AA2200 is also a bad choice of powder for an 85gr bullet, very bad choice.

Try Re-7, that is the powder of choice for light bullets.

BTW, I've posted the link 25 times, but there is a pdf where all of this was pressure trace tested years ago, and the difference between the correct set up and the SAAMI  set up with spec II ammo was huge, and in the ARP barrels SAAMI ammo was running as low as 43K psi where they were 55k psi in the SAAMI barrels.

These 'hot" loads were only pushing 55K from the ARP barrels, where those exact loads were pushing 77K psi in a SAAMI barrel. That's a proof load. In one instance, one load was ripping the case head nearly apart in the SAAMI barrel and popping the primer out, but in the spec II it was only a light swipe.

There is a huge difference.


BTW, we do have some mid weight , high BC bullets available, they're just expensive, but they're supersonic out to about 1200 yards from a 16" barrel. It's cheaper to shoot the G for long range, but the 6.8 can do just as well if you're willing to pay.

Think of it this way.

Harrison at ARP makes both the .264 and the 6.8. He knows as much or more about both, and has pushed them both as hard or harder than anyone, remember his superbolt and big bolt for the 6.5G is highly regarded for allowing hand loaders to push the G.

He has pushed both to and beyond their limits, yet he still put the challenge out there.

He knows what they'll both do, and that is why he's comfortable with the challenge.

Still, all this talk, and nobody has taken him up on it.

Now for me, if I was going to shoot a long range ar15 most of the time, I might go G, simply because of how easy to find and cheap the high BC bullets are. Well I might, but I might go with one of Harrison's wildcat 6.5s that give an extra 100-200fps over the Grendel from the same barrel length, or the 270AR that he has now.

The .270AR fires , from an 18" barrel, a 120SST at 2860fps, or a 130gr Berger VLD from a 20" at 2800fps, or a 110gr bullet at 3000fps from a 18-20inch barrel.

I got 3212fps from my ARP 16", so that sounds about right, granted I only put 10 rounds through the chronograph.

That's hardly surprising, since Harrison's challenge was set up in such a way as to play to a 6.8 strong point: the high muzzle velocity attainable with handloaded ammo. Couple that with expensive custom bullets which have a fairly high BC, and I have little doubt that 6.8 would win.

Now, consider a challenge wherein it'd be required to use only factory ammo, with the same make and model of bullets (for example, SMK vs SMK, or SST vs SST) in each caliber.

Do you think 6.8 SPC would still beat 6.5 Grendel (with 16" barrels in each), up close, in the middle, and out at 1000?

I got put of this after my little poem got pulled.
But it is never ending is it not.

I started making satire out of it after watching the Grendel proponents twisting everything that was being said.

For the OP or anyone interested in the 6.8 SPCII:
While there are many alternate calibers out there the 6.8 is a very diverse and capable cartridge.
There is much information for handloaders, a treasure trove at the 68forums.
Ammo prices continue to come down and availability keeps going up.
It is a cartridge you can invest in with confidence, it is here to stay.
Many people that own multiple calibers of black guns say the 6.8 has become their favorite.
I have found this to be true for myself.

For me the best referal is from a person that has experienced something.
If I see an ad for a resturant, I may try it out.
If someone recomends it, I am much more likely to try it because I know someone else did and liked it.

Its the same way with the 6.8, it comes highly refered. There are many happy customers.

Stay safe fellow BRD friends.

You done said it better than anyone could right there Yama.

Looking over the chart, both the 6.8 and Grendel ROCK!!!! and both give the AR-15 platform some BITE.

I like ARP Barrels, they shoot great, and the Melonite finish is Kick Ass.  Superbolts don't suck either.

In 6.8 I like the cheap(vs new brass in 6.8 and Grendel) Once fired Federal Brass, and the 110 Gr Accubond 2nds, AA2200 I load to 2700fps in the 16 inch rifle(2840fps in the 20inch)

In the Grendel, the Hornady 123 Amax at sub $1 a round is the BOMB, 2550 fps from an 18 inch ARP 264.  I loaded up on the Nosler 123 HPBT when they first came out in the 1k boxes, I have enough to burn my barrel down,lol.  CFE-223 pushes them 2600 fps in the 18 inch APR barrel(amazing to me in an AR-15 Platform), I wish I had enough brass to load them ALL !!

Either one can suit me just fine, but I have uses for both of them.

6.5 Grendel, Shooting steel or paper works great for me, and the slick BC helps in the Colorado and Utah wind(or the worst Wyoming wind).  my oldest daughter hunts with this rifle, 123 gr SSTs with once fired Hornady brass, I'm trying not to loose my Lapua cases.

