expansion characteristics. I have shot around 100 rounds of the ammo before I would use it as my home defense (would have loved to shoot more but at over a $1.40 a shot that is about all I could afford). I tested it in a couple gun and every one of them fed flawlessly from the magazine. I tried precision shooting, rapid shooting and even one full mag dump all without a single hiccup.
Link Posted: 9/1/2014 7:01:01 PM EDT
[#12]
out law state bullets work for sure but much like garry 100 yds is where I draw the line with subs .

Link Posted: 9/2/2014 6:37:32 AM EDT
[#13]
Just saw this video of Hickok45 plinking 220gr subs from a 300BLK with open sights at 230 yards on a target about the size of a mans chest. It took him 3 tries from the standing position to find the target and after it was very repeatable as every other shot hit.

Hickok45 shooting subs at 230 yards



Link Posted: 9/2/2014 12:13:40 PM EDT
[#14]
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Just saw this video of Hickok45 plinking 220gr subs from a 300BLK with open sights at 230 yards on a target about the size of a mans chest. It took him 3 tries from the standing position to find the target and after it was very repeatable as every other shot hit.

Hickok45 shooting subs at 230 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff9JbtkzxOU
View Quote


You can hear the difference between 230 yards and 100 yards.

Effective range I am sticking to 100 yards and in for hunting , thanks for the video.

HTXH
Link Posted: 9/3/2014 5:55:25 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:


You can hear the difference between 230 yards and 100 yards.

Effective range I am sticking to 100 yards and in for hunting , thanks for the video.

HTXH
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Just saw this video of Hickok45 plinking 220gr subs from a 300BLK with open sights at 230 yards on a target about the size of a mans chest. It took him 3 tries from the standing position to find the target and after it was very repeatable as every other shot hit.

Hickok45 shooting subs at 230 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff9JbtkzxOU


You can hear the difference between 230 yards and 100 yards.

Effective range I am sticking to 100 yards and in for hunting , thanks for the video.

HTXH



Hog,

Not to be an ass but you do understand that the sound to the microphone is over twice the distance from the 230 yard target than the one at 100 yards? Because the difference in energy at the 100 yard and 230 yard is almost negligible.

Due to the round being subsonic and therefore not having to push a supersonic shock wave through the air which creates a ton of drag. Along with a great BC the difference in energy at 100 yards and 230 yards is less than 45 ft LB. and when you are talking around 500 ft LB of total energy the bullet is carrying you would be hard press to notice the difference in the sound hitting a steel plate if the distance to the microphone was the same.

To take it even further out. If you started with 1050 fps at the muzzle you would still have 818 fps at 1000 yards.

When shooting subs if you feel that you can take the animal in the first 100 yards you can easily take it out to 200 yards as I said the energy for expansion and penetration is almost the same.

What I do is set my zero at 200 yards for subsonic ammo and the maximum deviation for bullet impact within the 200 yard range is 16 inches. You just have to remember to aim low as the hog gets closer in from the 200 yards.
Link Posted: 9/3/2014 12:14:13 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:



Hog,

Not to be an ass but you do understand that the sound to the microphone is over twice the distance from the 230 yard target than the one at 100 yards? Because the difference in energy at the 100 yard and 230 yard is almost negligible.

Due to the round being subsonic and therefore not having to push a supersonic shock wave through the air which creates a ton of drag. Along with a great BC the difference in energy at 100 yards and 230 yards is less than 45 ft LB. and when you are talking around 500 ft LB of total energy the bullet is carrying you would be hard press to notice the difference in the sound hitting a steel plate if the distance to the microphone was the same.

To take it even further out. If you started with 1050 fps at the muzzle you would still have 818 fps at 1000 yards.

When shooting subs if you feel that you can take the animal in the first 100 yards you can easily take it out to 200 yards as I said the energy for expansion and penetration is almost the same.

What I do is set my zero at 200 yards for subsonic ammo and the maximum deviation for bullet impact within the 200 yard range is 16 inches. You just have to remember to aim low as the hog gets closer in from the 200 yards.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just saw this video of Hickok45 plinking 220gr subs from a 300BLK with open sights at 230 yards on a target about the size of a mans chest. It took him 3 tries from the standing position to find the target and after it was very repeatable as every other shot hit.

Hickok45 shooting subs at 230 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff9JbtkzxOU


You can hear the difference between 230 yards and 100 yards.

Effective range I am sticking to 100 yards and in for hunting , thanks for the video.

HTXH



Hog,

Not to be an ass but you do understand that the sound to the microphone is over twice the distance from the 230 yard target than the one at 100 yards? Because the difference in energy at the 100 yard and 230 yard is almost negligible.

Due to the round being subsonic and therefore not having to push a supersonic shock wave through the air which creates a ton of drag. Along with a great BC the difference in energy at 100 yards and 230 yards is less than 45 ft LB. and when you are talking around 500 ft LB of total energy the bullet is carrying you would be hard press to notice the difference in the sound hitting a steel plate if the distance to the microphone was the same.

To take it even further out. If you started with 1050 fps at the muzzle you would still have 818 fps at 1000 yards.

When shooting subs if you feel that you can take the animal in the first 100 yards you can easily take it out to 200 yards as I said the energy for expansion and penetration is almost the same.

What I do is set my zero at 200 yards for subsonic ammo and the maximum deviation for bullet impact within the 200 yard range is 16 inches. You just have to remember to aim low as the hog gets closer in from the 200 yards.


You're not being an ass, you're making a valid point about the microphone being 100 yards closer.

Also a valid point on the efficiency of the round from 0 - 200 yards.

So can we agree on this?

Bullet selection for hunting subsonic is critical and knowing your dope in 25 yard increments just as critical.

Practice makes perfect but at 1.20 per round that can get expensive for folks to load develop and feel comfortable being consistently accurate beyond 100/200 yards.

HTXH
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