6.8, loaded up with a bonded bullet(don't know if it's barrier blind, 110 AB), I feel good having in the Home, garage and shop, and if out on the property where I might have a trespasser in a truck, the 110 ABs are kick ass.  With the Federal Once fired Brass, it was cheaper to fill the ammo boxes with. 120gr SSTs for deer, and 110 ABs for Pigs, both of these bag many rocks as well.

If we ever have to bug out, the 6.8 and Grendel gather dust, we leave with 5.56s

PW, thanks for that info on the 115s in the 6.8, I bought some of the blems, I hope I get 2700fps with them, I'll shoot some longer range steel with them!!

6.8 or 6.5 Grendel, they both are winners, although I'm still looking for more 6.5 Grendel brass, prices are dropping and I think AA dropped the Lapua stuff, time to hit the Grendel board and do some research.

I'll pimp ARP, buy 6.8 or 264 gARP, and SMILE.  I hear rumors, more 264 barrels soon, I think I'll buy another.

I bought dies for the 270AR, but no barrel yet, if I need a step up in horse power, I might go this route, I think at 1000m it gently out paces the Grendel with a 130(WAG on my part, I think the 130's BC is just over .500).

Been working on a buddy to go this route, as he wants 1100 pounds at 300 yd . But then he also wants to be able to buy ammo if needed.

Anyone got a barrel and load combo for the 6.8 that hits the 1100# @ 300yd , would be for Whitetail and piggys

20" barrel 120gr SST at 2650 should get him the energy he wants. 29-29.5gr 1200R.  There are other combinations that will produce the same velocity.

Harrison at ARPerformance also has a Six5 coming out soon.
Its basically the Grendel based on a 6.8 case.
With what he shows so far in an 18in barrel it matches the Grendel or exceeds it.
It uses 6.8 bolts and mags and shoots any 6.5 bullet the Grendel can.
Its not limited pressure wise like a Grendel is due to the bolt face size.
If your a reloader and looking at 6.5 this new wildcat is worth looking at.
If you have a 6.8 all that's needed is a barrel or upper and your shooting 6.5 higher BC bullets.

He also has what he calls an AR12 in .308 coming out, as light as an AR15.
I am considering this for my next project.

A 95gr TTSX Barnes bullet loaded with 29.6grs AA2200 in SSA, S&B, or Hornady once fried brass, OAL 2.295, CCI 450 primer.
16in Bison barrel (ARP barrel would be slightly faster). .7 MOA average with 10 rounds fired.
2850fps at 10ft out (shooting chrony alpha master), 2198fps retained at 300 yards.
Muzzle energy 1713 ft-lb, retained energy 1019 ft-lb at 300 yards.
Calculations using Strelok app, 2.46 MOA , 7.72 inch holdover zeroed at 200 yards.
Bullet designed to open down to 1600fps, testing shows bullet retains over 95% of its weight.

If I were shooting my 6.8 at Elk to 375 yards this is what I would use.
This is my go to 6.8 load.

I thought the Six5 work was Black Hole Weaponry's? They posted a lengthy thread on that right here within the past year IIRC.  It's limited to lighter, shorter bullets in the AR15, and can't load the 107gr SMK, 108gr Scenar, 123gr high BC pills, and higher due to case length and OAL limitations of the AR15 magazine well.  If you do some simple math, you will quickly see that the Six5 is a non-starter of a cartridge if the goal is to compete with the Grendel in the AR15. If the goal is to make a 30 Remington based case that can shoot the lower end of 6.5mm pills for wildcattters who don't care about BC, then mission accomplished.

Also, bolt face diameter is not the limiting factor in pressure, barrel tennon wall thickness is for any cartridge that is larger than a 5.56, and the 5.56 is on the edge with pressure already. There are substantial numbers of standard 6.5 Grendel bolts that are used in testing proof loads, full auto reliability testing, and general extreme use that have yet to fail.  A properly made bolt with very stringent attention to detail in the metallurgy is more than adequate to handle increased pressures in the 6.5 Grendel. That isn't the limiting factor though, and is only one part of the critical components that contain pressure.

Pressure limitations are dictated by the containment vessel dimensions, and there simply isn't enough meat to push fatter cases to pressures much over 50,000psi in the AR15.  This idea that making stronger bolts fixes everything and we can throttle up the pressures with thinner chamber walls wouldn't pass the drawing board in one of the big firearms manufacturer's design teams.  Physics says no, but don't let that get in the way of the "me first, I want it now!" generation.

I went through this whole chain of thought years ago. I wanted an AR Performance BR bolt and extension, not realizing that the chamber walls were the limiting factor here.  Unless the chamber wall thickness is increased, you don't get to push the pressures and get away with it for long.  While the bolt may last, you can experience chamber wall expansion so that instead of having a straight, slightly tapered cylinder, it bows outwards.  Even if this happens ever so slightly, imagine what the consequences will be during the next firing sequence.

This is exactly what occurred when D-Tech had their WSSM tested at higher pressures. The weakest area was the thread relief:




The problem here is listening to the devil on one shoulder who says, "You can push the pressures, you just need CMV and melonited barrels, with a larger and stronger bolt....yes, do it! Do it!  Yessssssss...."   Now you have a surface hardness that is very high on the Rockwell scale, but the substrate material of the steel is still ductile.  What happens when you subject this type of steel arrangement to repeated, semi auto fire with loads that don't have a good Factory of Safety because of the wall thickness being too thin?

Physics says something has got to give if you push the pressures, and it isn't the bolt.  The Army already did this type of testing on various barrels with these treatments back in the 1950's, and the melonite/nitrocarburized barrels did not pass the tests for high volume and full auto firing.  They also tested barrels that had been coated with Nickel Boron, as well as Titanium Nitride.

From ARPerformance site
Check it out there is even more info there:

Due  fall 2014

4150 CMV Six5  (wildcat based on 6.8 case)fluted SPR profile barrel with a chamber designed for the Hornady 123gr Amax and SST. They have a Hybrid 5R rifling with 1 in  8.5 twist .

We have discontinued the 264LBC/Grendel to make what we believe is a better mousetrap. By trimming the 6.8 case back to 1.620-1.625 max the 123 Amax or SST can be loaded to the cannelure of a 41mm long 6.8 case and fit in the Magpul pmags or PRI 6.8 mags. Still there is enough full diameter bullet to properly align the bullet in the freebore.
IMO this combo fixes a few problems the Grendel/264 has.
We don't need special extractors.
The 6.8 bolts are stronger than the Grendel/264 bolts so they can run at a higher pressure instead of the 52,000 psi maximum that the Grendel has. Never worry about breaking a Grendel bolt again.
Pmags! when used with LWRCs Six8 lowers...The Grendel and PPC based cats have always had feeding problems and only 1 brand of mags.
This cartridge uses 6.8 mags from PRI, Magpul, C Products Defense and ASC.
More brass choices between Hornady, SSA, Federal, S&B, Nosler and Remington
The 4150 11595E steel Melonite(QPQ) treated barrels we sell will last twice as long as stainless barrels-60 rockwell VS 28-30 of the stainless. The  final finish meets or exceeds stainless steel corrosion resistance.  416 stainless barrels .980" in diameter do not meet the 2:1 burst/hoop strength safety ratio required by the firearms industry standards in anything larger than the 5.56. We only use the stronger 4150 11595 E barrel steel in all of our barrels.

6.8 bushing dies with a .288-.290 bushing and trimming the case to 1.620" is all that is needed. 1 in 8.5" twist, 5R rifling. The chamber has a .297 neck 1.5 degree throat angle for better accuracy and to prevent splitting the case necks from over working the brass.  Barrel is a medium weight  contour, mid gas and uses a standard .750 gas block. Muzzles are threaded 5/8-24 for a better selection of flash hiders and brakes.  These barrels will use standard 6.8 bolts.
Barrels are headspaced using 6.8 headspace gauges. 6.8 Bushing dies are used to resize the brass, a special die is NOT needed.  .  Barrel only does not include any other parts unless added below as an option.

If your priority is shooting targets out to 300yds or rec shooting to 600  with some hunting then the 264/6.5 makes sense, there are some very good .264 dia. match bullets.

The 100 Nosler, and 100 gr Barnes TTSX will reach apx 2775 from a 18" barrel using 27.5-28.2 gr of 10 x. Work this load up slowly. The 100gr Lapua is a very good target bullet in the same range ( 27.8gr of RE10x with the 100 Lapua loaded to 2.295 is under 1/2moa)  The Hornady ammo loaded with the 123 Amax is very accurate out of these barrels.

They didn't have "Melonite" in the 50s.
That is a wssm case(.555" dia) that runs at 65,000psi made by Olympic Arms you are showing, not a 308(.473) or 6.8(.422) diameter case that operate at 58,000psi.
A 4150 CMV barrel with a 308 diameter chamber is stronger than a stainless barrel with a Grendel chamber. Do the math, or let everyone else do the math.
Cartridges based on the 30 Rem AR have nothing to do with anything here.
The Six5 is based on a 6.8 case 41mm long. It is not the same as BHWs 6.5 x 6.8, the bullets do not need to be stuffed back in the case.  The Six5 was designed specifically for the 123gr Amax and SST and will shoot the Nosler 120, 100 and many more hunting bullets in that range. Since the 6.8 mags allow loading to 2.3" we gain .040" over factory Grendel ammo.

Harrison is a sharp guy, and it doesn't surprise me that he's created something the 6.8 SPC should have been from the beginning. (And then we coulda all been best buds right from the start!)

He's smart enough to know that stubby bullets were never the way to go and has finally entered the wild, wonderful world of high BC. "Better late than never," as they say.

However, why spend your evenings trimming down 6.8 cases to duplicate 6.5 Grendel performance now that 6.5 Grendel steel-case ammo has arrived?

It was mentioned above, the 6.8 bolt is stronger than the Grendel.

The 95 TTSX is my choice as well.
Haven't been able to get my hands on any AA2200, I've been using Rel 7 or H322 (need to check my notes).
Easily 0.7 MOA from my 16" lightweight barrel.

Actually what I am saying is if you want to shoot higher BC 6.5 bullets to target shoot with once fully set up with the 6.8 you can get an upper that does just that.
Using all the same 6.8 reloading supplies and tools, just need some 6.5 projectiles.
As well you would get 2 higher end calibers in the AR using all the same mags, bolts etc.
Like the 5.56 and .300 ACC, but some may feel better.
Here it comes.....wait for it.......without the bolt and feeding concerns it seems are associated with the G word.

A 16in 6.8 SPCII upper and a 18in Six5 upper for one lower.

So for less total investment......
It would be like Doublemint farking gum, 2 2 2 AR's in one, lol.

Hmmmmmm Six5, I'll probably be a sucker for that, but can it push a 123 Amax or SST to 2600fps in that 18 inch tube?  I do have some of the older SSA Brass and lots of the Federal cases(they don't last as long as the SSA).

I'll not sell my ARP 264 barrel even if I get a Six5, the Hornady factory 123 amax is to nice of a load, and very convenient if I don't want to do any reloading!!

The steel case 6.5 Grendel, I'll let others test it out, and see if it's something I'll shoot in the future, I hear it's a little slow, but who knows where the loading will progress to in the future.

Yes, it's slow, but, hey, it's cheap! Fortiers says the 100gr FMJ only does about 2500 fps from a 16" barrel. Figure about a 0.420 BC.

Both fast and cheap only applies to certain girls. . . .

If yout main concern is target shooting because lets face it youre not shooting game at 600+ yards with either cartridge, why not go with one of the 6mm variants? The 105gr bergers and bthps pack a nice BC and higher velocity while being cheaper. The argument for sub 600yd performance for the 6.8 and G really isnt much difference in performance IMO. Ive been considering a "hot rod" AR cartridge for 600yd fclass if for no other reason than to show you dont need a bolt gun to do well and thus far have been considering the BHW 6x6.8 or the 6mm fat rat.

Late. Later. Later still. Oops... Too late!

Yeah, if only the SPC developers had created H's Six5, they would've made a General Purpose Cartridge which might've had a better chance of interesting the military than the 6.8 SPC.

I really like the Six5 concept, but wonder if its development may be just too late to compete with the 6.5 Grendel at any level, let alone become a factory ammo offering.

Perhaps some people enjoy case trimming?

Do you really think it's that high? I'm guessing circa 0.390

The bolt strength isn't a problem, pressure containment in the barrel tennon is.  Six5 offers nothing of value over a Grendel.  I can run the 123gr at 2550fps from a 16" Grendel with CFE, but I don't see a very noticeable performance increase between that and factory loads at 2450fps.  The efficiency of the high BC bullets factor in more than velocity, unless you jump up to 300 or more fps, and that isn't happening unless you up the case volume.

The mantra about Grendel bolts breaking is really a moot point, even now in the aftermarket with 9000 series alloy bolts available from at least 4 sources now.  In any caliber, there isn't anything I can do to fix shops that still use 8620 that isn't heat treated carefully.  I don't even buy 5.56 bolts that are 8620.

The fixation with muzzle velocity is more of the problem here than anything else, and we can thank Roy Weatherby for that to a large degree.  It started a really bad trend in the US that created a market where consumers bought into this idea that faster and faster was better somehow, which then spawned the premium bullet market to try and keep the bullets held together so they wouldn't come apart on game.  Think Nosler Partition first, then the rest that followed after (Swift A-Frame, Barnes X, the Interbonds, etc.).

The AR15 just isn't the receiver set you want to be pushing pressures with when using larger diameter cases and much heavier projectiles, hence the Grendel 50,000psi, which is plenty to push projectiles at speeds that play out in the real world like a .308 trajectory, but with less wind drift.  That's what it looks like to me at least when I spot for it, although it has better legs than most of the .308 projectiles as the distance increases.  Sure, the 178gr A-MAX, and heavier/newer target pills for .308 will match it for wind drift and have ~15% more energy on target, but you pay several penalties in rifle weight, recoil (2x as much), muzzle blast, and loss of commonality of the AR15 micro action size and parts.

Or you can not waste all that money, just get factory ready 6.5 Grendel and do both, even with the same factory load 123gr SST or A-MAX, as we've been doing for years.  There isn't anything in the 6.8 bullet line up that offers an advantage for hunting over 6.5mm, and there certainly isn't anything that offers an advantage for target work, so why bother?  As the title says, Why 6.8?

The idea that 6.5mm is limited to a target caliber is ignoring well over a century of hunting experiences, most of which are on large game in Scandinavia, followed by the whole spectrum of game sizes in Africa from warthogs to elephants, medium game in Central Europe, and then the later trend in the US where target shooters realized this caliber smokes the .30 bores in efficiency and especially wind drift.

There are at least 80 different 6.5mm hunting projectiles we could narrow down alone, not counting target pills.  Many of those hunting pills do better than most of the legacy .30 bore target bullets, and the 120gr class of 6.5mm pills have roughly the same BC as your 168gr .308 pills.  The 123gr 6.5mm pills have a better BC than the 175gr .308 SMK, which is a great target bullet for .308, but comes with the typical penalties associated with .308 Winchester (weight, recoil, size, powder consumption, muzzle blast).

I'm not sure what even the few people willing to wildcat would ever gain with the limitations of a 30 Rem-based 6.5mm in the AR15, because you lose major projectile selection, with no performance gain over 6.5 Grendel.  The 6mm variants make sense for some competition shooters, like the 6mm Hagar, which Hornady has made factory-ready brass and dies for. Hornady was smart to increase the case capacity and keep the MAP down.

Your quoting 80 different pills of which most are designed for speed well above what the Grendel will do so stop it already.

You're quoting falsehoods that are being spoon-fed to you by people who know better. I'll bring you up to speed.

6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer and 6.5x55 Swede are legacy cartridges with very moderate velocities.  We're talking mid-2000's in fps. The Grendel duplicates 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer performance, which was used in the early 1900's to kill many elephants in Africa by a very skilled rifleman named W.D.M. Bell.  It was his favorite rifle for killing African game, although he did lean on a 7x57 Mauser more for the 1,011 elephants he killed.



Every 6.5mm projectile we came across in our research for the reloading handbooks is designed with 6.5 Swede strongly in mind, along with some of the other cartridges like the one magnum.  You aren't going to be able to get away with saying that the hunting projectiles were made for the .264 Winchester Magnum, and not the 6.5 Swede. The 6.5 Swede is not that far ahead of the Grendel in terms of performance, unless you use the 6.5 SKAN load data for modern actions, and even then, the projectiles still behave similarly, with maybe a 200yd advantage to the Swede.

As such, the Grendel still can shoot the 160gr Hornady Round Nose SP's, and a few shooters have leaned on those pills for subsonic loads, or nice close-range supersonic heavies like a brush gun.  Penetration on them is very impressive, and they will blow through 4 2-gallon water jugs with ease, lengthwise.

What we found over the years is that there are a wide range of hunting projectiles usable in the 6.5 Grendel, all with their own sets of advantages and compromises.  Most people seem to settle in the 100-130gr range, but a few like the varmint weight pills of 85gr-95gr, while others play around with 140gr.  The newer pills from Nosler and Hornady (pre-Grendel) work fine, and have been used to kill a lot of deer. The Barnes pills meant for the larger cases have been used to harvest elk at distances that would be difficult with any short action cartridge, and still a good marksman's shot only for the magnums.

This picture is pre-123gr SST, 129gr ABLR



Even before the Grendel-in-mind 123gr A-MAX and SST, there were scores of totally viable hunting pills that have been and continue to be used to kill game. Some have even been responsible for twofers on both deer and hogs, and these are legacy bullets. The claim that these pills were designed for speeds well beyond the Grendel depends on what "well beyond" means. If you mean at least 2 of the legacy 6.5mm cartridges, then it's false, and I can find no others that were meant specifically for magnums.

For my uses, the 123gr SST and A-MAX work great, but I like trying different powders with 100gr-130gr as well.  We've been doing some testing with solids in the 85gr-105gr range, and these pills all have BC's above .400 G1.  I'll have some custom-made GS Solids on the way soon, paid for already, with impressive BC and light weight, but I'm already more than happy with the performance of cheap interlock cup and core bullets.

Most of my load development now is solely for work on the reloading handbooks, which several people have alluded to being my "financial interest" in the cartridge.  If you really must know, I'll share a dirty little secret with you that Gunwritr can attest to:  Selling books about guns is a labor of love, not a way of making a living.  Selling reloading books is even smaller of a niche market, and I am one of 3 authors on these projects, the other two being a career weapons development engineer, and a PhD in biomedical engineering (he covers down on the gel testing).

We've worked very hard on doing years of homework now, already coming from solid shooting and reloading backgrounds, and I have spent a ton of time researching, testing, evaluating, subjecting to peer review, editing, and eventually publishing.  So when I make statements about these cartridges, that is where I am coming from.  I was also raised on the .270 Winchester as my first center-fire rifle, a Model 70 Pre-64 Winchester that holds a genuine special place in my upbringing.

That is why I say I would own a 6.8 or 3 if it wasn't for the 6.5 Grendel.  I've always had a soft spot for the .270 Win.  It collects dust now mostly, but I do reload for it and break it out once every 2 years maybe.

I am familar with Mr Bell, my first rifle was an 1895 Mauer in 7x57.
Thank you for the list of projectiles, I will keep them in mind if I build a Six5 upper after the .308 project I am planning next.
I have a co-worker and a friend with Grendel's, so I not unfamiliar with the cartridge.
They both shoot their 5.56 more often.
I am glad your happy with your choice, thats what it is all about after all.

At the range the other day 3 shooters, with tactical .308 bolt guns shooting at the 400 meter steel.
A 4th on the spotting scope calling out hits.
I was working 200 yard zero, 300 yard targets, couple bays over.
I decided to engage the steel as well when the number of shots vs the number of hits was a bit low I thought.
My shots went hit, hit, hit, dead center, dead center, dead center.
I stopped and looked to my left with 4 guys looking at me, what are you shooting was their question.
A 6.8 I replied, I need to look into that he said.
No more was spoken.
True story, I'm happy with mine as well.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance.... Baffle them with bs...... Is there a 6.8 thread LRRPF52 hasn't jumped into spouting his 6.5 mantra on the Internet? Even threads where no one mentions anything about a 6.5 you will find him there spouting disinformation..... Is there any 6.8 fan boys that jump into every Grendel thread on the net? Not that I've seen.... Give it a rest already.

Yes, you will have a lot of retained energy compared to 5.56 with the 6.8 SPC at 300yds...which is close range for the Grendel. I honestly don't have much fun shooting it within 500yds.

I frequently put new shooters on the 16" Grendel, then have them whack 400yd steel 12" plates, then move on to other targets at greater distances.  We're shooting in open desert and foot hills with a lot of shifting wind, and speeds usually well above 10mph.

They're getting my wind calls, which is something I love and enjoy more than shooting, so there's always that, but they are on-target.




The last time I had the Grendel out, it was after we finished an invitational only precision rifle match.  We were shooting out to 1500yds on a 22" gong.  I'm going to need to put a 20 MOA base on my 16" carbine, because I ran out of elevation in the scope of course.  Impacts were very predictable though.  There is Coriolis at that point, but I just get a register shot after dialing in all the atmospherics, and let her fly.  I never would have thought this was a platform that I would be shooting those distances with, ever.

1200yds with the 16" Grendel and factory Hornady 123gr A-MAX really opened up my eyes to what it could do. There should be some more reports on this from me in the near future. Another long range shooter cleaned a Know Your Limits plate rack with my Grendel at 500yds, using my 123gr A-MAX on CFE load at 2500fps mv.

I stayed out of this thread until the disinformation began.  Somebody's gotta do it.

By the way, I notice that not once have you ever pointed out some supporting statements to your ad hominem attacks. Let's just assume that I'm the lowliest of scum-sucking dirtbaggery.  What does that have to do with patently false statements about 6.5 Grendel in a 6.8 thread.

What's getting old are the claims that it isn't good for hunting, needs long barrels, has no real good bullets for it, sucks from SBR's, is being handicapped by AA, etc.

Your copied and pasted mantra about me baffling with BS, (my years of experience and research with the cartridge), is getting really old. Since you can't legitimately debate me in any technical forum, the only thing that seems to be left in your arsenal is attacking my character personally.

I still don't see what that has to do with the technical discussion, which you aren't contributing to.

The thread title is "Why 6.8"

What exactly is going on in that head of yours that can offer something of value to the discussion?

The OP is the one that did bring the 6.5 Grendel up, so technically LRRPF52 isn't doing anything wrong and has every right to put input even.

I personally prefer the 6.8 but I respect the 6.5 Grendel.

+1 on this.
Although you have to admit that every Grendel proponent it is "Mr. One-up".
It has its place, just not in my safe.

ARP barrels are fast shooters.  I don't own one, but I have shot plenty of them.  Their 16" seems to be nearly the same as my 18".

Depends on which "factory" ammo was used, I guess.

6.5x55 is one of, if not the, greatest overall performance cartridge ever.  I love that caliber in a bolt gun.

To LRRPF52
I am in Montana, 10mph wind is dead calm here.
I use my 6.8 to 600 yards which is the longest of the 2 local ranges.
That session I stated was with 95 TTSX.
For my distance rounds I usually use 130gr Berger VLD, 140rg VLD or 130gr Berger Classic hunters.
600 is a cake walk with a 6.8 and its longer projectiles. 1000 is well withing reason.

I'm sure that's true. The point is, back when Harrison presented his "challenge," I suggested the factory ammo alternative in order to have a "like versus like" comparison. Neither he nor other 6.8 fans were willing to go that route, no doubt because it wouldn't stack the deck in favor of their favorite cartridge and guarantee the outcome he wanted.

To be fair, it's not stacking the deck when the 6.8 was borked so long by a shit chamber and barrel twist sent to standards.  I still can not fathom why someone would do something so stupid, but hey, it's in the past now.

I have not seen where Harrison said he was using GS Custom bullets for the 6.8 against factory ammo in the Grendel.
pavlovwolf mentioned there were bullets available, then you jumped on saying that's what was going to be used.
Again I will say, the Grendel has merit, however in 2014 the 6.8 is the better choice for a higher percentage of applications.
That's why its the number 2 caliber being sold in the AR15 platform behind the 5.56, with the .300 black in 3rd place.

Roger that.  Beautiful State by the way.  Yeah, I was surprised when SSA came out with the 140gr VLD load, since the 130gr Classic Hunter has a better BC, and seems to fit well within the constraints of the 6.8 case length and usable ogive length within the AR15 mag well, while offering more mv potential of course.  What are you getting from a 16" barrel with the 130gr Classic?

I asked why guys weren't using it a few years ago, and it seems to work out well.  If I owned a 6.8 and wanted to give the Grendel a run for its money, the 130gr Classic Hunter would be the bullet to do it with.  You wouldn't see much difference at distance, provided it can be shot accurately, which shouldn't be an issue given what I've seen from many of the 6.8 pipes.  It doesn't have quite the BC of the 123gr 6.5mm's, and is very costly, but it's a nice bullet to have in the quiver.  On a relatively calm day, 1000yds wouldn't be a problem, especially at Montana elevations.

The Hornady 120gr SST is a great load in 6.8, especially when figuring in cost and performance. The box ammo is nothing to scoff at either, and is probably one of the best sellers in the 6.8 factory ammo line up, just as the 123gr A-MAX and 123gr SST sell like crack for the 6.5 Grendel.



The one area the 6.8 has more options in is ammo availability, but with the introduction of steel case for the Grendel, that's going to change things quickly in the market I think.  A lot of people really thought 6.8 was going to be adopted by SF, SOCOM, and possibly even big Army, which was a major over-sell, so some big names got on board quickly to try to achieve market position early.  Hunters especially picked up on it, and created enough demand that many shops in the industry saw numbers they liked, and jumped on the wagon as well.  This all happened in a very fast time span, which unfortunately led to the reamer disaster with the supplier, and for whatever reason, Remington let that reamer move forward for SAAMI submission and the pressure testing.

We could, and do make the argument that the 6.5 Grendel offers things that the 6.8 does not, while covering down on the 6.8 capabilities as well.  The counter to that is usually that the 6.8 has Federal on board with the military ammunition, AP, etc.

I'm not sure what market potential there is even worth pursuing with new metallic cartridges for the military with LSAT evolution, so while some Arab nations sporadically buy new toys, it doesn't mean much for the American consumer unless that ammunition production bleeds into civilian channels, which I think has happened to some degree with the 6.8 and the Federal Fusion MSR.

The interesting thing to watch now is how the barrel makers will respond to the 6.5 Grendel steel case, as there are some important details about barrel making with the Grendel that aren't for the "me" generation that seems to be taking over the manufacturing industry.

The "bleed ammo" is not the 115gr Fusion MSR, that is made for the american public.
The XM86GD from Federal with the 90gr Gold Dot bonded is the overflow "target" ammo they contracted.

Also its not just Federal, all of ATK plus Hornady, Nosler, Berger, Barnes that are on the 6.8 bandwagon now

Again bs....I've played your game and debated your crap many a times in many a threads....i no longer waste my time with such nonsense because I have a life and it's not worth my time having the same debate over and over with you using cherry picked data ...or old data...or old chamber data....etc etc....you know exactly what you do in these threads so play dumb if you like...I'll no longer debate but I'll definitely point out your behavior so new people can do some research and make their own mind up on the cartridges and if the things you post are accurate.

The SST is a decent round, but it has a velocity issue even hand loaded. Some of the guys still have them, but the old Barnes banded solid that is no longer in production was far better than the 120SST. The bearing surface on the SST is much higher, and the BC is lower.

They were pushing the Barnes banded 120gr  about 150fps faster than the factory Hornady SST. Hell, the 130gr Speer was getting 2600fps in an 18" barrel 4 years before the AA2200 powder showed up, which has given us more velocity.

I find it incomprehensible, too. It doesn't seem to have been to Remington's benefit to intentionally sabotage their own cartridge.

But, I have to disagree that H's challenge was not meant to favor 6.8 SPC. Otherwise, why would he be opposed to using factory ammo* with bullets of the same make and model in both calibers? It seems to me that if 6.8 SPC is truly better than 6.5 Grendel, proving it wouldn't depend upon results of a shoot-off with only one particular load.

*And I don't mean 6.8 factory ammo should be limited to SAAMI-spec stuff. By all means, use SPCII loads such as that from Wilson Combat, or SSA Tactical.

Nor have I. Why are you bringing it up???

I never mentioned GS Custom, nor did I say H wanted to pit a GSC handload against factory Grendel ammo.

In which applications is 6.8 better, and by what standard of measure?

My "RECCE" 6.8 has the ARP 16" scout profile barrel.
I think it's a combination of the chamber, the 5R rifling, the 1/11.25 twist and the melonite finish.
That thing generates higher velocities than my Cardinal Armory barrel and is extremely accurate.

So you ran out of gas and quit...roger that. But you took the time to post anyway and make a little splash.

Seems unworthy of debating.  Your posts on other forums are the same, with no supporting data, just claims of BS.

Your debating coefficient is weak.

Ummm, has anyone noticed it has been since page 2 the OP has bothered to chime into his own thread?

I wonder why that is...

Seriously, this back & forth banter of "Mine is better than yours" is getting old... like 4 pages ago

Like watching a train wreck.

I am getting just over 2400fps out of the 130gr Classic Hunter, with H335.
I have quite a few more powders to play with that I have yet to try.

I think what everyone is tired of is the negative whack you guys put on everything thats happening it the 6.8 world.
For instance,
Palmetto State Armory. 19 6.8 rounds listed, 7 in stock right now, one of them is the XM68GD that "may" as you say be available. I can get the XM68GD whenever I want.
Grendel, 1 round listed, out of stock.

SGAmmo 6 6.8 rounds listed, all in stock
Grendel, 2 listed, none in stock.

Midway 6.8 24 listed 15 in stock
Grendel, 7 listed, none in stock.

Its this way all over.

The 6.8 is growing in leaps and bounds, but you have drank so much Grendel Koolaid that your stating things without checking it out.
Perhaps I have to in reference to poor short barrel performance and bolt breakage. However the cartridge width and bolt face width are a limit with the Grendel, just as they are with all fat cases in a AR15 bolt.
You state that the "Arabs" like pretty new things.
Yet you tout your new Wolf (read Russian) steel ( which I wont feed into a 5.56 let alone my high end AR) when we are facing trade limitations or worse with good ol Vlad.
Then what do you do with your fired steel cases? Hang um off a magnet? Cause ya cant reload them or sell them to recoup shooting costs.
Your confrontational with all the advances the 6.8 makes because you feel threatened by its abilities perhaps. Like a raged parent "my kid can kick your kids ass".

Run out of gas debating you guys, its really kind of like necrophilia or something, I mean boinking the same dead topic over and over with your circular sometimes nonsense retorts of the great prowess of the amazing multiple reamer Grendel.
The one with limited ammo availability. Cause I cant buy any local 6.5 G Diddy but 6.8 is in numerous stores around here in multiple flavors.

Guess what, my choice is on the rise, its growing, its got big names behind it.
Its easier to get parts for, ammo for, cases for it, all of it.
Wildcats are being built off it, the list goes on.
I can build a .22, .25, 6mm, 6.5, .277 all off my mags and bolts and cases.
Hows that for adaptability?

You want us to get the facts right? Ditto my BRD brothers, Ditto

Very well put

Yup. They seem to buy some of this, and some of that, just as they bought a few 6.8 SBRs for the Royal Guards. But, note that they have made no move to re-equip their armed forces with 6.8 rifles and machine guns.

True. But then, the whole point to steel-case ammo is to have purchase price low enough to make it unnecessary to reload or sell the empties to partially recoup money spent.
It also makes it nice for use in competition and instructional courses where recovering fired cases is impractical or not allowed.
The same abilities that 6.8 fans were looking forward to with Tula steel-case ammo, by the way.

Right back at ya, pardner.

Sounds like the same adaptability as for 6.5 Grendel. Or didn't you know about all the wildcats that have been developed from the Grendel case?